Muckraker | Talking Points Memo | Nance, Kleinman, and Waterboarding: The Remix

Nance, Kleinman, and Waterboarding: The Remix

By Spencer Ackerman - November 9, 2007, 3:52PM

Several readers lamented that yesterday's House Judiciary committee hearing on torture with former Navy instructor Malcolm Nance and Colonel Steve Kleinman wasn't on C-Span. Well, you didn't think that would stop TPM, did you?

Thanks to TPM's video ace, Ben Craw, we've distilled the extensive hearing into its dramatic, high-octane essence: Nance's intense opening statement, and a key exchange between Kleinman and Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ). Don't call him pro-torture!

Check it out:

Comments (22)

Again as yesterday, I highly recommend listening to the CBC's As It Happens interview with UN Special Rapporteur on Torture Manfred Nowak.

His dispassionate recounting of his interviews with torture victims and his matter-of-fact answers about the US and torture (Is waterboarding torture? Yes. Should torture ever be used? No.) say even more than Nance and Kleinman could. This man has no agenda other than ensuring that the world abides by the rules of the Geneva Conventions.

http://www.cbc.ca/aih/latestshow.html
"MANFRED NOWAK ON TORTURE "Duration: 00:21:01

"For the last three years, Manfred Nowak has travelled around the world investigating torture. He has seen prisoners with rotting limbs. Another strung up by his wrists with his hands tied behind his back. Even children who have been tortured. He bears witness to all this as the United Nations special rapporteur on torture. Mr. Nowak's term ends in a few months and he is taking stock. We sat him down to talk in a studio in Vienna."

Although this URL is currently good, once today's show is broadcast, it'll be somewhere else in the As It Happens site. This interview was heard in Part 2 of Thursday's As It Happens, and the podcast option lets you select just this interview.

Posted by Roberta
November 9, 2007 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink

Thank you TM.....I was looking for the hearing re-run on Cspan...still not on their site.

they did have Klein 's thing about the Telecom's invading our privacy.

Ya gotta admit that Congressional hearings are VERY interesting of late.

Posted by dixiegrl
November 9, 2007 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink

This poem is dedicated to the 110th congress:

Democrats
Are
Totally
Excellent

Republicans
Are
Perfect
Everyday

Posted by Roland
November 9, 2007 5:52 PM | Reply | Permalink

Can you please give us more of Malcolm Nance's testimony?

Posted by Gary Singleton
November 9, 2007 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink

Does Trent Franks (Repug-AZ)really think the the whole "It's not me asking" line is fooling anybody? I loved Kleinmann's answer. Slam! Made Franks look like a sadistic freak.

Posted by Mary
November 9, 2007 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink

Thanks for that bit, TPM. Truly appreciated. I'll keep my eyes open for a possible chance at seeing the whole thing.

Posted by Carolyn
November 9, 2007 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink

Trent Franks appeal to Allen Dershowitz's article in the paper is infuriating to me.

Dershowit's arguments are an exercise in sophistry, when applied to an Reductio ad absurdum analysis classically flawed.

And in final summation, "in a lurid and insidious circumstance" the recourse of jury nullification covers the realm of these lurid scenarios and have done so throughout history and are a cornerstone of western rule of law.

The suggestion that any moral person would stand idle in the face of an imminent threat of mass destruction is a 'false choice' argument ommiting the middle and a classic example of Reductio ad absurdum.

See my post where I make the logical extension argument that Allen Dershowitz by logical extension supports eating penis's in today's main section of TPM.

I'm ashamed of the United States academic community for not calling Dershowitz to account, and the intellectual laziness of any editoral that would allow his assertions unchallenged in such an intellectual dishonest fashion.

If Dershowitz had submiited that thesis in 101 philosophy as an argument, and bassed the acceptability of torture based on a contrived scenario, I would have ran it accross the backside of my pants in public and 'by logical extension' demonstrated why lurid and insidious scenarios are inappropo to creating public policy and that there is collective wisdom in our current cannon of law to deal with these 'extraordinary' circumstances.

I went to Dershowitz's website and CC'd him my analysis of his arguments and asked him to provide a rebuttal via email or here at this site.

I have yet to hear from him.

I imagine that Dershowitz's professional colleagues are ashamed of his editorial and realize as I do that his arguments are ridiculous.

Dershowitz is a classic example of sophistry and imaginary thinking that includes violence and hate similar to the lie and fallacy of the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" and that editorial is a blatant example of hate speech and inciting violence that would raise alarms at any university if a freshman advocated the same.

I'm disgusted with that man.

Posted by dee illuminati
November 9, 2007 7:19 PM | Reply | Permalink

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Posted by stock-nelikvid
November 10, 2007 8:25 AM | Reply | Permalink

Why did Schumer vote to confirm Torture Man? If he thinks he can pass a law that Torture Man will enforce, first of all, why the heck do we need such a law? It's already illegal! Passing such a law will imply that it may not have been illegal before. Schumer is giving the Bushies a free pass for the most disgraceful lawbreaking since Nixon. And that's saying a lot considering the record smashing 29 convicted criminals in the Reagan Administration.

Second, who says Schumer will manage to get such a law passed, especially over the President's veto. Reality. Schumer is in la la land. He wants to try to position himself in the center between right and wrong, which is nothing better than being an apologist. Come up Chuck. Grow some stones already!!! Where is the fight for what's right? Where is it? You are a lollipol liberal. You stand there and get licked over and over until you are just the stick up your rear end. Wake up already! You should have zero tolerance for lawbreaking. It's not half right. Torture is not half right. It's not okay to forgive. It's not okay to just put behind us on the scale the Bushies did.

You've forgotten right and wrong Chuck. You've just shunted right and wrong and the rule of law aside for political expediency. Grow up again. Why is it so hard for you to do the right thing instead of the politically expedient thing? Why don't you lead, instead of making us push you into doing the right thing? Your vote for Torture Man exemplifies everything that is wrong with the Democratic Party again. Shape up Schumer, or you will be left behind in politics.

Posted by Duck Soup
November 10, 2007 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink

Yow, this video has been removed from YouTube? Anyone know where a copy is? TPMMedia?

Posted by Utopia
November 11, 2007 12:53 AM | Reply | Permalink

Cancel that. Must have been some kind of YouTube glitch. It's still there.

Posted by Utopia
November 11, 2007 12:54 AM | Reply | Permalink

wow, one of the most important topics today, and no other site has this and only 11 comments.
shame on america for not protecting the Constitution, shame.

Posted by GustavMahler
November 11, 2007 2:47 AM | Reply | Permalink

Very nice this blog =)

Posted by camelcigar
November 11, 2007 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink

With the affirmation of Judge Mukasey, we can watch all investigations of what the White House did leading up to the Iraq war, torture, war crimes and the telecom participation in spying on Americans prior to 9/11 fade into the sunset.

Not just because of Republican interference, but also because the Democrats are going to say, "it's best just to put this behind us and concentrate on the future" - you see, they too, have been party to the illegalities and the war crimes.

The democrats, just like the republicans, didn't put judge Mukasey in for nothing.

You don't have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

Posted by Dennis
November 11, 2007 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink

I have a pretty high threshold for pain, but I don't feel tolerant toward cruelty. Americans torturing belong in jail or psychiatric facilities, because we, the culture of the West, have declared that sort of behavior unacceptable.

When they pioneered it, the Spanish Inquisition used waterboarding, for example, to coerce admissions of devil-friendliness, Jewish activities and Muslimity. And I'm sure they considered it torture. Justified by supreme authority.

Posted by Joe Monster
November 12, 2007 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink

Gee.... I too just don't understand why Chuck Schumer won't grow some stones.... NOT!

Or why Nanci Pelosi gets elected to office, so she can continue to declare "Impeachment is off the table". Golly gee willikers...

I'll admit with some shame, that I voted for Bush the first term..... I'm pretty damn conservative... no... I mean the real kind, that actually wants to conserve something.

What I want to happen in Washington, more than anything else, is to see Dick Cheney... followed by G.W. Bush, doing the "perp walk" walk in full wrist and ankle shackles, impeached... (just for the warm up act), and then tried for criminal offenses, including treason and war crimes, and then given the maximum penalties available under the law, as it was BEFORE they came to office. (They have had provisions passed since then to protect them from prosecution for "war crimes". I kid you not.)

I would like to see the same thing happen to EVERY ELECTED OFFICIAL, regardless of party, that supported these criminals, and their punishment should be the maximum allowed for under law as well.

It should then be made clear, that anyone who tramples the rights of Americans, and who knowingly violates their oath of office, will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and a 30 day Grace period granted, for those who might have a sudden change of heart about public service. Of course, most of the politicians who have done illegal things would retire, and Washington would be damn near empty for the first time in it's history.

Many will clammer... "..but the crisis will tear our nation apart!".... those who have been swilling the cultural/political thorazine. NOT doing anything IS tearing our country apart.

I am amazed how many folks can't see past their personal political preferences, to the root of the problem.... corruption, and illegal behavior served up bi-partisan style.

So long as folks cop to "right and left" politics, not a damn thing will change.

Wake up, for gosh sakes!

Jeez...

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November 13, 2007 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink

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Nance, Kleinman, and Waterboarding: The Remix

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