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Waxman and Clemens' Lawyers Go Head to Head
I’m not sure if we’ll be adding a category for Best Legal Eagle Blowup to the Golden Duke Awards, but if we did, this might take the prize.
Roger Clemens' hearing today was mostly a cordial one, all things considered. But at one point, things broke down to the point where Clemens' two top-flight lawyers Lanny Breuer (formerly President Clinton's special counsel in the Lewinsky affair) and Rusty Hardin were standing behind him, their hands on his shoulders in an attempt to silence him, shouting at Waxman. Here's the video:
The issue itself was over a rather minute detail. As I understand it (not being a Mitchell Report-ologist), Brian McNamee, Clemens former trainer and main accuser, has said that Clemens first approached him about using steroids and human growth hormone after a party at slugger Jose Canseco's Miami home in 1998. Clemens' lawyers have gone after McNamee's credibility on this, offering proof that Clemens was in fact not at that party. McNamee says he saw him there.
Again, the party in and of itself is not a very consequential detail. But since it goes to McNamee's credibility, Clemens' lawyers have been hammering on it. And during Rep. Henry Waxman's (D-CA) questions, Waxman revealed that when Waxman's committee inquired after the name of Clemens' nanny at the time who was supposedly at this party, Clemens' lawyers immediately tracked her down and interviewed her at Clemens' home. The nanny would supposedly be a key witness on this ultimately inconsequential detail.
Waxman didn't allege anything exactly, but it was clear from his questions that he was hinting that Clemens' lawyers had wanted to get to the nanny first in order to make sure she remembered things "correctly." Clemens' lawyers were enraged, Hardin at one point shouting in response to one of Waxman's questions about whose idea that was, "It was my idea! It was my idea to investigate what witnesses know, just like any other lawyer in the free world does!"
Transcript of the exchange is below.
WAXMAN: You have a tough job today; you said you find it very hard to have to prove a negative.But your attorneys have provided documentation to rebut the passage in the Mitchell report about a party at Jose Canseco's house.
I don't view this passage as anything central to the issue before us, but it's important that we know if it's true. And your attorneys and you have been very forceful in telling us that the report is wrong. You were not at Jose Canseco's house between June 8th and June 10th, 1998, when the Toronto Blue Jays were playing in Miami.
In your deposition, you were asked, "Could you have been at this house during this time period, June 8th to June 10, 1998?" And you answered, "No."
Is that a correct statement?
CLEMENS: On the date, sir?
WAXMAN: Did you answer no to the question whether you were at Jose Canseco's party?
CLEMENS: If you'll repeat your question, then I can -- please.
WAXMAN: Well, during your deposition, you were asked, could you have been at his house during this time period, which was June 8th to 10th, 1998.
And you answered no.
You've given us supporting materials. You provided an affidavit from Jose Canseco that said you were not at his house during the team party on June 9th. You provided a golf receipt from 8:58 a.m. on June 9th, which showed that at least that morning you were purchasing merchandise at the golf course next to Canseco's house. And you provided excerpts from a baseball broadcast that reported that you were not at the team party.
And these came up when several other members asked you about it.
It's all very helpful.
When the committee took Mr. McNamee's deposition, he had a completely different recollection, as he has today.
WAXMAN: He had a clear recollection that Mr. Clemens was at Mr. Canseco's home.
So our committee staff investigated this issue, and we received conflicting evidence. I'm not surprised by conflicting recollections of a party of around 10 years ago that was really of no special importance. But Jose Canseco thinks Roger Clemens and Mr. Canseco's ex-wife weren't at the party. Mr. Canseco's ex-wife, Jessica Fisher, believes that she was there and so was Debbie Clemens.
Mr. McNamee told us that one key witness who would know whether you were at Canseco's house for that party was your former nanny. And the committee staff asked your attorneys for her name last Friday so we could contact here. We made additional requests for her name and contact information over the weekend.
Around 5 p.m. on Sunday afternoon, committee staff made another request and asked your attorneys to refrain from contacting the nanny before the committee staff could speak with her.
It wasn't until Monday afternoon that your attorneys provided the nanny's name and phone number to the committee. And it wasn't until yesterday that the committee staff actually spoke with the nanny.
Are you aware of all this time frame, time line about the nanny?
CLEMENS: I'm not sure of all the time frame. I know that...
WAXMAN: OK. Well, what the nanny said to us when we finally contacted her yesterday was important in several respects.
First, she said that she was at Mr. Canseco's home during the relevant time period. In fact, she said that she and Mrs. Clemens and the children stayed overnight at the Canseco's.
Secondly, she told us she did not remember any team party as described in the Mitchell report.
And third, she said that she did not -- she did remember that you were at that home during the relevant time period, although she didn't know how long you stayed or whether you spent the night with your family.
