Yeah I think Clemens and Pettitte jucing while winning the Yankees World Series championships is a bit more serious, expecially given how bad Gagne was.

ya if Gag-Me was on juice, it was Hawiian Punch...he was juicing when he was a stopper...5 years ago.

Before everyone gets wrapped up in selfish and idiotic arguments about whose team had the least number of juicers and whose team had the most, let's not forget the main point: Major League Baseball has been screwing over ALL its fans for at least the past decade, probably much longer.

Guys, obviously I know Gagne was a liability, not an asset, for the 2007 Sox. But the result isn't the issue. The issue is the intent -- that Gagne's 'roid use was at least well-suspected among the Sox front office, and they still acquired him. That's pretty much a wink and a nod.

No, I'm not saying the Sox are the only guilty club. Clearly they're not. From the Mitchell report, it's clear that the Yankees clubhouse in 1999-2001 was a hub for steroids & HGH, as were numerous clubhouse throughout the majors. But I reserve the right as a Yankee fan to pick on the Red Sox at every opportunity. Unapologetically. Got it?

Spencer...No prob!...wouldn't have it any other way! Merry Christmas!

So Spencer what you are saying is that the Yankee's slide began about the same time as the clamps started coming down on juicers like Giambi and if only the hatedYankees could go back in time then glory would again be theirs? You see, they continue to bid for the highest priced has beens in the business and those guys are only good if they continue to juice. Adios Yankees dynasty! One spoiled brat does not a winning team make.

Phil James, that was some impressive gibberish.

There were some ex-Red Sox I expected to be on the list who weren't there, guys like Kevin Millar and Alex Gonzalez and Trot Nixon who went from hitting 20+ home runs a year to 8 or 9 as soon as they started testing for steroids. And I say this as a Sox fan who's written 3 books on the team. The sad thing is that this report doesn't really exonerate anyone; it just mentions guys fingered by these suppliers.

What I can't understand is why the Red Sox front office would expect playoff-caliber performance from a 'cleaned-up' pitcher whose past performance (and trade value) was tied directly to steroid and HGH use.

Wow...if Bonds can pull an OJ on his upcoming trial, and I'd bet he will get off, he may very well end up playing for some American League team next year.

Today, he isn't the story. But as his trial approaches, he'll be back in the headlines.

The real stain is first and foremost on MLB as it lagged years behind other pro sports in actually outlawing steroids. There will be no way to repair longterm records, though. It's reasonable to estimate Bonds merely reached the Aaron milestone 2 years early. How can baseball fairly determine who was juiced 20 and 30 years ago to sett all the stats straight? Especially after admitting that some juicing still can't be caught on tests.

The actual number of players involved could be 2 or 3 times higher than the list displays. And some of these guys, like Bonds and Clemens, have been known to spend enormous hours working out to stay in shape, so it's not like they were not devoting considerable effort into their craft, too.

I don't excuse them. I simply say that team comparisons are meaningless, as are eras. How many pitchers used illegal tricks on the balls? How many batters corked their bats?

Cheating's been a part of the game. As it has in other sports. Hell, without booze and cortisone and other painkillers, could The Mick have lasted on rotten knees so long? Did hangovers help The Babe focus?

You can only clean things up to a certain point till the next trick gives a few folks an added edge.

I'm a fan, but I'm not a fanatic. Pampered boys with exceptional athleticism are just playing games after all. This scandal doesn't rank with a single death caused by a dishonest politician. If baseball's supposed to be about purity, that's a standard few professions could meet.

Partisan relative morality is really nothing more than plain old partisanship.

Spencer, your approach is to be applauded insofaras it illustrates a specific case in which management was willing to look the other way on illegal drug use.

I agree with other posters that you should be encouraged to find similar evidence for your own team, or any other. (And, as a Cubs fan, I don't have a strong opinion vis Yankees v. Red Sox.)

The point is that EVERYBODY -- team owners, players, and fans -- chose for many years to look the other way. The tenor of the report (the summary in the first ~20 pages, anyway) seems to come down pretty heavily on the players' association. Mostly because they would not cooperate at all with the investigation, and because, through the collective bargaining process, they resisted drug testing.

But management shares in the blame. I think that's the take-home message of your own investigation.

Having super-human guys out there doing amazing things -- the spectacle of the sport -- appealed to everybody. So for 20 or 30 years we all looked the other way.

-- ARG

He must have stopped juicing right after his trade to the sox because he sucked.

"Some digging on Gagne and steroids IS the issue. Has had a checkered medical past throughout career including minor leagues. Lacks the poise and commitment to stay healthy, maintain body and re invent self. What made him a tenacious closer was the max effort plus stuff . . . Mentality without the plus weapons and without steroid help probably creates a large risk in bounce back durability and ability to throw average while allowing the changeup to play as it once did . . . Personally, durability (or lack of) will follow Gagne . . ."

Looking at the longer version of this, the most likely conclusion is that the Red Sox suspected steroid use in Gagne's past but knew he was no longer taking them, which is hardly a significant attack on the management. However, no conclusions should be drawn from this brief exchange, because we don't know what conclusions Theo and the rest actually came to in the end. There is another quote floating about their discussion of Brendan Donnelly, which indicates the team's suspicions of his steroid use, but says nothing about what they thought when they finally acquired him.

And in both cases, again, the most likely conclusion is that they suspected past steroid use, but believed that if it was true it no longer was. Gagne's suckage supports this theory.

You have it all wrong. There wasn't any moral calculus here. Theo and the Sox front office was just trying to put together the best team possible. If Gagne had been on steroids when he was pitching his best, that's a pretty important piece of information if you're trying to project his future performance.

yankess suck...go red sox!

At least post the entire story if you're going to try and rake up some muck.

What you just happened to "forget" to add from the scout's reply:

". . . Mentality without the plus weapons and without steroid help probably creates a large risk in bounce back durability and ability to throw average while allowing the changeup to play as it once did . . . Personally, durability (or lack of) will follow Gagne . . ."

Sounds like the scout was warning Theo what Gagne was going to be like without the juice - and what Gagne turned out to be on the Sox.

And I wouldn't be smug, Yankee-haters. Don't forget that the primary sources of this report came from within the Yankee and Met clubhouses. What are they going to know about players in Kansas City or Phoenix or Boston? Does anyone seriously believe that the names on this list are the only ones who took performance enhancers?

As for ARod, this is purely my opinion, but that will be the next story to break. Canseco is already questioning why he was listed in the Mitchel report. You can say all you want about the guy but he's be right.