There needs to be a rethinking about the "gang of eight" or the "gang of four" that passes for
Congressional oversight. Whatever its intentions it has be come a means
of giving cover to the White House while keeping Congress
muzzled. Never again should the President and his
minions be allowed to violate the law, the Constitution
and morality while members of Congress are
informed and remain mute.

Let's go, Blue America, MoveOn.

"Start snitchin?"

Methinks' there's more than one Capitol Hill lawmaker that fears getting the "Don Siegelman Treatment" by this Administration.

It has happened...

Shame on Harman. How many times is this now that we have found out about illegal activity (wire taps, torture, etc) only to learn that our democratic representatives have know about this behavior - in no uncertain terms - for years?

I'm so disappointed by these people. Really. WTF do they go to Washington to do? I'm confused. Is it just work for the mega-corporations and military industrial complex, or do they go there to s**t on the constitution too?

How long are we going to put up with this behavior before someone has to take responsibility?

If Rep. Harman knew about the existence of the tapes, then she must have been aware that the CIA denied their existence in (at least) two courts of law involving widely publicized cases. This means, in effect, that members of two branches of gov't, Congress and Executive, conspired against the third branch, to withhold information the courts are entitled to. This is nothing less than a constitutional crisis (yet another), which needs to be addressed, either by holding the CIA in contempt for perjury or through legislation to permit disclosure to the courts, under special circumstances, by those privy to the secret information.

Perhaps I'm unfamiliar with the protocols involved, but is Rep. Harman unaware, after 7 years of dealing with this crew, that the most certain and reliable way to get evidence suppressed is to ask for it, and the most infallible way to get evidence destroyed is to ask people not to destroy it?

Or maybe she's not aware, and she should spend a few lunch hours catching up with her colleague Rep. Conyers.

I have been allowed to post as a moderate on this website and welcomed to do so, even if I have a bit different take than the majority opine here.

I have always stated that interrogation is only defensible when it meets jury nullification, and that is problematic when one sees how the scooter libby case was handled..

But all the same, this whole scenario where for the 'most part' well intentioned people 'drank the koolaid' that was brewed by a small and determined segment of the GOP (the neocons) and was cowardly allowed to happen by the majority of the congress and the senate, has brought this issue up yet again...

But to reiterate. There are times when torture is "ETHICAL" but the onus is sooo high that the act must be performed by the most Sr. person present, and that that act must be reported, and that a jury nullification process initiated based on the actionable intel gained.

I have not been online, flu.. but this really disappoints me. When I consider the cascading effect of all the mistakes pre-911 contained in the 911-report, the pre-war intelligence (or lack thereof) the post invasion mistakes of Iraq, widely acknowledged, and the most recent NIE (which it seemed was a real struggle to get right) I find it sad that the public fixates on a private Lindsey or two circumstances where (the policy) was WRONG!

I want to point out as a mitigating principle that it was "the policy stupid" that created the circumstances that the tapes contained.

I'm much more angry at the people who authorized that policy, created that culture.. than what is on those tapes!

It would be letting off the hook those responsible to vent anger on the 'individuals' in those tapes and ignore how it came to be (policy) those tapes were created.

I hope the people in those tapes are granted immunity for their testimony, and can do so behind a screen and with voice recognition filtering technology.

There are times that torture is indeed ethical, the lurid and insidious arguments that the neocons authored.. but it is also illegal and that never changed. It requires jury nullification.

I think to get to the circumstance where we address the policy that allowed this to happen, to allow the public to hear the conditions and circumstances, and timelines of awareness, that immunity to be granted.

I would love to know what the interrogator would answer if asked, would you have dunked him in the water again if you had known the basis of the threat was an error.

I sure hope these guys weren't tortured over nuclear bomb making in Iran.

But this is the moment when the same damn good common sense that always made me object to torture feels that railroading CIA is not the best option now.

I supported a light sentence in the Ft. Meade case as well.

Same principles posted here.

this is sad...

There is no other way to look at it than Harmon and Rockefeller decided to keep their jobs while people were tortured. It was their call, and it exposes their priorities. It is sickening.

Thank god the readers of this sight don't make policy. I am glad though that they live in a country that allows ignorance to have a voice.

Jason, it's spelled site not sight! Another thing, the readers on this site consist of a vast number of the Washington elite and they do make policy. As for ignorance ... you'll find it everywhere but not likely here.

Not that it matters these days - but Harman has committed a crime. I don't care what the classification was - classification does not give anyone the right to commit, aid or abet a crime. These tapes were subpoenaed in the Moussaoui trial, and the 9/11 committee. If she knew of their existence, then she is complicit in obstruction of justice. These lawmakers just do not understand that they are subject to the constitution of the United States of America and its laws. She has broken the law. No, she will not be prosecuted, because we have ceased to be a nation of laws, and have become a nation of men (and women). We all know that to be true, and we all know that if we prosecuted are laws as required by the oaths that are elected officials and officers take, half our executive and legislative branches would be on trial. This is the mess this crimiinal regime has created for our country.

The regulars on this thread know I have consistently supported the Democrats in their investigations of BushCo. Regretablly -at least regarding Harmon & Rockefeller this support appears to have been misplaced. Unless & until the Democrats start listening to and become better lead by stalwarts like Feingold & Sheldon White we & our collective liberties now are in clear & present danger.
What we really need is some "black belt " alanon Democratic Leader to stand up to this dangerous dry drunk who calls himself President .(Co-dependents who enable abusers only invite & encourage more abuse). We need another Barbara Jordan. McCain to his credit has come out strong against the destruction of the tapes.
We better start looking for credible candidates to run against Harmon , Rockefellers ,and others ,

Carl & Jason

I agree with Carl, finish your articulation Jason. But to Jason I think it is important to focus on the Neoconservatives and not impugne AIPAC though the Neoconservatives are also a segment of that group as well as the Republican and Democratic party.

I make this observation familiar with the Lawrence A. Franklin espionage case and the seriousness of the issues that surround neoconservative's acts.

And that is why when it was suggested: that is was a "N-word" to refer to "neoconservatives" an appeal upon the part of the 'guilty neocons' to group themselves in with those whom meet and organize legally in our representative form of government 'AIPAC' that a small group of web-sphere people PERSISTED when the OSI and OSP was operating years ago, maintained that label, and used it when we were accussed of anti-semitic sentiments, NOTHING further from the truth could be true!

You almost needed a new word to describe this peculiar segment of political beliefs and behaviour that could be isolated and identified outside of the majority of Americans whom are Jewish.

But mentioning AIPAC as a blanket of the acts of those whom commit treason, broke laws, or are war criminals like the Sr. neocons is not appropo nor factually correct.

Did the AIPAC crowd drink the koolaid? yeah they damn sure did. But was there malice or ignorance? In the analysis you will find that there is a small group that orchestrated much of the blowback policy we are discussing as a culture now.

But it is really important to focus objectively on whom did what when, whom had what actionable intelligence timeline, when.. and whom cooked the data!

If anybody should be DAMNED angry it is the larger AIPAC community.

And keep in mind, that I will routinely call out the Hypocrisy of the ADL and those whom seek to cower behind the anti-semitic charge as equally vigorously as those scoundrels whom wrap themselves in a US flag.

And that is now my larger concern.. that somehow the press and public takes there eye off of the 'cause' of these scandals, crimes, and treason and somehow goes blanket with 'anti-semitic' themes which are wrong!

To be sure.. those whom orchestrated this policy want the public distracted with private Lyndie and her prisoner on a leash photo, they want you to discuss that, and NOT the manner in which the policy where that leash found it's way into that prison in the first place.

Lets be careful to focus on those whom deserve criticism and those whom do not, lets stand up to the ADL shills who are at times 'apologists' for these neoconservatives, and even allow for an understanding of their time-line of actionable intelligence as well. Are some of the previous ADL statements seemingly 'out of line' as the NARATIVE changes?

Hopefully the ADL and AIPAC will join the larger public in denouncing what these neoconservatives have done and become more vigilant in the future to prevent this happening again.

Jason.. focus on facts.

Karen Kwiatkowski has well illustrated where the origins of these debacles originated, it was "US-neoconservative" not a Jewish policy.

Lets be careful here, but bold enough like Karen and others to call a spade a spade and stand up to the race card antics of the ADL.

If anybody oughta be pissed it is the majority of the AIPAC members whom were cruelly mislead and now maligned by those whom group them with the guilty.

America is damage and our being the moral standard for all nations now means nothing.

So who's now the moral standard for all the nations?