WAXMAN: The third point directly contradicted your deposition testimony, where you said you were not at Mr. Canseco's home at any point June 8 to June 10, 1998. But it's entirely understandable to me. It was 10 years ago.
Here's what puzzles me about your actions. We have a transcript of the interview with the nanny whose name I'm not going to release to protect her privacy. But in this transcript, she says that on Sunday, this last Sunday, you called her and asked her to come to your Houston home. She had not seen you in person since 2001. But after you called, she went to your home on Sunday afternoon.
And I'd like to read a portion of the transcript of the committee interview.
"Question: When you said you didn't remember a party, what did he say?"
"Answer: He says, 'You know, the reason you don't remember that party is because I wasn't there.' He said, 'Because I know that he was playing with Jose.'"
"Question: So did he ask you, 'Do you remember a party?' and then you said you did not remember a party?"
"Answer: That's right."
She also told the committee staff that you told her that she should tell the committee the truth, and after your meeting, an investigator working for you called her and asked her a series of additional questions.
Your meeting took place two days after the committee staff made a simple request for your former nanny's name, and then it took 24 hours after your meeting for your attorneys to provide her name to the Republican and Democratic staffs.
And that's why I'm puzzled about this. Why was it your idea -- was it your idea to meet with her before forwarding her name to us or did someone suggest that to you?
CLEMENS: Mr. Chairman, I believe that, just like through this whole hearings, I was doing y'all a favor by finding a nanny that was supposedly came in question.
WAXMAN: You might have been trying to do us a favor, but who told you, you should invite her to your house -- that you haven't seen her in all those years?
(UNKNOWN): Mr. Chairman, this is unfair. What his lawyers tell him is unfair for you to ask. And I well tell you...
WAXMAN: OK, well I accept that. I accept that. I accept that. Gentleman, please be seated.
Was it your idea -- that's the appropriate -- was it your idea...
(UNKNOWN): It was my idea. It was my idea to investigate what witnesses know.
WAXMAN: OK.
(UNKNOWN): Just like any other lawyer in the free world does.
WAXMAN: Did you think, Mr. Clemens, it was a good idea to invite her to your home on Sunday after not seeing her for seven years?
CLEMENS: I'm sorry?
WAXMAN: Did you think it was a good idea to invite her to your home after you hadn't seen her for seven years?
CLEMENS: I was told on Friday night to see if you -- you know, we could locate the nanny. Obviously, that's very nice of you. I don't think that she needs any publicity.
But I was told on Friday night that you guys may want to talk to her, and so...
WAXMAN: And you felt you should talk to her first? Well, I don't know if there's anything improper in this.
CLEMENS: Mr. Chairman, I hadn't talked to her in years. And I did everything I could to locate her to -- if you guys had any questions for her, and I did tell her to answer truthfully. I don't -- again, I'm not sure...
WAXMAN: OK. Well, I don't know if there's anything improper in this, but I do know it sure raises an appearance of impropriety. The impression it leaves is terrible. The right way to handle this would have been to give the committee information immediately, to not have your people interview the nanny before we did, and certainly for you not to personally talk to her about the interview, as you did.
One option for you was to have given the committee the nanny's contact information and had no contact with her. Another option could have been to give her a head's up that the committee would be calling her.
WAXMAN: But you chose I think the worst approach. That's my opinion. You invited her to your home; had a specific conversation about whether you were at Mr. Canseco's house. And you did this before you gave the committee her contact information.
Is there anything else you want to add?
(UNKNOWN): Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, this is nothing but innuendo.
Your committee asked on Friday evening for this information. We have done everything to give you that information in a fast and in a thorough manner.
The innuendo is terrible.
And I spoke to your own staff member who's speaking with you now. And your statement is -- and I have the highest respect for the chairman, is calculated to do nothing but to have innuendoes against this man. We have cooperated with you fully...
WAXMAN: Well, I understand your...
(UNKNOWN): ... as your own...
WAXMAN: The gentleman -- as I indicated, the rules do not allow the lawyers to speak, but I did not cut you off.
This action means there's always going to be a question of whether you tried to influence her testimony. And I gather your lawyer thinks...
CLEMENS: Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, I was doing you all a favor, as far as I was concerned. I haven't seen this lady in a long time. She's a sweet lady. And I wanted her -- to get her to you as quick as possible if you had any questions for her.
And, again, I'm hurt by those questions that I would get in the way of finding anything that you guys were looking for. That's -- I'm hurt by that statement.
(UNKNOWN): We asked her to come...
WAXMAN: The gentleman is not going to be recognized.
My time is up.













Why is he wasting his time on this?
February 13, 2008 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's doing it for the publicity.
You should have seen the line out the door of the Longworth Building this morning! It was like the circus came to town!
February 13, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Waxman should have better things on his plate. That said from this exchange Clemons seems to be guilty of witness tampering.
February 13, 2008 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I only caught the end of this exchange live, but seriously..Roger and his lawyers were trying to do a little CYA'ing if you ask me. The Rocket and his legal eagles aren't doing him any favors and I am quite glad Waxman's people found out what they pulled.
Even though I still contend this is a huge waste of taxpayers money, it was a great show. ;p
February 13, 2008 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I used to think Rusty Hardin was the worst lawyer in the world, but now I understand. He's TRYING to get Roger the death penalty.
February 13, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
First, there are no rules governing contacts wit a witness applicable to a Congressional hearing even remotely analogous to those in a court proceeding. And even in a court proceeding, there is nothing at all improper about contacting witnesses. To be sure, a lawyer would be derelict if he did NOT contact any known witness. Does anybody have any evidence that Clemens or anybody else tried to affect her testimony? Or are they merely presumed to have done so. There is no "appearance of impropriety" issue here. Somebody is trying to put it to Clemens, and his lawyers are defending him. Get over it.
Second, Waxman has no business telling these lawyers they have no right to speak. They have a duty to speak up anytime their client's interests are in jeopardy. It's sometimes referred to as the "right to counsel." Remember the old HUAC members berating witnesses for invoking their testimonial privilege with the phrase "typical communist tactic!" These lawyers should have been seated next to their client at the witness table and able to comment if as and when they felt like it. Period.
Third, Clemens looks goofy in a tie.
February 13, 2008 6:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
The New York sports radio dynamic duo, Mike and the Mad Dog -- one a registered Republican, the other a Republican leaner -- were aghast at how partisan and stupid the Republican Committee members were. Clemens could do no wrong to the Republicans. (He is a loyal Bushie, an FOW, which explains it.)
Just as absurdly, they ignored evidence from other sources corroborating McNamee, substituting insults for factfinding, insults that said more about them than him, though he's no choirboy. They showed total ignorance of, or indifference to, the evidence on the record.
Any viewer could see this. A poll on Clemens's credibility went 30 to 4 against. Mad Dog said Chris Shays, his Rep, lost his vote today. They had tons of fun playing back the speechifying. They had special words of praise for Waxman.
Of course if the two watched congressional hearings more often, they'd have seen nothing new in the day's events.
February 13, 2008 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
It`s sad that Congress is wasting time on this tripe and not doing squat about the criminals who have spied on its citizens illegally,tortured illegally,gone to war illegally,and have ripped off the average American, politicized every government agency,and I could go on and on; but what good would it do?
I`ve had it with these guys.I`m going to become a hermit.
February 13, 2008 7:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agree. Waxman has real talent, especially if it's directed. However, his idea of oversight, apparently, is to focus on sports, not Geneva or high crimes. That's not real oversight, but shirking one's duty by skating around the pool of fire, pretending it is an air conditioned sauna.
February 13, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is a total waste of time. No wonder Congress has a 20% approval rating. Waxman is a joke.
February 13, 2008 8:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why are we wasting taxpayer money on this, from something ten years ago. Will we have to wait ten years for this administrations' clowns to be brought to justice?
February 13, 2008 8:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm watching the evening news and I am simply astounded that whether Roger Clemens did or did not use performance enhancing drugs is a) the major story of the day, and b) that the Congress of the United States cares.
What possible difference does it make to the US Congress that Clemens or any other athlete uses drugs? Why is the House spending enormous sums of OUR money investigating such a non-issue? Not only is it totally wasted money, but it represents time and money that could have been used for something much more productive, like health care or Iraq or...
No wonder the approval rating of Congress is even lower than that of President Bush!
February 13, 2008 11:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Today's super jocks use steroids and HGH. Back a few years the drug of choice was amphetamines, used to keep the jocks mentally alert thru the tedium of game after game. Before that, who knows what chemicals they used, but it is almost certain that they did use whatever was available then. Big deal. It is a victimless "crime" if it is a crime at all. And, Congress has absolutely no business wasting time on it.
February 13, 2008 11:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
This hearing was way, way, way down on the list of Congressional wastes of time. There are far bigger and more egregious wastes of time happening just about every day on Capitol Hill.
The first baseball/steroids hearing was, in fact, a significant turning point in the issue. After that hearing, baseball had no choice but to address performance-enhancing drugs -- when it had spent the previous two decades ignoring the problem. (And the use of PEDs by pro athletes does encourage young athletes to use them, sometimes with devastating consequences. That is a legitimate issue.)
The Clemens hearing was less important than the first hearing, but it did help shine a light on some unsavory behavior. Perhaps it will make athletes think twice about self-medicating through an unlicensed groupie -- oh, I guess they call themselves "trainers." And it took one day of committee time. I think Waxman has plenty of other days to investigate Administration malfeasance. The biggest problem there is not the loss of this one day; it's the apparent spinelessness of much of the Democratic leadership.
February 14, 2008 3:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
And this colossal waste of time and taxpayer money is going on because...?
February 14, 2008 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink