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Ex-Navy Instructor Promises to Hit Back If Attacked on Torture
Malcolm Nance, good-spirited though he is, is a pugnacious guy. Nearly 20 years' service in the Navy, including time instructing would-be Navy SEALs how to resist and survive torture if captured. Intelligence and counterterrorism expert. Several years in Iraq as a security contractor. So don't expect him to suffer in silence if his credibility is attacked during testimony to a House panel tomorrow about his personal experiences with waterboarding.
"God forbid if there's even the slightest hint about my credentials," Nance says over tea in a Washington coffee shop. "You will see a spectacle on C-Span. I'll impugn [my attacker's] credibility in public. Let's see him give 20 years in the military, give up his family life, and then he can come talk. If not, shut the hell up."
Nance has become newly controversial for writing on the counterinsurgency/counterterrorism blog Small Wars Journal about his experiences teaching waterboarding for the Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape (SERE) program. He's been subjected to the procedure personally, and unequivocally called it torture in a much-discussed post. Subsequently, a House Judiciary subcommittee contacted him during a business trip in the Middle East and asked him to testify at a hearing on so-called "enhanced interrogation" techniques that kicks off tomorrow morning.
Since he wrote the post, however, a number of comments have appeared on conservative blogs questioning Nance's military service record. (Small Wars Journal had to delete a number of particularly ad hominem comments.) Nance doesn't want to dignify the attacks -- "it's vet-versus-vet warfare," he laments. But he says he heard from a staffer for the Democratic majority on the committee that a Republican aide has been "questioning my credentials" to members in preparation for the hearing. In response, Nance sent the committee "17 years' worth of evaluations" from the Navy and told staffers how to find more material if needed. Emphatic about not getting swiftboated, he warns would-be assailants, "I'll chew your ass out."
Assuming that Nance gets through the hearing without having his integrity dragged through the mud, subcommittee members will get an earful about the unacceptability of reverse-engineering SERE torture-resistance techniques in order to design torture regimens to use on detainees in the war on terrorism.
"Our body of experience shows a friendly approach is most successful" in interrogation, Nance says. SERE's historical memory goes back to the French and Indian Wars in understanding torture methods that captured U.S. troops might face and devising strategies to resist them. He relates the story of Hans Joachim Scharff, a master Luftwaffe interrogator who spurned abusive techniques used by the Gestapo (also, interestingly, termed "enhanced interrogation") in favor of rapport-building. Scharff's legendary success is still studied by U.S. interrogators. Unfortunately, he says, "after Guantanamo, I thought, how can anyone at SERE ever teach the Geneva Conventions again?"
A trove of accumulated institutional familiarity with torture led to a slide that Nance shares, from an old (and unclassified) SERE PowerPoint presentation to trainees. It asks outright, "Why Is Torture The Worst Interrogation Method?" The first answer: "Produces Unreliable Information."
Nance remarks, "Two centuries of knowledge were thrown out the window" when the administration decided after 9/11 that, to use Cofer Black's famous phrase, "the gloves come off." What administration officials mistakenly thought, Nance says, is that "these were actually gloves, not empirical data. Dude, it's not a glove. It's a fact. But they thought it was one more tool in the tool box."
The result, Nance says, is that al-Qaeda now has, essentially, its own SERE school in U.S. detention facilities, as released detainees have given numerous accounts of their interrogations. What's more, he warns that the world is about to see an uptick in the use of torture as "cops in Bogota, everyone" now believes that the U.S. has lent torture its imprimatur -- or, at least, isn't in a credible position to criticize foreign countries' human rights abuses. He says he's testifying in part to help his old comrades in SERE, which he sees as a vital tool for training U.S. troops. "SERE needs to be increased," Nance insists, "but what needs to be stopped is the transfer of SERE techniques to official interrogations."
Josh
Zachary
Uh....Malcolm Nance for Sentate Majority Leader and Democratic Presidential nominee?
Pulls no punches. Sawheet.
November 7, 2007 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Malcom Nance for president.
November 7, 2007 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nance insists, "but what needs to be stopped is the transfer of SERE techniques to official interrogations."
