some people like to kill, some don't.
some want the glory, some won't
some commanders tell their troops what to think, ours does
some military people have only war to last them their whole lives, and want it to be a satisfying experience for them
some military people serve only to serve

but a photo of a candidate eating?
have we nothing to do?

So when is Michelle heading to Iraq?

I want photos of her eating with the troops. No, better yet, I want multiple pictures, from different angles, of the troops hand feeding her. I expect to see morsels being placed in her mouth by loving and caring soldiers who understand that if only the "rest of us" had been more like her, the Iraqis would stop blowing up bombs next to their Humvees.

Nice try, Moonbats. The evidence is strong to reveal that you were wrong. What else is new, huh?

Your attempt to debunk the facts has once again demonstrated that the left is lacking. What else is new, huh?

Have a nice day, hippies.

Why is it so surprising to some that the American military would have little or no respect for John Kerry? Why would anyone in the U.S. military trust Kerry across the street? If Kerry wants his picture taken surrounded by troops, he should fly to Hanoi. Maybe he could have the photo op posed in front of the picture of him hanging in the Vietnamese War Museum shaking hands with the enemy while he was still serving in the U.S. Navy.

This is the sound of one moonbat wing flapping.

John Kerry should head over to Jack "Abscam" Murtha's house and party with "Hanoi" Jane.

and then we're going to New Hampshire, and New York... hurraugh!

NW Denizen,

As a veteran, I can say that I would trust John Kerry much further than the chickenhawks in the current administration. He has authored several items of legislation to help military and veterans, while fighting off republican efforts to cut their benefits.

There are several photos of Kerry with troops during his recent Mideast trip posted at Yahoo, btw. And don't ever forget, during the 2004 campaign, every member of his boat crew supported Kerry and campaigned for him, save one - Steve Gardner, who had been reprimanded while serving in Vietnam under Kerry. Odd, that, isn't it? The people who knew Kerry best, his own crew, supported him, when others in the chain of command started trying to smear him? Hmmmm. Sounds a little bit like the enlisted bucking the officers, there. Guess I'll stick with the opinions of the enlisted guys who actually knew Kerry, against some officer who just didn't like that he spoke out against the war when he came home.

TPM said: ""The issue of interpretation lingers, however.""

As a salty shellback, I can vouch for the fact that John Kerry is roundly despised in the military (that includes his former service, the US Navy).

TPM said: ""Can one reasonably conclude on the basis of the photograph (and accompanying testimony) that troops snubbed Kerry during his Iraq visit? Here's another picture of Kerry eating, this from Malkin's Web site""

Sir, I don't understand this malfunction; where do you get it in your head that Senator Kerry holds ANY favor with the military? I know you don't get it by living on our ships, or visiting our bases, or going to a VFW/American Legion luncheon.

Yes, I know some Democrats in the military, but even THEY don't aspire to having the association with Kerry you're suggesting (far from it). And no, I don't think the troops would express their disgust with him in ways that liberals express their disgust right outside our guard shacks. Even if the Senator sat right across from me in a mess hall and sat down without my consent, I probably wouldn't show him overt disrespect. The most I would show him is neglect.

But the fact still stands: anybody serving in the military (especially if your job is to pull triggers/push red buttons) CANNOT abide by what Kerry represents. It's more than just his political philosophy as a liberal. It's the fact that he comfortably stuck a knife in the back of his own men while they were engaging the enemy at war. For that reason, few even pretend to make apologies for him; you can't rationalize that level of betrayal and then turn around and demand the trust and loyalty of the guys around you and say "watch my six."

TPM said: ""Perhaps snubbing, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.""

I say again: Where do you get this impression that Kerry is anything BUT a pariah in the military.

Yes, libs, you're right! The troops DO love John Kerry, despite the tesimony of the soldier who took the picture! The actually LIKE being called idiots! In fact, if the photo in question WERE taken at the time claimed by the soldier who took it, the troops would be MOBBING Kerry instead of finding someplace else to sit! But of course, that's NOT what we see in this shot...maybe the lack of a mob indicates that he's less than lovable with the folks taking the shots.

What we're seeing here is liberal cognitive dissonance- the inability to recognize the obvious, since it interferes with the liberal reality map. If the troops ignore Kerry, it's photoshop. If Steve Gardner says Kerry was a chickensh*t, it's obviously because he was reprimanded. And if Kerry gets hit in his ass with a grain of rice, it's clearly because he was just too quick for the shrapnel!

Thanks Justin!

MH said: ""As a veteran, I can say that I would trust John Kerry much further than the chickenhawks in the current administration.""

Your opinions about John Kerry and George Bush are noted MH. Unfortunately they're also irrelevant. What is at issue here is not what one or two "vets" like ourselves think of John Kerry. The issue is what the BREADTH of the military AT LARGE thinks of John Kerry.

And on that score, the answer is obvious.

Partisan politics aside: if I walked into a Mess and shouted at the top of my lungs:

"Senator John Kerry supports you! John Kerry for President!"

- I would be shouted down in turn by a cacophany of "F**k off" and "Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?" There wouldn't be a cricket chirp of support for my statement. I think most of my shipmates would be less angry and more confused by my display ("John Kerry supports who?!")

If you've really served in the active military, MH, you know this as well as I.

I know there are alot of people who would like to reach for your comments and claim that

"See? There's a vet and he supports John Kerry so it's PROOF that John Kerry is trusted by military personell!"

But no. That's called anecdotal argumentation. The reality is the same although I acknowledge that you trust John Kerry more than the rest of us do. But your's is the exception apart from the overwhelming rule.

PS I hope you don't think of this as an insult, but I was wondering if you could tell me about your experiences in the military. I openly acknowledge that I'm "checking up" on you, but feel free to ask whatever questions you have about my service in turn (within reason, of course). Which branch, what rate/job, & where?

I don't care what the troops think about Kerry or what they think about the Iraq War. Its bigger than "the troops." Bush's megalomania has hurt all Americans.

I don't care what the troops think about Kerry or what they think about the Iraq War.

Well....doah....

and the troops KNOW people like you and Kerry don't give a rats ass about them.

If you ever wandered off the left-plantation and read some of the milblogs you'd know that while being polite and respectful of Kerry's "visit", those that weren't required to be around him, wouldn't have a thing to do with Mr. "Botched Joke" Heinz.

curious43

try here

http://benofmesopotamia.blogspot.com/2006/12/tpmmuckraker-left-and-me.html

MH

Why did Kerry let the statute of limitations run out before filing a libel lawsuit against "Unfit for Command"?

I mean, Kerry's people and DNC lawyers were faxing nasty letters all over the country in 2004 threatening lawsuits against radio and television stations that were running anti-Kerry ads.

And how many days have passed since Kerry promised (and never has) signed the form that would unconditionally release all his military records?

Whoops.... Kerry better hurry back to town, I think Teresa is calling him.

Darleen,

I can't speak for Kerry's actual reasons, but I can post some legal notes on why a lawsuit wouldn't have been helpful to him, even though the smears were false:

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/defamation.html

QUOTE >
"Under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, as set forth by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1964 Case, New York Times v Sullivan, where a public figure attempts to bring an action for defamation, the public figure must prove an additional element: That the statement was made with "actual malice".

(snip)

"Another significant concern is that, even where the statements made by the defendant are entirely false, it may not be possible for a plaintiff to prove all of the elements of defamation. Most people will respond to news that a plaintiff lost a defamation lawsuit by concluding that the allegations were true.

In other words, the plaintiff in a defamation action may be required to expend a considerable amount of money to bring the action, may experience significant negative publicity which repeats the false accusations, and if unsuccessful in the litigation may cement into the public consciousness the belief that the defamatory accusations were true."

< ENDQUOTE.

An example of this occurred with Charlotte Pritt, who in 2006 lost her defamation lawsuit against the WV republicans for lying about her in TV ads during a 1996 campaign. Even though the ad made a claim that was not substantiated in any fact, the jury found that it did not meet the standard of libel. This case was in the courts for 8 years.

So, if Kerry sued, he could lose EVEN IF he was in the right and the liars were in the wrong (which they were and are).

Kerry's military records were unconditionally released to two news outlets, in 2005. Those news outlets reported that nothing significant about his service was in the files they received, that hadn't been in the records he released on his website during the campaign.

Even John Warner (R-VA), on the floor of the Senate, backed up Kerry's service as honorable. I am not sure why you wingers keep looking for something that isn't there....

re darleene reply - thanks for the link - at this point right or left posts are questionable without some real facts to accompany

also MH

The Boston Globe wouldn't release the records they received (and they didn't receive them all..ie no after action reports) for anyone else to look at and they refused to either show the 180 form Kerry signed (which can authorize either limited or unlimited access to records) or answer questions about just which records Kerry selected to release.

Kerry's release was neither unconditional nor complete. (the request went ONLY to Navy archives which often does not carry complete records)

Kerry was for the military, until he was against, then for it, then against it ...

pssst... BW

many of the troops upset with GW is because they don't think he is being TOUGH enough by allowing them to fight as soldiers should ...

they are tired of being shackled with political correctness

no way to win a war

Darlene,

What MH just said.

You're just talking and talking and talking, because you can't accept the fact that a DEMOCRAT was a war hero. If there had been something EXPLOSIVE in that 180, you can bet your bottom dollar it would have been on page 1 of the Globe. You're on a fishing expedition to create doubt, when in fact all the info is out there. You just don't like what that info says: that Kerry was a fine Navy officer who received 3 purple hearts, a Bronze Star, and a Silver Star, and even the officers who later shamelessly turned against him COMMENDED him at the time. That's the truth. Deal with it.

A Young Marine Speaks Out

" I'm sick and tired of this patriotic, nationalistic and fascist crap. ...

When I joined I took an oath. In that oath I swore to protect the Constitution of the United States. I didn't swear to build democracies in countries on the other side of the world under the guise of "national security." I didn't join the military to be part of an Orwellian ("1984") war machine that is in an obligatory war against whoever the state deems the enemy to be so that the populace can be controlled and riled up in a pro-nationalistic frenzy to support any new and oppressive law that will be the key to destroying the enemy. Example given – the Patriot Act. So aptly named, and totally against all that the constitution stands for. President Bush used the reactionary nature of our society to bring our country together and to infuse into the national psyche a need to give up their little-used rights in the hope to make our nation a little safer. The same scare tactics he used to win elections. He drones on and on about how America and the world would be a less safe place if we weren't killing Iraqis, and that we'd have to fight the terrorists at home if we weren't abroad. In our modern day emotive society this strategy (or strategery?) works, or had worked, up until last month's elections. ... "

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/martin-p1.html

Has anyone noted the breathtaking absence of mention of the Bush/Cheney gang on right-wing websites these days- all we hear about is how evil/immoral/incompetant the Dems are- and this entire topic on Kerry is part of it- recast a Democrat as someone that you love to hate, and we'll all forget about 3000 dead Americans looking for non-existant WMD's, plans to send 20,000 more troops into Iraq, which we don't have (while posturing to attack Iran), Osama Bin Laden still free, the squandering of the budget surplus Clinton left us, which BushCo replaced with a massive deficit and no plans to bring it down, a disasterously bungled occupation which has enflamed the Middle East, spawning a new generation of terrorists and creating a huge debt burden, leaving us to borrow massive sums of money from the Communist Chinese who are taking our jobs and oppose nearly all of our foreign policy- is this the Neocon's idea of building a stronger America?
But, hey, there'll always be Democratic leaders that you can hang in effigy for the next few years- maybe if you create enough distraction George and company can sneak out of the White House without a lynch mob forming at the exit.

Darlene said:

"many of the troops upset with GW is because they don't think he is being TOUGH enough by allowing them to fight as soldiers should ...

they are tired of being shackled with political correctness

no way to win a war."

Is that based on your many years in combat, dear? Just curious what your military experience calls for in war winning.

And seriously, criticizing Kerry for release of war records, when the candidiate you (presumably) supported has a significant gap in his service records (that have nothing to do with Marla Mapes, Dan Rather, proportional spacing, or any other wingnuttery) is a little intellectually dishonest.

The facts are these:

Certain rightwing bloggers posted the original picture claiming that the troops were snubbing Kerry. Leftwing sites, such as this, found reasonable circumstantial evidence that the photo was a hoax (one man's EXIF data is another man's proportional spacing). It appears not to be, but in the investigation (copious study of other photos, other angles), it turns out the troops weren't snubbing Kerry.

So the score, sportsfans? Righties are right about the photo authentication and wrong about their initial premise. Lefties appear wrong about their original conspiracies but right about right about the righties' initial premise being wrong.

Got it?

MH said: ""SSG, US Army, 29V, Korea / Germany / Italy / Arizona / Pentagon (some of those were TDY). Yours?""

PO2, USN (H. Discharged 2005), Southern California, Washington, Illinois, Mississippi, Florida. I'll tell you the cities if you tell me ;). Got any interesting sea stories ;D ? When did you serve? MOS? Have you been to any bases recently? How were they?

MH said: ""When I was active duty, I wasn't very politically aware, but I was very disturbed at the right wing noise we were subjected to from official and quasi-official sources.""

Many of my shipmates (including myself) weren't necessarily focused on politics either. We focused more on our daily lives (not unlike normal people, I might add). For us, it was sked21, quals, evolutions, R&R, and the like.

If by "quasi-official" "b.s.", you mean "mass media" and "elite opinion," I'll agree with you to a point. The vast majority our guys don't think highly of the Media or Washington DC types in general either.

MH said: ""Considering that my reaction to the smearboat liars hit job on Kerry was to look up Kerry's 1971 statement, read it thoroughly, and become a strong supporter of the man after reading it, is enough for me to know that I would have reacted similarly had this b.s. been shoveled at me when I was active duty. Except in those days, I probably wouldn't have been able to find a copy of the statement.""

MH, I acknowledge your argument. I've read Kerry's Congressional testimony as well, although I've arrived at completely different conclusions from your own. If memory serves correctly, the "smearboat liars" (as you refer to them) most prolific messages involved re-running tapes of John Kerry's testimony - to the senator’s own chagrin.

At any rate, my emphasis isn't that the military’s opinion of John Kerry is right or wrong. My emphasis is that, for now (and in the foreseeable future), the rank-and-file’s opinion of John Kerry is overwhelmingly negative.

MH said: “”Back to the photo nonsense: this is an interesting take on the event in question (don't know if the html will work on this site, but here goes):

Rosemary2205

7. A relative was there. and said the poor man barely had time to eat for soldiers stopping by the table to shake his hand but even so quite a few soldiers made a point of leaving him be only so he could finish his breakfast. And as you can see by the lunch pic there are plenty of soldier around.””

MH, that is an extraordinary account; so much so that I have no choice but to doubt its veracity, let alone its characterization of the relationship that John Kerry has with the common soldier, sailor & airman. People can say that I’m “denying reality” all they want. I've known enough people throughout the services from the Mess Halls to the Goat Lockers to the Wardrooms to the shore commands to KAFB to Walter Reed to Coronado to overseas stations, etc. I’ve lived with them, gambled with them, watched their backs, bought them drinks, met their children, pulled their heads out of their own asses and had them do the same for me.

The “troops” (as civilians commonly use the term) DO NOT favor John Kerry. To channel an eloquent Arkansas president, the military “loathes” him. When you wipe away all the lights, make-up, parsed language and bullshit, it all comes down to that.

And no, there couldn’t have been that much of a titanic shift since I’ve left the service a year ago. Titanic? Heck, it would have to be miraculous (and I’m not religious).

MH said: “”BTW the claim that Kerry cancelled a press conference because no one would come is not quite true. The military initially set up the press conference before they checked with Kerry. My relative who would have been in the crew to set up the electronics for the press conference was told IN ADVANCE of Kerry's arrival that it had been cancelled on request of John Kerry because this was intended to be a support the troops visit not a photo op.

http://tinyurl.com/yamz6b””

So your relative is telling you that the military from the Brass to the Booter likes Kerry so much that we’re falling over ourselves to shake his hand… Okay, but I feel like a traitor because I must have served in the wrong military these past several years.

MH said: “”You know, it really all comes down to he said/ he said. Different people will report this differently for their ideological reasons.””

No. One of us is right and the other is wrong. And people will find out one way or another when and if they visit a real military base, find some soldiers & sailors drinking in a bar, etc. It really all comes down to that.

The first thing I want to say is Rykehaven and Darleen are trolls don't bother to respond to them. We can see by the posts the right wing is desperate now for anything to try to make the dems look bad including making something out of nothing like Kerry supposedly being "snubbed" by the troops in Iraq. Having been in the military I don't know how I would have reacted had I seen a well known politician in the chow hall since that didn't happen all that often. In fact it never happened when I was in the military. The only person I saw who was well known was the commandant of the marine corps and I saw him twice. The only time I spoke to him was when he spoke to me and that was to say "Thank you sir". For the wingnuts to say Kerry was snubbed is just ludicrous since I'm sure many supported and still support him. Don't be mislead by the chicken hawks in here saying all military personnel are republicans they aren't. We rarely talked politics when I was active duty as was posted above. We had other things on our minds to talk about.

Just for fun:

A link to a 2000 Florida Military Absentee Ballot that the GWBush campaign challenged and had disqualified.

The GOP noise machine has been very succesful in convincing people that Republicans love "the troops" and Democrats would spit on them if given the chance. Any honest examination of the facts demonstrates that this is hardly the case.

There's a good diary on the recommended list today about this (and other) Kerry smears:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/12/31/144530/05?detail=f

Hey, did anyone ever get Trudeau's reward of ten grand offered to anyone who served with GWB in the Alamaba ANG?
No?

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