If we really want any change in this country, we might as well give up on the dems. They have proven they have no intention on rolling back any of the abuses, or prosecuting any of the crimes of the Bush administration.

If you really want to make a difference, the next time you think you want to contribute to the democrats, send the money to ACLU. They are the only ones that have successfully curbed any of the Crime families activities.

Give them enough money to hire another 1000 attorneys who will fight these crimes in courts. Let the courts do what the Democratic Congress refuses to do!

uhh, maybe i'm just an idiot but if there's no draft bill what are they marking up by the 18th???

please (have them) clarify, seriously. it sounds like they're blowing smoke up someone's ass.

So. . . "rumors" of an attack on the Capitol Building scare legislators into approving the first bill this summer, and now the ACLU is using "rumors" to influence the updated bill in an opposite direction. . . ?

Give up on the Dems?

Who will dig our caves?

There's probably a bill. AT&T has to put the finishing touches on it.

"Short lead time" on PAA? No kidding. The bill was introduced on August 1 and President Bush signed it on August 5. We can't afford to blink or we'll miss it the next time they chip a piece off the Constitution.

And why, exactly, is telecom immunity "absolutely under discussion"?

Because of telco dollars for campaigns and telco lobbyists sitting down for chats with the key staff and Senators.

Meanwhile we're supposed to blanch at the terrible, rash behavior of the civil rights advocate passing on -- gasp -- a _rumor_ that telecom immunity is in the draft bill?

If the committee is going to pretend there's no bill, and acknowledge that immunity's 'absolutely under discussion', then that is the functional equivalent of a draft bill with immunity.

There's no ethical or etiquette breach here other than the ACLU advocate agreeing to be blindsided again.

Sins must be confessed in order to ask for forgiveness. Christianity 101.

So, the ACLU is outside the tent, pissing in? Good for them.

I like JW's "Katrina Moment" analogy. I think there's a lot of truth to it. After the capitulation on the Iraq supplemental, gutting FISA, at midnight, and then blowing town was really just too much.

There is a difference between the two parties, no question, but I'd like to see the distance greater, not less.

I have no doubt that there will be a deal in favor of the telecoms.If it is full immunity we`d better watch it.Net neutrality is down the road for them.
It is amazing that issues like this are even being considered.
Pre-emptive war,kaput;the Military Commissions Act non-kaput;Habeas Corpus,kaputsville;Torture/Gitmo,non-kaputsville;FISA,gonzo,4th Amendment,gonzo;truth,gonzo;honor,_____, fill in the blank.The above may not be a complete sentence,but I think my ideas have been communicated.
Where does fear and net neutrality fit?

The upside of telco immunity is Dems fishing for telco dollars that started with Clinton's 1996 telco legislation.

Given what's just come out today about Qwest's CEO over at Daily Kos, any immunity for the telecommunication companies is about to die with a stake through its heart. It's not looking good. I can't help but wonder how much of the spying involved trade secrets as well as spying for the purposes of insider trading.

Don't forget those put options just before 9-11. They take on a whole new meaning now.

In fact, the spying looks like it was targeting much much more than just a bunch of piddly boring peace activists...

Thank god for the ACLU. However, the really telling moment will come when those of us who take this seriously cancel our telecom services with companies that have collaborated with the administration. A large number of cancellations of service, en bloc, would more than make up for the Congressional Dems' unwillingness to do their job. (And talk about making Congress shake! I think they'd get that message, don't you?). Otherwise, no point ranting on about the Dems. Without real action, we're no better than they are.

I think that there should be a class action lawsuit by all voyeurs who have been arrested over the past six years. In carrying out their activities, they ensured that their victims acts were in no way related to planning or committing acts of terrorism and as such, should be protected from prosecution as reasonable assistance in the GWOT. I think if each member of the lawsuit ponies up about $2500 to the NRC, it has a pretty good chance.

send your biz to qwest, apparently they didn't cave in.

There should be no immunity for the telecoms. Let the victims bring forth the evidence and the courts decide.

This President will stop at nothing to violate the civil liberties of ordinary Americans. If people think this is about terrorism they're misinformed. This is about illegal domestic spying and Bush's attemps to cover up without providing details.

The Democrats should never concede to immmunity. They should press for individual warrants. They should press for more oversight over our covert intelligence services. They are breakin our laws and not for our protection.