This FISA debacle gets more interesting by the second (literally). TPM: Way to go posting breaking news storys so quickly! Thanks!

he does not want a bill- he wants an issue.

something to wank about while the demsareatsummerrecess - idiots -so he can slip in a recess appointment and say see here dems bad me good.

fu preznit

any democrat who votes for this bill needs to be cast out of the party

and that's all there is to say

Anyone who watched the hissies the gopers threw last night and this mornng (David Drier and Tex Sessions were absolutely incoherent) knows that there's some shenanigans going on. Why did Drier make such an ass of himself, rambling inanely until Boehner came on the floor simply to agree with Hoyer?

I can't imagine the very glamorous and fabulous Dapper D taking a bullet for anyone else's benefit.

"A bill that House Democrats put forward today does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate."

WTF???

No Warrants? Period?

Guidlines from the A.G.?

What kind of compromise is that? Does FISA ever get involved at all?

doesn't the oath of office require that the first question be: "Is this bill constitutional?"

just sayin'...

Setting aside the contents of the deal that was made and reneged upon for a moment--when McConnell comes back to negotiate again, don't you just send him back and ask them to send somebody that actually has authority to make a deal?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

-Case closed.-

BP

If Bush is involved, then he has done something illegal. The man does not "work" at anything other than making money for his cronies and covering his and his cronies' asses.

If Bush is involved then whatever the problem is - caving is NOT the best interest of the citizenry.

When w refuses to leave office in 2008 I will do my duty as American citizen.

This would really backfire on Bush if the Democrats spent all weekend going on t.v. telling their side of the story. Unfortunately, they're way too stupid/lazy to do that.

Could Bush be using some kind of a specific terrorist threat for Aug-Sept as the excuse to force-feed this bill down the Dems' throats?

There's no threat to delay this, other than from Sanders and Feingold; I wonder if this is just fear-mongering again?

Incidentally, when I said " ITMFA ", the ' F ' should be taken as a *plural*.

These 'people' are interchangable. They all need to go -- to jail.

.

This is getting ridiculous, how many times will the Dems give into to these guys?

We've got a Federal Judge saying that the wiretap program is illegal and we're going to make it legal?

Man I must be running in the wrong crowd, oh pardon me.

We've got a Federal Judge saying that the wiretap program is illegal and we're going to make it legal?

---------------

That's what is mindnumbing about this.

The ruling was months again. The Admin buries it, and no doubt keep on doing what it illegal. Then they beg Congress to make it legal. And Congress decides to play ball.

John

In a sane world--Hoyer: "We have, in this WhiteHouse a stubborn, obstinate, and nearly incoherent approach to the FISA law, they do not have the security of the United States as there #1 prority, only the accumulation of power in the executive branch.

Being the representatives of the people we will not allow this charade to compromise our nation's security or the fundamental, inalienable right of all Americans."

moondancer@5:21

I dont know who or how but that was not my posting. I wasnt even online til well after 600PM EST.

My question is "Why"? Why is the President so intent on getting his way on this bill - even to the point of over-riding his DNI?? Why would he want to put Alberto Gonzales in charge?

It seems that the Congress has given away too much already? In their rush to get to their vacations, their European trips in place, are they rushing to get out of town?

Mr Bush will most likely veto this deal that the Democrats passed today. He will threaten to keep them here for the August recess, if necessary, until he gets what he wants.

He has waited since January for just the right moment to pull this political ploy. He knows how much the Congressmen covet their vacations. He believes they will fold in order to get out of town. I should hope the Democrats would call his bluff.

I want to hear one Democratic leader stand up this bully. OK, Mr President, we have given you just what the DNI told us you needed. If we are attacked because of these political games, you will have no one to blame but yourself. The American people are watching closely.

This program is just a CYA for what they have already been doing using Echelon, etc, by hiding NSC operations under the NSA umbrella. The fact that the Democrats signed off on warrantless surviellance in the US ought to be ringing bells in sentient beings heads.

The problem with the three letter boys and the pResident is in trying to prevent operations that have already occurred, from occurring again as they did previously. In short they are still fighting the last war, like Petraeus is in his. Scotland was a feint.

When all of this fails and AQ clobbers the "Homeland" yet again, then some of us will still be out here with under educated asses and observations saying I told you so, while the overclass and college boys figure out what went wrong with all of this crap under discussion here, mostly that those who rely on on electonic communications assume that other do as well. Sorry kids, AQ is the most unAmerican of people, slightly above and to the right of the current US government, which is the most unAmerican of governments, as per the legislation.

Well, the dems sent our troops off to die for nothing with the iraq authorization resolution, and they did so because they were afraid that it might hurt their chances as candidates if they stood up to bush and called him on his BS (with the notable exception of Nancy Pelosi, who led a majority in the house to vote against it and abandon Gephart).

So it should not be surprising that they would flush the constitution and much else down the toilet over this fight.

And you know the bill will have a clause that gives the admin immunity for all of their past illegal spying on top of giving all authority to that perjurer and criminal the Attorney General of the United States.

There's only one problem with Bush's statement: it isn't true.

WHAT?? The chimp lied about something? Say its not so!! Afterall he's a "christian" and a compassionate conservative who wants to "fight em over there so we don't have to fight em here" while he "smokes em out and gits em."

I cant believe Chimpy lied.

There's only one problem with Bush's statement: it isn't true.

WHAT?? The chimp lied about something? Say its not so!! Afterall he's a "christian" and a compassionate conservative who wants to "fight em over there so we don't have to fight em here" while he "smokes em out and gits em."

I cant believe Chimpy lied.

I hope everyone is calling/emailing their Congressman and Nancy Pelosi urging them to not agree to an enhanced FISA law.

I think the key thing is this: the fix is in. We can only forever guess; we never, ever know anything for sure; but at a certain level - specifically, at a certain height - Dems and Cons and Bushies commingle indistinguishably, they work to advance mysterious agendas that operate on the same core principle as the realm of death - or, no emanation of information, period. Just guesses upon guesses, forever and ever...

This is how conspiracies are hatched, cared for and fed. This is why people start thinking crazy thoughts - and start thinking those crazy thoughts aren't so crazy. Are there open WH threats going on, against Cons and Dems? Do certain people know certain things that are so bone-chilling and ugly that ambling ashen-faced through Congress' halls is the sum total of what they're capable of? Does "We, the People" sputter off into inoperability once you become a senator or congressperson? Is there, in a nutshell, no liberty or freedom in America beyond farcical facades and dreams and ideals? Did Bush start this, or is he merely the latest (and most virulent) version?

I ask these questions because I've never seen anything like the Bushies, and I've often thought that Congress, having also never seen anything like the Bushies (read: a cult of personality from hell), can't help but be ripe-ass rubes open to endless neoconnish sucker punches. Or: if an open tyranny has engines that run exclusively on law-flouting jet fuel, could they succeed because nobody saw it coming? Could they succeed because they have zero scruples, pick their teeth with decorum's bones and spit fire into judicious eyes?

I think I've finally lost my mind because of these bastards. Because, by fuck, they are bastards.

This is pathetic. I despise Bush.
He's just a man who wants everything his way or no way.
I'd encourage the Democrats to give Bush a collective finger. If the DNI was satisfied, then what the hell is Bush up to?
Will anyone else get this story? Will it show up on the evening news?
Brother. I'm so sick of this kind of savage partisanship. And phoniness.

Does anyone know if this means the program is stopped, in light of the recent secret court ruling?

If so, now is Bush's chance to blame the dems should something big happen, say over the summer recess.

The only way for Democrats to survive the foolishness forced on them by the Republicans is to involve 'we, the people' by defunding everything and shutting down whatever they can. We, the people need to wake up, figure out that our country and our future are being hijacked by that corrupt crowd around Bush, turn off the TV and hit the street. Our money is paying for this nonsense, we and our elected representatives need to learn to say NO. We can stonewall, be forgetful and wear a shit-eating grin while lying as well as they can.

Spencer you did it again. The statement of the President IS true. It hasn't happened yet. You are mixing two topics in one attack. You have to stop that. It is what a 2 year old would do without considering context. Your argument did well without that.

A word of caution to Congress:

Do not approve expansion of FISA legislation.

Nothing this admisistration or Juctice Department has done should instill any confidence.

Overreaching,polarization and politicization have been the names of the game. This is not a joke. It is not a political game.

To date, we have not seen an instance in which we afforded this administration the benefit of the doubt in which this administration did not use that benefit as an opportunity to expand and abuse its power. STOP.

Neither Bush, Gonzalez nor Cheney can be trusted with the fragile, yet provacitive power of the people of the United States. . . a democracy . . . a proud democracy, not the dynastic, totalitarian regime that we are destined to become if our leaders don't show, not a little, but a huge amount of backbone. Where are our democratic (not in the sense of a party, but in a sense of democracy)?

People are suffering on the Gulf Coast, in Iraq and here in America.

If I read it right, with this bill FISA is gone and Gonzo will run the show?

"A bill that House Democrats put forward today does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate."

This is unfortunately phrased--it makes it sound like the government can start eavesdropping on people in the US without ever obtaining a warrant. If I understand what is said after following the link, it says that if a FISA-warranted wiretap ends up snaring someone in the US, no additional warrant needs to be obtained. One can argue about whether this is okay, but is at least not as egregiously unconscionable as is apparently stated.

This bs is typical of the chimp. Scare tactics and a manufactured "crisis". See another pattern? "I listen to the [agency heads] on the ground." In reality, when he doesn't hear the answer he expects, then he overrules and replaces them.

If it were me, I'd publically hold firm on the Gonzo issue. The disagreement over trusting Gonzo with any meaninful oversight of something otherwise secret is precisely why he needs to be fired/resign/impeached. Stated differently using their talking point, Gonzo is a threat to our Nation's vital security!

Maybe there's another one of those "Bin Laden Determined To Fuck You Up" memos out there and Cheney is gaming this to set the Democrats up for blame once it happens.

Really, this is where you get with this shit. You get into real strange territory of thinking.

There's lots of talk about Bushco's ability to prevent another 9/11 sort of incident. There's not enough talk -- now that THEY ARE NEARING THE END OF THEIR LEGAL RUN IN OFFICE -- about their willingness to prevent an attack.

Fuck satisfying the military as it relates to domestic surveillance (even if one party is out of the country) and whether such surveillance meets Constitutional muster. Congress does not answer to unelected nimrods like McConnell, Congress, limited by the text of the Constitution, answers to the people. Minions like McConnell await Congress' laws.

Re: "If so, now is Bush's chance to blame the dems should something big happen, say over the summer recess"

Bush can blame the Dems if and when ANY attack is deemed probable or in fact occurs.

"Folks, this travesty occurred because the Democrats have consistently fought this administration everytime we attempted to secure this nation. See, these are the results. We cannot allow this to happen again! Congress needs to okay ALL the protective measures I have been attemping to get passed immediately so this does not occur again!"

Of course, everything he blames the Democrats for will be top secret national security documents. It'll probably work, too...

Don't forget sHrIMpSELF's little executive order of a couple of months past, the one in which he gets to proclaim himself Grand Imperial Poobah in the case of a sentinal event (shit, the order doesn't even specify what kind of event it has to be - just a 'threat' as defined by Chimpy - or, actually, Darth Cheney).

Hell, a big sell off on Wall Street could allow this whoreson to declare himself president for life; these people have put the machinations in place for their coup.

Impeach them now, while we still have a chance.

Impeach early, and impeach often.

Don't forget sHrIMpSELF's little executive order of a couple of months past, the one in which he gets to proclaim himself Grand Imperial Poobah in the case of a sentinal event (shit, the order doesn't even specify what kind of event it has to be - just a 'threat' as defined by Chimpy - or, actually, Darth Cheney).

Hell, a big sell off on Wall Street could allow this whoreson to declare himself president for life; these people have put the machinations in place for their coup.

Impeach them now, while we still have a chance.

Impeach early, and impeach often.

Better yet....Let the two parties fight it out and let's get a third party in this country going giving people a real choice for a change. How about Mr. Gore? Just tag Obama as your running mate an that's a slam dunk!

OK, just where in the Constitution does it allow Commander Codpiece, his SuperSpook, and Congress to negotiate just which 4th amendment guarantees will and will not be observed?

sorry about the multiples, my internet sucks

White House says it's not true

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/08/20070803-19.html

Statement by Deputy Press Secretary Tony Fratto

RSS Feed White House News

"This afternoon on the House floor, Rep. Alcee Hastings asserted that last night the Director of National Intelligence had accepted a House Democratic proposal on FISA modernization but the White House made him turn it down. That is flatly untrue. The DNI reviewed the legislation himself and determined that it would not provide the tools he needs to protect the country, and therefore he would not be able to look the President in the eye and say that the legislation should be signed. The Administration is working in good faith with the Congress to get this critical national security legislation passed before they depart for the rest of August."

# # #

Cheney wants the FISA bill to be retroactive, so he and the Pres won't go to jail for breaking the Law.

Cokehead said "Mr. DNI?" What is he, f-cking five years old?

This might be the only thing I respect Bush for. Any agreement that bypasses a warrant is poisonous. He blocked another Democratic cave in.

Here's how to tell Bush is lying: His lips are moving.

The name of the bill should be called:

The Hillary/Obama/Edwards/Richardson Surveillance Act of 2007.

With that much unchecked power to spy, how much you want to bet they'd use the power to spy on political opponents?

Of course the FISA is suddenly an issue because GWB just found out (Via judicial ruling) that what he and Cheney have been doing is illegal. Maybe they're a little worried. Personally, I think the way FISA worked under Clinton (and they've extended the time to get a warrant from 48 to 72 hours I think) is just adequate. I say, give him the bill and plan to hang out in DC during August. Might be good to stand your ground. Realize that it will also force the 'other side of the isle' to stay in Washington...could be a bonding experience. Don't give Bush one more thing!

Where is Mr. Blank these days? The Democratic congress is about to legalize warrantless intrusions and do it RETROACTIVELY. If Mr. Blank has anything else to say, he'd better say it now because time's almost up.

Prediction: Mr. Blank's got nothing of substance and now we're all f*cked because the Democrats are selling us down the river.

Fine, tell Gonzo to turn in his resignation, find an AG that is acceptable, and maybe we can make a deal.

F*UCK BUSH !!! And ANY Demos who crater to his sad, silly "demands".

Disclaimer: I am not a psychologist.

However, I think this whole sceme is part and parcel of the make-up of George W Bush. To this day, he cannot admit he made a mistake with anything he has ever done. That is why he is clinging to some sort of "victory" in Iraq, after his disastrous invasion.

He thinks in a similar way about the FISA laws. He knows what he did was illegal but he believes that, in time, history will show that what he did illegally will prove to have protected America from the terrorists and he will be forgiven for breaking the FISA laws.

Bottom line: The President is in deep denial. He is in denial about the mess he has created in Iraq. And he is in denial about the laws that he broke, in his search for the terrorists. He is a mentally disturbed person.

I think what Anon/Deepmodem is saying can be summarized like this:

The DOJ, WH, OVP, Legal Counsel, and/through RNC have been using the TSP as a heads-up on investigations regarding attorney firings, Libby, torture, renditions etc and for political purposes. The link to the state AG case involving verizon and the DOJ is an example of the “third-party” IP data capture and how this method could be used over and over again to compile evidence.

The references to war crimes is the motive. The third-party data capture doesn’t hold evidence of war crimes. The evidence of war crimes is all out in the open, torture, rendition, black sites etc. The fear of war crimes charges are just the motive to conceal the use of TSA, skirting FISA, for political purposes and to block investigations into war crimes.

Cheney refusing to comply with the Executive Order regarding oversight of classified material handling seems separate. But the reason Cheney refused to comply was because, according to Anon, it is illegal to classify material to cover up illegal activities. By the way, did this get dropped? Any work being done legally to force Cheney to comply with the classified material EO?

This is simply unacceptable that this Democratic controlled Congress and Senate are willing to relinquish all civil rights for all Americans based on FEAR. The elected officials, many whom I voted for, are seemingly Cowards. The Democrats should realize that the American people elected them to think independently and not to RUBBER stamp every SECURTY-related FEAR request of the Bush administration. The irreversible damage to our civil liberties is being committed by the Democrats and Republicans during their 72 hour scrimmage to ensure that their vacation is not interrupted. I am particularly disgusted at the Democrats bill, which “does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate.” A major decision such as this should be thoroughly debated during weeks of deliberation between the parties, with the priority to protect the Constitutional liberties of all Americans.

What FISA provided was a paper trail. You know for posterity. In case of wrong doings(accountability). By our Governmant, not just the neo con ran Government.

We know they spied on quakers, war protesters, and suspected anti war/anti Bush activists.

They are profiling us like J Edger Hoover did.
there are reports of people going on vacation to Canada, are being rejected their entrance into the country because they were busted with pot 35 years ago, or arrested for being in a protest during Vietnam years.
How can this be? Because part of our terrorist defense is sharing info with other countries. And that info is that of Americas's own citizens. The profiles on us are being given to other countries.
These other countries have laws that look at you differently than our laws.

Would it be that the Dems are being reassured that no political eaves dropping on political adversaries will occur. Therefore it is OK to spy and collect info on us to create profiles that can be used against you for anything and be given to other countries to be used against you. For something minute as a protest 35 yrs ago?

To all those who are calling for impeachment YOU CAN NOT IMPEACH A DICTATOR.
congress makes the bills that become law not the person sitting in the White House. congress has the power to reverse any thing that comes out of the White House. They are not going to do this . Perhaps we should remember what Franklin D. Roosevelt said in his 1946 State of the Union address: " Nothing in politics is accidental. Everything is well planned."These words came from the mouth of the only man ever to hold the White House for four terms. Fact finder. TRUTH LIVES

Okay, I'm disgusted with the Dems...everyone agree they are a bunch of useless clowns?

Why on Earth would they agree to allow this president, this administration, and this Attorney General to have even greater latitude in shredding our civil rights under the Constitution? What the hell is going on? Is this 2007 or the end of 2001 post 911? You'd think Bush was a wildly popular president and Dems weren't in controll of Congress with the way these chumps are rolling over for Bush...at virtually every front when it pertains to this war.

We need new Dem leadership sooner than later. These people are the biggest bunch of pussies in the world. As someone said the other day, we should all send them some ping pong balls, considering none of them actually have a set themselves.

Bush squashed the deal? Nope, that's the handiwork of Cheney....anyone up for bets on it?

I agree with those who recognize that the Veep is the guy in the other room making the decision. He probably never authorized Bush to give the NIA authority to commit the White House.

I suspect that Dick Cheney is holding out for blanket immunity from future prosecutions for past illegal activity. Bush doesn't have the foresight to recognize he has criminal exposure once out of office. Cheney does.

This wiretapping ability that congress intends to ram down our throats shows such contempt for the United States Constitution. It is a direct attack on the principles of a free spciety. It is the final straw breaking the back of American liberty. This is treason committed by those sworn by legal and binding oath to preserve and protect the same Constitution they are wiping their feet on. Whats next King George?

The bill passed in the Senate but it was Bond's bill. As far as I am concerned, they should have told the White House that they will take it up in the fall when they get back from recess. The White House had 7 months to get this through--this is a very complex bill with significant ramifications to all of us and you don't do a bill like this half-assed.

Our personal freedoms and liberties are more important and we the people deserve better from our legislators.

The thought of trusting anything to, or anybody in, this Justice Department is just absurd. The only thing that saves the Dems is that we all know the GOP members are dumber than they are. They showed us that again and again last night and again today. They seem to think that every little problem is solved by a non-debatable motion to adjourn. It only buys them a 15 minute roll call, but then they do it again. Dunces!

Friday - @6:48 and 8:54

Can you please be more specific?

I see your questions. I see your answers. And I sort of get a bit of the gist. But I'm not sure I really understand what you're trying to say.

Please, if you're still paying attention here on this thread, could you give me a bit more information?

A. I think you're suggesting (questioning?)that what's being captured is not specific conversations but bursts of activity, bursts of phone calls or emails - particularly at times when the administration is under fire. And that you can track how a conspiracy is occurring through those bursts and how they cluster in terms of who's in the loop?

B. Your summary about what Anon/Deepmodem is saying - that's where I'm confused. What is this TSP heads-up you're referring to? Can you give a specific crisis, as an example? And your reference to Verizon info? That's how it's captured? That's an example of the 3rd party data capture? And that's been referred to in Anon's posts - something recent, info in the public domain I seem to recall?

C. War crimes as the motive? Not sure what you mean by motive. You say "motive to conceal the use of TSA, skirting FISA and to block investigations into war crimes." Do you mean that, as you say, the evidence of war crimes is not in the data being captured (the bursts of activity, if I'm correct)? But that is already in the public domain - we know about it? And are you saying that the "excuse" of hiding the TSA program (with pretence of hiding war crimes) REALLY hides discovery of the conspiracy related to the bursts of activity (captured in places like Verizon)? If I'm correct, could you lay that out more logically, for a simple-minded person?

D. Cheney refusing to comply with oversight - only SEEMS like a separate issue? But what we should really get is that he's doing something illegal (or supervising it) - and the "classification" of illegal activity is against the law, right? And somehow, with all this other stuff going on, going after cheney has dropped off the radar?

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IN THOSE TWO POSTS? Try to explain to the degree you can. I think I've cracked the "password" for today. And please explain anything else.

Thanks (to the "tooth" fairy)

I thought the oath of office for all of the elected, appointed and military included the part about "protecting and defending" the constitution of the United States.

The intelligence prior to 9/11 gave substantial evidence of the intent of the attack, yet the administration ignored it.

Even if the evidence was in writing giving time, date and details, if it didn't support the administration desires it would be simple ignored.

Adm. McConnell is apparently falling on his sword and pretending that he did not renege on any deal he reached with the Democrats in Congress. He works for the man and is subject to the military chain of command, so he's gotta do what he's gotta do.

Alternatively, he could do what Colin Powell was never able to do, but probably wishes he had. Resign. Resign on a point of principal important to him, his government and his fellow countrymen. Resign on a point of honor. (A notion this administration finds laughable.) His president sent him out to do a job, he did it, and his president cut him off at the knees.

Adm. McConnell's resignation on those terms would have emotional resonance and a rational impact far beyond the FISA debate. He would be reminding all senior military and government officials that their oaths of office are to the Constitution, not to a man, not to an administration, and not to a political party.

Sorry folks, but the American people do not have a problem giving the President (even this incompetent and corrupt President) the right to spy on foreign phone conversations without a court order. He (and Karl Rove) know this and that is why they have chosen to fight on this issue. It is a guaranteed winner for them. Your doomsday arguments about civil liberties are way over the top. They are no more "reality-based" than the President's hopes for Iraq.

moondancer,
I'm the "culprit" using the name Moondancer. Since I'm new to the site I'm open to ideas on how to best distinguish my posts from yours.
Moondancer@5:21

The pusillanimous democrats have caved in again to Bush threats and have passed a bill that further weakens our civil liberties and violates the constitution. These people are so f'ing scared of republican issue ads on national security that they have simply left their balls on the senate floor for the republicans to walk over. They don't deserve to be in office.

With extensive outsourcing, traveling families, business trips, routine business, the number of Americans that would be caught up in any communication - phone, internet phone, web searches, e-mail - with a single international component would be astronomical. Some you'd never know about. Eight hundred and other numbers are, for example, routinely routed internationally to call centers.

But that's the point. Because the underlying technology captures entire data streams; it captures the river, not just the boats floating past. The effort is to make it legal for the govt to do that - with absolutely no restrictions on what it does with that information, including what private contractors it releases it to for "study" (and what they do with it), at any time.

Some things are simply unforgivable. Don't bother telling me all the good things you have done for me - after you stab my mother. The Democrats have no idea what they have lost with this vote. If they think the voters are a little angry and will be back in the fold in a couple of days, they are mistaken. They are at the same level of disgust as are the Republicans. I will not surrender my rights to George W Bush, the Republican Party, or the Democratic Party. Go screw yourselves!

data could be released - for "study" - like as if I applied to do "research" and got hold of that, but that somehow that could capture the "essence" of something, the flow, direction? like you could chart election type things?

I'm try to wrap my mind around this - I wonder if that's what they count on - that people would tune out - once it gets too complicated. "just take care of me, make me safe" - they'll say

I'm confused, so does this mean they caved and gave Gonzales more power in FISA decisions and took the judges out of the loop? Is that included? this seems unconstitutional to allow any AG this power, especially Gonzales!
Tell me this hasn't been done!

It's group therapy for grief and anger here tonight!

With a little paranoia thrown in for good measure.

Message to the Democrats:

And please stop calling up Alberto Gonzales to testify and stop badmouthing the illegal spying that he and Dubya have been indulging in illegally. You have no right to criticize any of them anymore. You have no right to tell us how incompetent or how untrustworthy the Attorney General happens to be. You are no better. So just STFU!

I could be wrong, Steve. Maybe it's not paranoia. Maybe it's despair.

I don't know if they caved or not - but it looks like Saturday they're set to do some kind of short-term give-away of civil liberties, before they do the long term give-away. Why we have to wait for the coup de grace, I have no idea!

Steve, I'm waiting and hoping that anon is doing a long post. I feel like I'm waiting for godot.

How bout you?

I apologize for my anger. But Bush has been waiting since January to spring this on the Democrats. He understands them. He knows they covet their time-off (August recess) moreso than they covet the Constitution or the lipservice they give to it. He timed it perfectly and they folded like a cheap accordion. They are a disgrace.

Now they can go and complete their reservations for that trip to Scotland or that little outing to the Vatican in Italy and not be concerned with little things like Constitutional rights or spying on American citizens. When they return, then they can start all over, telling us how bad Bush and Gonzales are and how they are breaking the laws. Good night all.

The codeword is "sleep".

Raise Hell !!

Josh, explain this mess. please.

DAMMIT; they blinked again!
Lets start a new party, the Progressive Democratic Revolution (PDR). Well, dang it all to hell. This is so frustrating.

My paranoia says that this fuss about accidental electronic eavesdropping on Americans is all a smokescreen. It certainly appeared suddenly, and the illegality looks non-explosive to me. It is what many non-lawyer, non-civil-libertarians would say is a borderline call rather than a real source of outrage that would produce political problems if known.

I say they have confessed to a trivial sin to divert attention from a huge one.

Just before the "leak" of supposedly classified info from Republican loyalist Boehner about what he said was the substance of the problem, rumors centered on data mining as the real illegality that they wanted to keep on doing.

My guess is that this data mining included Nixonian examination of the income, spending patterns and telephone/email networks of a long list of domestic enemies such as all Democratic officeholders, political activists and some other problem people like Chomsky.

Or am I misremembering this timeline and misjudging how disproportionate the political response has been, if the eavesdropping we've heard about is really the big issue?