Not only is she "not a lawyer", she is "not credible".

Code word "door".

As in "Show Dick the door".

Interesting how the current administration can make up the rules as they go. If we do not IMPEACH all if these idiots we are screwed!!!! !

What role *does* a Sith Lord have in US government?

"... remembering that the executive order is enforced solely by the President of the Untied States. I think this is a little bit of a non-issue..."
----

I'm guessing Cheney told Bush to go fuck himself.

If the OVP is outside of the "executive branch" does this mean that the OVP cannot claim "executive priviledge" regarding their visitors records (and assorted other documents and deliberations)?

Posted by: newbie
Date: June 22, 2007 2:41 PM

Silly, silly. You're trying to apply logic to the argument. That only works for us reality-based community types.

"...remembering that the executive order is enforced solely by the President of the Untied States. I think this is a little bit of a non-issue..."
----

So, basically anyone can do anything they want as long as Bush says it's okay? Is that what I'm to understand? I wish Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi would hand Bush a copy of the Constitution the next time they're in front of the cameras and suggest that he put it on his reading list, before he reads the new Harry Potter.

"So what. Cheney knows he can do anything he wants, and can ignore congress and any laws he wants. While laughing, he knows the democrats in congress are spineless wimps, and will make all these gentle threats, but not do anything with legal force. Our country is in real trouble.

What would congress do if Bush and Cheney refused to let elections take place, and declared a terrorist emergency, and stayed on as Kings. Congress still would whine and complain but do nothing.
Posted by: poggy
Date: June 22, 2007 2:47 PM"

I'm ready for that actually. I hope cheney's hole is deep. I'll find him. I imagine that there'll be millions of others along with me for the ride too.

Perino's argument that Waxman is trying to enforce an executive order, which is only enforceable by the president, sounds alright from a legalistic perspective until you think for about 10 seconds about what Waxman actually did. He's not "enforcing" anything. As the head of the oversight committee, he sent Cheney a letter asking him to explain his position on the executive order a little more clearly -- you know, a little better than "I'm not an entity of any of the branches of government." The Archives may have arguably tried to enforce the EO -- they asked him to come up off some of his information, and when he didn't they complained about it -- but the Archives is part of the executive branch, yes? Waxman is just doing his job, *oversight*. Perino's argument is disingenuous. And stupid.

security code: "small"

This is my attempt at The Onion article-to-be about this whole issue (and hey any Onion editors out there, please, who wouldn't want to write for the most prescient publication in the country? pick me! pick me!):

VICE PRESIDENT DECLARES VICE PRESIDENT’S OFFICE SOVEREIGN NATION
New nation to be referred to as Veepotuswana

In a move that stunned the Washington establishment, Vice President Dick Cheney today declared the office of the Vice President a new country that he referred to as Veepotuswana.

His Chief of Staff and former legal counsel David Addington released a statement in which he explained that the Office of the Vice President had decided, “after a close and thorough reading of the U. S. Constitution”, to “finally fulfill the true intent of the Founding Fathers” by declaring themselves an independent country.

During a press conference after the release of the statement, Addington acknowledged that while the move was bound to be controversial, those who opposed it were clearly, “Democrats with no respect for the U.S. Constitution or concern about national security playing yet another round of Washington political theater.” When asked by NBC’s David Gregory if this move meant that the Vice President would still maintain executive authority within the United States of America, Addington responded that yes, of course, the constitution had established for this as well, and furthermore, “Hey David, hello? Duh.”

Cheney’s staff is reportedly at work setting up a U. S. Embassy in the Vice President’s office, as well as one of the largest U.S. military bases outside of the U.S. Halliburton was also reportedly being given a multi-billion dollar contract for what Addington referred to as “reconstruction” within the Office of the Vice President, or as it is now known, Veepotuswana . Reports that the CIA was setting up secret prisons, known as “black sites”, in the Vice President’s offices, went unconfirmed. When pressed by Helen Thomas about the rumors of the secret CIA torture prisons, Addington responded, “Helen, let me introduce you to the new national motto of Veepotuswana: “Go f*ck yourself.”

According to Addington, details of the new nation’s constitution were still being hammered out, but he did confirm that it would not provide for either a judicial or legislative branch. “We’ve seen what the liberal media can do with such tools available to them. Do we really want to repeat such a failed experiment?”

Buzz in conservative outposts was overwhelmingly favorable concerning the new move. John Podhoretz, in National Review’s blog The Corner declared, “It’s about damn time.” Conservative columnist, radio personality, and self-acclaimed constitutional expert Hugh Hewitt applauded the Vice President’s office on the move, claiming, in a prolix, incomprehensible, grindingly tedious and largely self-congratulatory essay, to have come to the same conclusion regarding the constitution years earlier.

All joking aside, SmirkCo knows their argument is Constitutionally ridiculous. But if it serves to delay accountability for another couple of months while the courts fight it out, it's done its job. And their lawyers will have another equally specious argument ready to follow. As far as this crowd is concerned, Nixon's only mistake was not burning the tapes when presented with a subpoena.

SmirkCo has made clear that they consider impeachment the only constitutional limit to their power. That's why they deride any suggestion of impeachment as wacko fringe lunacy.

I think Dick has given us an example of what misdemeanor meant when the framers of the constitution wrote:
"high crimes and misdemeanors"

IMPEACH NOW

Dana and her smug smile once again. Whattya bet she gets a gig at Fox News when the nightmare is over in 2009
Interesting. Bush likes to use that word too, usually to describe something he doesn't like.
As the Chinese curse goes- "may you live in interesting times"
We are cursed with these thieves in power.

The four branches of government:

Executive

Legislative

Judicial

Criminal

"If the Vice-President's office is NOT a part of the Executive Branch, then it isn't covered by executive priviledge is it?"

It's the Gestalt branch!
Not only is the OVP not subject to either the Legislative or Executive branches (since its conjoined with both), but by virtue of membership in each is superior to both. See?

I really want to see what would happen if Congress voted to impeach Cheney. Would he ignore it?

And if he did, then what?? (Hint: Bush commands the military.)

Given that Cheney is President of the Senate, what authority does he have over Senators? Does Bush have any authority over Cheney??

It's not an interesting question, it's a stupid assertion, which is why no previous VP in two centuries has made it.

Pretending that there are questions where, in fact, there are none, is a familiar strategem used by these thugs to do what they want while pretending it isn't wrong, by tying their opponents up in false controversy and court challenges.

It's just as reasonable to interpret the dual roles of the VP as making him subject to both branches, so he needs to report both to the National Archives AND the Senate's Security officers. Try that one on, DICK.

The point of all this is... Whaddya gonna do about it? Gitmo, torture, Jeff Gukert,domestic survellience, the Iraq War, Katrina, Harriet Miers, "Scooter-gate"...What are you, the progressive, intelligent people who care about our form of government going to do about the trashing of the American Constitution?

Dick & Bush know you're not going to do anything. We haven't touched them or altered their policies one bit. What are we gonna do?

If this behaviour by Chaney is accepeted by Republicans then they have to rewrite their charter. This is such a poke in the eye of the constitution - who can defend it?

"If the Vice-President's office is NOT a part of the Executive Branch, then it isn't covered by executive priviledge is it?"

The OVP is a meta-branch of US govt. After all, the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches need to be ruled by someone.

Given that the OVP is a member of both the Executive & Legislative branches, it obviously can't be subject to both; therefore, logic dictates it is subject to neither. And what's the point of ignoring 2 branches and leaving the 3rd all alone?

I'm really interested to see what would happen if Congress voted to impeach Cheney. Would he ignore it?

If he did, then what? Would the military be called on to remove Cheney?? (Bush commands the military.)

And exactly what authority does Cheney have as Senate President? Can he command Senators??

codeword: fear
(suggesting you jokers at TPMMuckraker really need to dial it down)

Ms. Perino, you may not be "a lawyer", but did you graduate from high school, or for that matter 6th grade? You don't need to be "a lawyer" to know that there are only 3 branches of government. One of them is not called "Dick Cheney".

apologies, thought my earlier post didn't go through

Anon 3:59 PM--given the reputations of those who throw out the "criminalizing politics" charge, I think we should continue to point out the missing prefix before "criminalizing". I believe guys like Rep. Cannon are really saying: "How dare you decriminalize politics? We've been living of the fat of the land, and now you PEOPLE want to enforce the LAWS?"

reminds me of the Seinfeld...where the Postmaster General told Kramer he's the Postmaster but he's also a General. And Generals can damn well get things done.
The GOP in Congress would never allow a Democrat to get away with this...need I say more?>

dkm @June 22, 2007 3:57 PM

"2. If he is also part of the legislature as president of the Senate, then he is also subject to the rules of the Senate."

Don't the rules for the removal of a member of the Senat simply require the concurrence of two-thirds of the senators? Reid only needs to hold this vote when only a few Republicans are out of town to send Mr. Undead back to the ranch.

"Too much cappucino" Perino must not have passed her 5th grade constitution test-my 5th grade son knew this one. That said he if wants to see himself outside the Executive branch then okay...

Here's a link to Cheney as President of the Senate from CREW:

CREW ASKS “IS THE VICE PRESIDENT CREATING A FOURTH BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT?”
Contact:
Naomi Seligman Steiner

22 Jun 2007 // Washington, DC – In light of new revelations that Vice President Cheney is claiming that his office is not subject to an executive order governing the handling of classified information because as president of the Senate he has both legislative and executive duties, CREW asks if Vice President Cheney is attempting to create a fourth branch of the government?

Under his argument, if Mr. Cheney is not subject to executive branch security requirements, surely he must be subject to Senate rules.

To safeguard sensitive information, in 1987 the Senate created the Office of Senate Security, which is part of the Secretary of the Senate. The Security Office’s standards, procedures and requirements are set out in the Senate Security Manual, which is binding on all employees of the Senate.

So, if Mr. Cheney is a member of the Senate, he must adhere to the following:

•a requirement that any of his staff needing access to classified information undergo a security clearance and complete written non-disclosure agreements;

•physical security requirements, that the Security Office is empowered to implement, including any necessary inspections;

•investigations of suspected security violations by employees, such as the security violation committed by Scooter Libby when he unlawfully disclosed the identity of Valerie Plame Wilson, then a covert CIA operative.

In addition, Mr. Cheney and his staff would be subject to investigation by the Senate Ethics Committee, which has the responsibility to investigate allegations of improper conduct which may reflect upon the Senate, including violations of law and the rules and regulations of the Senate.

more at:

http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/29166

"Perino is a lying scum who doesn't even break a smile in the midst of her big lies."

Yeah, but she's hot.

I remember suddenly waking up (1996? 97?) to the odd fact that many news anchors began resembling Swedish airline attendants.

Either you get silverhaired distinguished guy or you get twentysomething ex prom queen.

It will only get worse (or better, depending).

We should start referring to the president, the administration etc as The Black House. No information ever comes out of this place....

It is tragic and a real shame.

My personal thought is that Cheney is seriously delusional, if not downright psychotic! This is insane. I am sure Ms. Perino is just trying to do her job, but that sure is a stretch of the imagination to follow her logic.

So does this mean that Cheney can't claim executive privilege?

"he is not only the Vice President of the United States but in that role he is also the President of the Senate."

No, Peroxide: he performs two jobs. They are separate roles. Job One is to Stay Breathing.

And if he really wants to assert his god-king fourth branch status, then it's time for the Senate to demand he sits as president every moment it's in session. That won't be good for his circulation.

Come Come, the Rule of Law is such a non-issue for this crowd.

I start from the premise that the authority of any United States governmental office (let's avoid the term "entity" here), including the OVP, is necessarily only that which is granted by the Constitution.

I can conceive of a theory or theories which might grant authority on some sort of natural law or "exigencies of wartime" argument. I may not accept it, and in fact would find a natural law argument for extra-constitutional powers of the *Office of the Vice-President,* which seems clearly intended as a mechanism to allow for orderly Presidential succession in case of emergency, very strange; but I can accept that such an argument is possible. If so, however, it would be more than novel, and should be made explicitly and in sufficient depth so it can be addressed meaningfully, not just asserted or implied.

Otherwise, my review of the Constitution does not indicate that any power *is* vested in the OVP, aside from casting tiebreaker votes in the Senate. This is provision relevant to executive power:

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.

I don't see how this can be interpreted to vest any executive authority in the OVP.

On the other hand, I think that clearly the President has the power to delegate Executive authority to the OVP for at least some functions (leaving aside whether there are any limitations on that) - just as he could to anyone else. But if this is the source of OVP authority, I don't see why the exercise of such delegated Executive authority would not be subject to Executive governance and oversight, and the rules which otherwise apply to the Executive.

So as far as I can see the OVP can only exercise governmental authority (1) as delegated by and subject to the regulation of the Executive i.e., the President; (2) by virtue of an unidentified (by me, at least) extra-constitutional source for the OVP's governmental authority, in which case it seems to me we better get very clear about what that is and why; or (3) without a valid legal basis.

Schlock.

Aaaah, here it is -- we can all just go debate about what these actors do. That's where we're consigned. We're not part of the process. We're just left to debate what these actors are doing. And while we're debating what they did yesterday or today, they're already acting again. We can all just debate that too.

Having fun in the reality-based community yet?

Here is Title 3--Executive Order 13292 of March 25, 2003:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/eo13292inout.html

Sec. 5.3 5.2. Information Security Oversight Office.

(a) There is established within the National Archives and Records Administration an Information Security Oversight Office. The Archivist of the United States shall appoint the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office, subject to the approval of the President.

(b) Under the direction of the Archivist of the United States, acting in consultation with the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office shall:

(1) develop directives for the implementation of this order;

(2) oversee agency actions to ensure compliance with this order and its implementing directives;

(3) review and approve agency implementing regulations and agency guides for systematic declassification review prior to their issuance by the agency;

(4) have the authority to conduct on-site reviews of each agency’s program established under this order, and to require of each agency those reports, information, and other cooperation that may be necessary to fulfill its responsibilities. If granting access to specific categories of classified information would pose an exceptional national security risk, the affected agency head or the senior agency official shall submit a written justification recommending the denial of access to the President through the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs within 60 days of the request for access. Access shall be denied pending the response;

(5) review requests for original classification authority from agencies or officials not granted original classification authority and, if deemed appropriate, recommend Presidential approval through the Director of the Office of Management and Budget Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs;

(6) consider and take action on complaints and suggestions from persons within or outside the Government with respect to the administration of the program established under this order;

(7) have the authority to prescribe, after consultation with affected agencies, standardization of forms or procedures that will promote the implementation of the program established under this order;

(8) report at least annually to the President on the implementation of this order; and

(9) convene and chair interagency meetings to discuss matters pertaining to the program established by this order.

(b) ‘‘Agency’’ means any ‘‘Executive agency,’’ as defined in 5 U.S.C. 105

I read it. Perino is lying. She says that the President always intended for the VP to be treated the same as himself, however BushCo took effort to add "the Vice President in the performance of executive duties" nine times to Executive Order 13292. Zero times does this phrase occur in Section 5.2. - Information Security Oversight Office. If Bush's handlers (i.e. Cheney) had fore-saw to exclude Cheney, then it would be in black and white in Section 5.2.

remember this when you vote, remind others. it wil be a nuclear winter for the republicans until they will have the trust of voters again

For those of you who are not in the loop of why G W Bush does here is a quick rundown.

In Bush's mind, he is in the Legislative branch of government. That is team Bush writes law. No. I am not talking about executive orders. I am talking about signing statements where Bush alone determines how it applies to him or anyone else he wants to apply it to.

In Bush's mind he controls the Judicial branch of government. Again I am not talking about his recess or judicial appointments. I am refering to something that Bush has said numerous times yet no one in the press has ever challanged it. Bush has said it is the duty of his office "to interpet law" as it applies to them. Don't forget Bush is the self professed "decider."

Of course we all know Bush is in the executive branch of government, or at least this is where we thought that we elected both him and Cheney. But today we learned from Perino that is new. That is only Bush can enforce executive orders. Move over Clint Eastwood. We have a new "Enforcer."

So there you have it. Bush controls all sections of goverment just like a dictator should.

And where does Cheney fit into this fold you ask? He is, with his special constitutional duties, the leader of the 4th branch of goverment called Halliburton. Given his name and newly evoked title he should be refered to as Bush's Dick Head.

interesting constitutional question that legal scholars can debate

"Gumming it to death 2.0"

PEOPLE "CAN DEBATE" A LOT OF THINGS...

LET'S DEBATE WHETHER OR NOT DICK CHENEY IS THE ANTICHRIST. OR WHETHER THE V.P. IS EVEN A "HUMAN BEING" [REMEMBER HE RUNS ON LITHIUM BATTERIES] TO WHICH THE LAWS-OF-MEN CAN BE APPLIED.

Actually Congress could resolve this matter in pretty short order. At some point they have to do the Bill for funding the WH after October 1 this year, and through that spending bill they could establish rules that would eliminate a separate staff for the OVP. They could further require Bush to report to Congress on individual grants of responsibility or authority to the OVP. Of course Bush would veto such an appropriations bill with such restrictions, but if the WH wanted to operate after October 1, Bush would have to negotiate a solution in short order.

I think it would be good to advocate this -- afterall October is only nearly 3 months away, and it would be a lot quicker than the courts.

No Appropriations Bill -- no money to buy the fuel for Air Force One. No brush cutting vacations. (The Air Force owns the plane, but the Executive Office pays for the gas.) Congress could just take the position in writing the appropriations bill that this mythical 4th branch of government doesn't exist, and therefore zeroing out the funding is entirely legitimate.

Ol Dicky is only doing his thing & acting out as normal, but maybe in this & other recent examples isn't getting away with hiding it as usual since at the moment we have more than one party in DC. Yes he & the "party" are making up rules as they go - heil! As well as being the total hypocrites they are, and still unfortuntaly mostly getting away with it. It seems congress cant have enough hearings on this "admin." But remember if it looks like a fascist, & sounds like a fascist, and acts like a fascist, guess what?! It will probably continue to do so - until impeached & imprisoned.

Message to the Office of the Vice President and Office of the President:

"Secrecy - the first refuge of incompetents - must be at bare minimum in a democratic society, for a fully informed public is the basis of self-government. Those elected or appointed to positions of executive authority must recognize that government, in a democracy, cannot be wiser than the people."*

* Commission on Government Security, the Committee on Government Operations of the House of Representatives, 1960 Report
Reference: House Committee on Government Operations, Availability of Information From Federal Departments and Agencies, 86th Cong., 2d sess., 1960, House Rept. 86-2084, 36.
from Appendix A - "SECRECY - A Brief Account of the American Experience", Section 8. A Culture of Secrecy, in the 1997 Report of the Commission on Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy, which is US Senate Document # 105-2 of the 103rd Congress

I'm a lawyer outside the beltway and I've got one thing to say: she's creepy.

Cheney must be the most corrupt, sleazy, and greedy American politician ever. He has practically single-handedly masterminded the destruction of values in the constitution. People are right to be alarmed. How dare he take so many laws, liberties, freedoms, and trample on them, as though no one matters but him & the White House.

ha, cheney is sure making a crazy inane argument. but i can't help but think that what's even more evil is the perrinos and the snows who stand up and lie about the argument to the public. cheney or snow: who is more evil? the acts themselves, or the person who tries to spin the acts so they don't seem evil? *sigh*

Hit the link. Cheney's got a very big legal problem: By refusing to agree that his OVP is in the Executive Branch, he has no legal basis to invoke "Executive" privilege: All precedents apply only to Exeuctive Branch agencies.

What's Addington's plan, Karl? Check maintenance.