Good luck with that one, Eisenhower.
November 7, 2007 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
dick durbin strikes again.
so the nazis too spurned effective intelligence gathering techniques because they too had to indulge their sadistic impulses at all costs.
lovely.
November 7, 2007 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
My bet is on Rep. Cannon as the first to throw out darts at his record.
http://judiciary.house.gov/default.aspx
Democrats
Berman (D) California, 28th
Boucher (D) Virginia, 9th
Nadler (D) New York, 8th
Scott (D) Virginia, 3rd
Watt (D) North Carolina, 12th
Lofgren (D) California, 16th
Jackson Lee (D) Texas, 18th
Waters (D) California, 35th
Delahunt (D) Massachusetts, 10th
Wexler (D) Florida, 19th
Sánchez (D) California, 39th
Cohen (D) Tennessee, 9th
Johnson (D) Georgia, 4th
Sutton (D) Ohio, 13th
Gutierrez (D) Illinois, 4th
Sherman (D) California, 27
Baldwin (D) Wisconsin, 2nd
Weiner (D) New York, 9th
Schiff (D) California, 29th
Davis (D) Alabama , 7th
Wasserman Schultz (D) Florida, 20th
Ellison (D) Minnesota, 5th
Republican
Sensenbrenner (R) Wisconsin, 5th
Coble (R) North Carolina, 6th
Gallegly (R) California, 24th
Goodlatte (R) Virginia, 6th
Chabot (R) Ohio, 1st
Lungren (R) California, 3rd
Cannon (R) Utah, 3rd
Keller (R) Florida, 8th
Issa (R) California, 49th
Pence (R) Indiana, 6th
Forbes (R) Virginia, 4th
King (R) Iowa, 5th
Feeney (R) Florida, 24th
Franks (R) Arizona, 2nd
Gohmert (R) Texas, 1st
Jordan (R) Ohio, 4th
November 7, 2007 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Finally a kick-ass champion of sanity. Now my fantasies: Nance vs. the entire crew at The Corner, mano a mano. No, maybe just Hinderaker. No, I got it--Cheney.
I sure hope there are some good sound-bites, otherwise the MSM will find a way to ignore him.
November 7, 2007 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
darryl issa is likely to be one of those hit and runners. isn't that his typical practice -- he makes these accusation, then quickly leaves the hearing room.
and, besides, he's a punk.
pleasepleaseplease let issa run his mouth tomorrow.
November 7, 2007 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seems the question here is: Will committee members use a "friendly approach" (as research shows works, even for interrogation) or will they utilize a demeaning and humiliating form of emotional torture (in a misguided attempt to break the witness)?
I applaud Mr. Nance's courage and honesty. He is well qualified to testify as well as to withstand any unprofessional efforts to discredit his testimony.
This man is a hero and a patriot. It's about time someone decided not to cave in to republican steamroller.
November 7, 2007 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
If only Kerry had had some of Nance's nerve. I'd love to see Nance take Cheney on in a one-on-one discussion of enhanced interrogation techniques.
November 7, 2007 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
--he warns would-be assailants, "I'll chew your ass out."--
Um, I'd be careful saying this to the current batch of GOPers. There are quite a few who are in the market for that sort of thing.
November 7, 2007 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Swiftboaters are essentially cowards. I don't see any Reps taking him on and chancing being made a fool.
November 7, 2007 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
We're constantly re-inventing the wheel.
I first heard of Sharff in the early 60s when I was an analyst with a mil intell unit.
During that period I also read memoirs of WW2 interrogators who were unanimous about torture being unreliable.
I've got to believe that the folks who sanctioned all of this torture are having fun.
November 7, 2007 3:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Probably has something to do with whats being ramped up over at Captain's Quarters. They are gearing up to swiftboat this guy.
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/015900.php
November 7, 2007 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Expect the strong smell of urine in the room as GOP chickenhawks get nervous that their tough talk might have consequences and they start pissin their collective pants. LOL
November 7, 2007 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20070405.htm
Hmmm... Scharff vs Scherff?
November 7, 2007 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
This should start the ball rolling. Surely there are other military personnel who know what Nance knows and can testify also.
November 7, 2007 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I way hope Issa opens his moronic, hypocritical, dishonest and manipulating mouth and gets his ass handed to him. He's such a slimy putz. I hope someone blocks the door when he tries to slither away, leaving his usual slime trail.
November 7, 2007 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice one, JC. I'm still laughing at that one.
November 7, 2007 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Nance pulls this off before the committee, and the newsmedia report it accurately, there will be people on Capital Hill, and in the White House, peeing in their pants for being found out and fear of prosecution.
Wetting their pants is about all that's going to happen to them, though. As the Democratic leadership is in bed with the Republicans (witness the Democratic leadership againist Dennis Kucinich, and the pathetic excuses given by Diane Feinstein regarding her support for Mukasey) and are determined to protect the Bush administration from all charges of "war criminal".
The Democratic leadership, too,lives in "denial" for their own criminal part in this horribly misguided war.
You don't have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
November 7, 2007 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nance is bright and eloquent. He has the truth on his side. He'll be tough to make look bad.
Issa is too stupid to keep his mouth shut, so it'll be a bad day for those that want to pretend that torture is not torture. But in the end MSM won't cover this, so it won't matter.
November 7, 2007 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The GOP slime machine won't take Chance on publicly. Not their thing. But I hope he routinely has the ferrets in to detect surveillance of his home and workplace (given his background, that's probably routine), and that he's on good terms with ICE, the IRS, etc. Never know when that equipment he usually travels with will suddenly become contraband and subject to seizure. I hope his clients are similarly well situated, lest his revenue suddenly dry up. Big Dick hates any other elephant seal horning in on his stretch of beach during mating season.
November 7, 2007 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, this is going to be powerful stuff. The highlights ought to be very interesting.
Agree I hope some hit and run experts try their usual tactics.
November 7, 2007 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about Nance conducts a demo on the first Repug who steps over the line?
November 7, 2007 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who needs unreliable information? People trying to rationalize this Republican Oil War....that's who.
November 7, 2007 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Our only hope now is to elect people with the integrity and the balls to go after these war criminals bfore the statute of limitations for their crimes expire. Too bad that simply being a spineless politician isn't a crime. I'd like to see most of this congress go to jail for what they've allowed to happen on their watch.
November 7, 2007 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
"But in the end MSM won't cover this, so it won't matter."
The problem is, if they do cover it, they will give a slimy coward like Issa's comments as much play, and therefore as much validity, as Nance's testimony. See, Kerry, John, circa August 2004.
November 7, 2007 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
The right would be glad if torture became common-place. It satisfies a certain sadistic, nihilistic world-view where might makes right, and power counts more than morality.
The reason Bush and his gang are doing it is to satisfy their own predilictions, and to establish that they have the right to do it.
Also, since they are anti-empiricists, as well as sadists, they probably believe instinctively that hurting people is the best way of getting them to do what you want.
November 7, 2007 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
This rocks. I'm making popcorn.
November 7, 2007 5:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder what Rush Limbaugh will come up with to try and attack Nance? Just another "phony soldier"?
These people are sick.
November 7, 2007 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know Malcolm Nance. I was stationed with Malcolm Nance in the mid-90s and deployed with him several times. He is an egomaniac and an insufferable know it all. He is a good Arabic linguist but not as good as he thinks (but who is?). We almost came to blows once. He lost a bet to me as to who bombed the OK City building (he thought Islamic terrorists, I said a redneck right-wing whack-o). That said - there is no questioning his credentials and he is very, very smart and presents himself impeccably. He will be a stellar witness. And he is 100 percent right.
November 7, 2007 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
No one will challenge this man's credentials. They will just let him have his few minutes and then simply ignore him and what he has said and the MSM will find other, more interesting and important stories to tell us so that we can govern ourselves as informed citizens. If his testimony should somehow register on the radar scope his reputation will be impugned all over the wingnut universe until any mention of the man that might eventually surface in the MSM will be dripping with muck. It is a kind of inverted disinformation laundering that renders the traceability of the lies and character assassination futile and not worth the trouble.
November 7, 2007 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, some on the right may want to impugn this man. But boy oh boy, it's pretty clear that many conservatives are waking up and seeing the god-awful mess that's been perpetrated by bushco. Something tells me there's a certain group of these folks out there that is now sitting up and listening.
Let's give this thing a chance. It sure beats the Prince of Blackwater!
November 7, 2007 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll be waiting for Rush to call Malcolm Nance a phony soldier after Nance's testimony tomorrow.
November 7, 2007 6:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
People who train to resist against torture...don't know what torture is?
November 7, 2007 6:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can we let Nance have Patrick McHenry and Adam Putnam for a few hours of simulated military "training"?
November 7, 2007 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
As for his character impugned by the right: like I said above, I know the guy. I was stationed with him, deployed with him and worked with him. He was not the most popular guy on the block. It was almost like he went out of his way to piss people off. But to be fair, people also did unbelievably stupid and childish things to him, bordering on the criminal in a slightly less PC age, in the days before "sensitivity training". He was stationed for years with people who disliked him so much, that they would cross the street rather than greet him or even look at him. I doubt he'll give a shit that that fat Oxycontin addict Limbaugh will call him names. Nance has endured worse.
November 7, 2007 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can we let Nance have Adam Putnam and Patrick McHenry for a few hours of simulated military "training"?
November 7, 2007 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
What he doesn't seem to understand is that the entire Wingnut movement is founded upon the unequivocal rejection of empiricism and, indeed, of objective reality itself.
November 7, 2007 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could this be the reason:
Obermann’s Special Comment.
Study after study for generation after generation has confirmed that torture gets people to talk, torture gets people to plead, torture gets people to break, but torture does not get them to tell the truth.
Of course, Mr. Bush, this isn’t a problem if you don’t care if the terrorist plots they tell you about are the truth or just something to stop the tormentors from drowning them.
If, say, a president simply needed a constant supply of terrorist threats to keep a country scared.
If, say, he needed phony plots to play hero during, and to boast about interrupting, and to use to distract people from the threat he didn’t interrupt.
November 7, 2007 8:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
1Watt: Now there's a theory! Yes, we have to torture to get people to admit to things that will scare Americans so the torturers can stay in power.... rinse and repeat.
November 7, 2007 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anonymous has told us a couple of times in this thread that Nance can be nasty. And has been. And doesn't care if people are nasty back.
Well, I hate to say this but - finally someone nasty on our side - for once! I'm honestly tired of all the wimps who won't stand up for the Constitution. I'm tired of people wimping out and rolling over for bush. So it's a great relief, really, to find someone who can't be tortured into silence!
Thank you, Mr. Nance! Stand up for America!
November 7, 2007 8:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
They will definitely try to undermine Nance's testimony. Here's what Anonymous was talking about at 3:11 today:
From Captain's Quarters
Posted by coldwarrior415 | November 5, 2007 12:51 PM
"... As expressed in earlier waterboarding discussion, and in particular the recent Nance presentation, is that much of what has entered the discussion amounts to great falsehoods, and to a more pointed distinction, Nance is a charlatan of the highest order. That he has become accepted by a major news outfit, and a good segment of the public, as a knowlegable "expert" source only serves to further cloud the discussion."
coldwarrior415 stayed around until 6:36, countering or mocking anyone who showed support for Nance and his definition of waterboarding. There was also a lot of discussion about needing to use whatever methods are available, because of the nature of this war.
One of the attacks on Nance is that, by describing waterboarding, he violated confidentiality in discussing SERE training. The other is that Nance's description is inaccurate and overblown.
So, yes, they're gearing up against Nance. But presumably, after all his years in that world, he knows what could be in store and how to counter it.
November 7, 2007 9:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Define Coward, see below
anonymous wrote on November 7, 2007 6:06 PM:
I know Malcolm Nance. I was stationed with Malcolm Nance in the mid-90s and deployed with him several times. He is an egomaniac and an insufferable know it all. He is a good Arabic linguist but not as good as he thinks (but who is?). We almost came to blows once. He lost a bet to me as to who bombed the OK City building (he thought Islamic terrorists, I said a redneck right-wing whack-o). That said - there is no questioning his credentials and he is very, very smart and presents himself impeccably. He will be a stellar witness. And he is 100 percent right.
November 7, 2007 10:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess what I am trying to say and poorly articulating is that Nance is smart, knowledgable, tough and a fighter. If anybody is going to stand up to state what should be the obvious, I'm glad it is him. He has my deepest admiration and respect for this and I could only hope to display similar courage if I were in the same position.
November 8, 2007 7:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Anonymous. The fact that you keep coming back and back here and have been so honest about Nance - a hero with warts, one could say - shows how much this matters to you, how deeply you care about the issues.
Thank you! And may we all have the same courage, as you noted, should we end up in a similar situation.
People who stand up give us all courage. I urge other whistle blowers to please come forward and show courage. Write to Josh. Contact someone at the Cafe. Or post there.
This is the time for all of us who love the Constitution to pull together and not back down.
November 8, 2007 8:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
IF ONLY the Democratic leaders had as much confidence, character and righteous indignation as Mr. Nance has. If they did, the Republicans wouldn't be able to make them look like whimpy Bush enablers too afraid to fight for the freedoms that the American voters want them to fight for.
The word "politician", whether Republican or Democrat, describes anyone who places his/her personal ambitions over faithfully serving the American people against those who would abuse and or steal their freedoms. Too many Republicans and Democrats seem to believe that in order to be a "successful" politician, it's better to be a vacilating whore than a unbending defender of the people's rights.
I'd much rather be in a street fight with Mr. Nance beside me than Mrs. Feinstein, Mr. Schumer, Mr. Reid or Mrs. Pelosi. I know Mr. Nance would go down swinging and never abandon me no matter what the personal cost to him. Freedom cannot be taken from men and women of principle. It can only be surrendered!
November 8, 2007 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I've sat back quietly for the past 7 years and watched the self-professed "expert," Malcomn Nance, take advantage of the public's willingness to take at face value what he alleges to be his deep experience with counter terrorism issues while serving in the Navy. I served along side Malcolm Nance for many years and can assure you his largely fictional CV citing his terrorism-related expertise while serving in the Navy is far from accurate. As a retired Navy veteran myself I applaud Senior Chief Nance for his years of dedicated service. I am also conviced that since 9-11 he has gained a lot of experience in the counter-terrorism realm. However, to assert that "From Beirut in 1983 he has deployed on numerous anti-terrorism and counter-terrorism intelligence operations in Balkans, Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa and other small wars in direct support to the principle agencies of the Special Operations and Intelligence Community," is a bold faced lie. Mr. Nance was a sub-par linguist (in all 5 languages he alleges to be fluent in) while in the Navy, and was a marginal performer at best. A glaring example of Mr. Nance's reputation among his former Navy intelligence colleagues is seen in the Navy's response to his request to return to active duty after 9-11. Despite the glaring gap in DoD Arabic linguists and terrorism experts immediately after 9-11, the Navy said "thanks, but no thanks." Would the Navy have done that if Mr. Nance was really the language expert/counter-terrorism guru he purports to be? I think not.
I would caution everyone quick to trumpet Mr. Nance's self-professed expertise and encourage his eagerness for a showdown on C-Span to perform some cursory due dilligence on Mr. Nance's record. As for his submissin of "17 yers worth of evaluations, anyone who spent a career in the military knows that the hyperbole provided in annual evaluations rarely tells the true story. If the public at large really wanted to know if Malcolm Nance is the expert he pretends to be, all they have to do is ask. I'm not convinced they do. So while I applaud his stalwart efforts to recreate himself as a counter-terrorism expert since retiring from the Navy, I'm disappointed in his continuing bravado and inaccurate portrayal of his Navy service. This is not, as Mr. Nance suggests, "vet-on-vet warfare." This is about telling the truth - something Mr. Nance was never very good at. I knew all along this would eventually come back to bite him. Looks like it finally has.
December 3, 2007 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink