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Army Official: Yes, Waterboarding Breaks International Law
With the parade of administration officials who've testified about waterboarding in the past several weeks -- that it was once legal, but is not anymore (though it could be found legal again); that it may "feel like" torture, but that doesn't mean it is torture; that as the U.S. practices it, it bears no relation to the technique used by the Spanish Inquisition (it's more in line with the Khmer Rouge way of doing things) -- you can be excused for feeling more than a little confused.
And you may have despaired of ever seeing a clear, unequivocal exchange on the topic with a government official. Like this one from today's hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, with Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency:
Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) asked, "General, do you believe that waterboarding is consistent with Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions?"
After pausing a moment to think, Maples replied, "No, sir, I don’t."
"Do you think it’s humane?" Levin asked.
"No, sir, I think it would go beyond that bound."
Later, Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL), apparently uncomfortable with the deceptive simplicity of that exchange, added some much needed context, pointing out that CIA interrogators had waterboarded detainees "only three times," and that they had done so before the Supreme Court ruled in 2006 that the Geneva Conventions must apply.
Josh
Zachary
General Maples,
Please go to Victoria's Secret and pick out a pink slip.
Warm Regards,
W
February 27, 2008 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Where is the senator's respect for our military?
February 27, 2008 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thus implying that he needs to be told by the Supreme Court that inalienable human rights are, in fact, inalienable.
February 27, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
("He" being Sen. Jeff Sessions, that is.)
February 27, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
How many people can we torture before it becomes problematic?
February 27, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
To the good senator from Alabama...
Since all this is only about United States interrogators who waterboarded detainees "only three times,", and the senator is a fine, upstanding republican, I must posit the following:
Are you still not gay if you suck cock only three times?
Also, Is it inhumane, and illegal, to torture 500 times? Is it inhumane, and illegal, to torture once?
February 27, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let the war crimes trials begin.
February 27, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is it still murder if you murder only once? What about torture that leads to death?
February 27, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
To the attention of Mssrs Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Mukasey, Sen Sessions et al:
Gentlemen, a country at war is, of course, filled with busy work for men such as yourselves, which offers little time for you to reflect on issues the need to be carefully thought through. Therefore, I offer this missive to clarify the position of thinking, progressive (as apposed to unthinking and regressive) persons on a certain pertinent subject, that is the subject of torture. In the fullness of time, and having examined all manner of issues related to the subject, I have come to the following conclusions.
If you are willing to commit any act of torture under any circumstances, you ARE a torturer. Period. If you seek to redefine torture so that what you do does not fall wihin the definition of torture as it has been defined by international conventions which you have signed, you are STILL a torturer. You are a COWARDLY torturer who is afraid to admit to what you are doing, but you are STILL a torturer. If you refuse to define an act as torture when YOU do it, but wish to keep it in the category of torture when it is done to you or yours, you ARE a torturer. You are a hypocritical torturer, but you are STILL a torturer. If you commit acts in secret that have heretofore been called torture, and try to hide those acts from the world, you KNOW you are a torturer. The very fact that you hide what you are doing, and destroy the evidence of what you have done, is PROOF that you know that what you have done is wrong.
When it has two legs and beltloops, it IS a pair of pants. Whether they're made of denim, gabardine, cotton or wool; whether they're red, blue, brown or cammo; whether they fit like a second skin or bunch in the crotch and pinch your balls; they ARE a pair of pants, and no amount of redefinition on your part is going to change that fact. Just so, those who engage in acts of torture are torturers.
Now, gentlemen, having established WHAT you are, what exactly distinguishes you from your enemies? By engaging in torture yourself, you have negated the high minded ideals you claim to be fighting for, so what is left to distinguish you from your enemies? The only thing uglier than the fact that the leaders of the free world have become torturers, is the linguistic gymnastics they engage in to excuse themselves. Not only are they torturers, they are cowards and hypocrites to boot.
Thank you for your attention,
To the attention of the American people:
The lights are dimming in the city on a hill. As the world erects walls around fortress America, we must ask the last true Americans to please bring the flag out with them, those who remain hiding in the dark won't want it. Nor will they need what it stands for.
February 27, 2008 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bravo!!! Well said!
Should be a blog in its own right.
February 27, 2008 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was refreshing to watch this clip and see someone actually answer the questions in their testimony. I had almost lost hope that it could be done.
February 27, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
GOP Member of Congress is asking that we believe in fantasy:
- How does the Member of Congress who said this . . . know this to be true?
- How does the Member of Congress know that there have been no subsequent abuse of POWs?
- If there are "only" X-cases of it having been done, why does the President want to keep the "option" open: To permit more CIA abuses, and "not deprive" the CIA of this "option"?
- How many times does this Member of Congress know that waterboarding has or hasn't been used during rendition or the other blacksties, which have not been reviewed by the Court?
February 27, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is exactly what I've been waiting for. These people are Men (or Women) who should value their integrity.
Someone who values their own integrity answers as the Lt. General did here. They don't lie and squirm and equivocate. They answer a direct question like a Man (or Woman). Yes, even if it will put your job on the line.
It seems that we've now seen dozens(?) of pretty accomplished professional adults who have been completely unable to muster the courage to do what the Lt. General just did.
February 27, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can anyone answer the following question for me?
What is required to bring charges of violation of the Geneva Convention? What authority is recognized for making such charges and would the charges then be taken up at the Hague or some other internationally designated place and/or tribunal? Just curious.
February 27, 2008 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
"...Why don't the Generals support the troops?..."
February 27, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Finally. One without a double hernia that actually knows why he wears the uniform.
February 27, 2008 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I may be a little skeptical but if generals and the Admin. are suddenly admitting that water boarding
happened and it's a bad thing. And by these confessions it will all go away. What else have they done? This can't be good.
February 27, 2008 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples and Sec. Def. Gates are not Cambone and Rumsfeld.
The issue of torture blew up in the media as a consequence of what Cambone and Rumsfeld authorized as getting tough and resulted in Abhu Graib when the photos were released. And yes there was abuse that was authorized and condoned specifically by Cambone under direction from Rumsfeld.
Then the documented water boarding was done by the CIA. where of course there is no tapes.
But I personally think that Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples did answer the question and did so without the weasel words of the former attorney general, which I respect, and I feel Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples represents our country favorably which is the tradition of the uniformed military professional.
I also admire Sec. Def. Gates efforts to bring to a close Gitmo and his willingness to take the sh1t pile that Rumsfeld and Cambone created and leave a post at an American Unniversity and attempt to repair the damages that Cambone and Rumsfeld created.
It is sad that Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples even has to be associated with this line of questioning and the distinction is not lost on where the "abuse and torture" originated with, Rumsfeld.
On November 29, 2005, Gen. Pace was present at a press conference given by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, where Rumsfeld said that "the United States does not have a responsibility" to prevent torture by Iraqi officials. Pace disagreed with Rumsfeld, saying "It is the absolute responsibility of every U.S. service member, if they see inhumane treatment being conducted, to intervene, to stop it".[6][7]
Maples deserves the benefit of the doubt that Americans extended to our troops before the Rumsfeld and Cambone era.
I don't find this TPM material and think that Maples is as active in seking to "fix" the mistakes of the neoconservative crazies as most TPM readers.
I admired his candor and ability to give a yes or no to a simple question, thank God the adults are back in charge.
February 27, 2008 8:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you that Lt.Gen. Maples gave an honorable, honest answer and may well have been one of the many in the military who disagreed from the beginning with the philosophy/policies of Rumsfeld/Cambone et al. We know the JAGs objected to the enhanced interrogation and they were ignored by Haynes (currently lawyering up in civilian life, I'd guess). I disagree, however, that this is not TPM material.
I do think that the people inside the institutions of this administration whose integrity, sense of justice, or basic humanity has been pushed to the point of rebellion (e.g. Col Davis, James Comey, etc) have been essential to exposing even the edges of the clusterf- that is Bush's legacy that we know about. I do not know enough about Maples to say, but some of these people are true American heros.
February 28, 2008 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL), asserted CIA interrogators had waterboarded detainees "only three times."
I have two questions for Senator Sessions:
1. Does that make it acceptable?
2. Did the CIA, in the name of the American people, only waterboard detainees three times, or only waterboard three detainees (who knows how many times.)
Forgive my cynicism, but it seems like the honorable Mr. Sessions might be putting a bit of a spin on the facts and what they mean.
February 27, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is Gen. Maples going to be spending more time with his family now?
February 28, 2008 12:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
only three times huh ???
so george bush is only guilty of THREE COUNTS OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
that's good to know ...
February 28, 2008 6:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
In the patriot act the law was changed to say that conspiracy to commit torture would carry the same penalties as torture--minimum 20 years in prison for each act of torture, maximum life in prison if the torture results in death. (for the actual torturer, the maximum sentence is the death penalty).
That fact was noted in a footnote in one of the DOJ torture memos and I'd really love to know whether that was changed in any of the later modifications to the patriot act.
February 28, 2008 10:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, a man in an American uniform who actually has the guts to speak the truth without a lot of legalalitic word play and double speak. Does not he know whom he is dealing with? His Republican Nazi masters will not be pleased and he will probably end up with the "Rommel treatment" except without the "died in combat" cover story. Poor bastard...
Oh yeah, a question for VP Cheney while I am at it. If the Republican Theocrats had their way and outlawed homosexuality, thus making your own daughter an enemy of the state and therefore a terrorist, would it be okay to waterboard her?
Thought not...
February 28, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
What if we did it more Khmer Rouge and less Spanish Inquisition style?
Still no?
Okay, what if we just had military guys stand around and take pictures of her hooded naked body on top of a pile of other hooded naked women?
What? Still no?
Oh come on! She would probably like it and so would most of the Rebublican administration. I mean at least the few that are not closet gays or pedophiles.
There has got to be at least a couple of them.
Right?
February 28, 2008 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
While on the subject of torture:
New photos released from Abu Ghraib:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Wired_publishes_new_disturbing_photographs_of_0228.html
February 28, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
ABSURD. If we want the renditions and torture to stop. If we want to regain our standing within the international community. We MUST keep Bush from using the veto on the Intelligence Authorization Act this week.
See http://blog.psaonline.org/2008/03/03/under-one-flag-one-manual-on-interrogation for more on this.
March 3, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
When a tortured detainee tells the interrogator what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear, that's OK with Bush. In Bush's world, he hears only what he wants to hear anyway.
And disregards the rest.
March 8, 2008 12:02 AM | Reply | Permalink