Olympia Snowe ought to just switch parties. She has seemed like one of the good guys (gals) for quite some time.

Better late than never? No. She had her chance to shut down torture, but she didn't.

Take Pelosi of the table in 2008
Drown out Feinstein in 2012

A) The previous attempt to explicitly ban the CIA from using waterboarding failed because it was part of a larger bill and the Republicans were able to claim that they were anti-torture but unfortunately they didn't agree with the rest of the bill.

Yet again, we're trying to stick this onto another bill. History will repeat itself. Fools.

Make a stand alone bill. Make the Republicans vote against THAT.

2) Waterboarding is ALREADY illegal. This is a huge waste of time. If a government agency breaks any other law, what is the usual process?

Oh yeah, you go to the DoJ. But oh yeah, the DoJ issued an advance pardon to the CIA, so they can't investigate.

And Conyers is just now threatening to subpoena the people who issued the advance pardon.

And nobody in Congress is talking about impeachment. Not of Bush. Not of Cheney. Not of Condi. Not of Mukasey.

So the torture will just continue. And the torturers will never be held accountable.

We'll just wank, wank, WANK our way to the November election and watch as the combined forces of the Media and Ralph Nader and Democratic In-Fighting hand the election over to John McCain.

Get used to it.

Maybe if enough of you go vote then the Democrats can gain enough seats in the House and Senate to allow for meaningful oversight.

Maybe then we'll stop torturing people and not get into a war with Iran.

Whatever. Doesn't matter. Nobody is talking about what we'll do as a country if there's another 9/11. If they committed war crimes against foreign Muslims after the first 9/11, what do you think they'll do after the second one?

We'll just wank, wank, WANK our way to the November election and watch as the combined forces of the Media and Ralph Nader and Democratic In-Fighting hand the election over to John McCain.

Whatever - what does Nader have to do with it?

mendowood: First, we have the testimony of military professionals that torture is not effective. (I, too, think the utilitarian argument has merit -- but it works both ways.)

Second, I think the definition of torture hinges less on some sliding scale of outrageousness (as in "outrage upon personal dignity") than on a sliding scale of personal dignity. In other words, the danger when we're at war is that the importance of personal dignity in general will be diminished. I don't want my country to stand for diminished personal dignity, whether in war or peace.

Philosophical positions never take a back seat in war. War simply exposes the philosophy that some people have but usually hide, or are perhaps unaware that they even have.

We've learned in recent years that the Bush administration believes in torture. It wasn't 9/11 that changed their minds - it simply gave them an excuse to use what they've always believed in. That they only 'limit themselves' to waterboarding is certainly not because they find other forms of torture repugnant - they use it because that's what they can get away with, so far anyway.

I'm disgusted that my country is now in league with other torturing nations. And I am similarly disgusted at how other Americans can be so utterly blase about it.

psyclone and mendowood: I don't think mendowood, at least, is blase about torture -- s/he has a pretty well thought out position. I just disagree with it!

If the suspected bad guys break under waterboarding, how do we know that what they say is the truth? They'll just say anything to stop the pain or terror. That makes the technique useless. And, all the while, we become known as people who torture. For a country based on ideas, that's an idea that's pretty important!

To hoppycalif2: In the early years of the last century, my grandfather and my great uncle immigrated to the US from eastern Europe. They had 4 brothers who immigrated to France. In the early 30's they corresponded with my grandfather and greatuncle in New York about assassinating Hitler who the saw as a potential danger (I inherited the correspondence when my father passed in 2000). They, as a family decided against taking action because it was "wrong".

As it turned out, those four great uncles of mine and their wives, and their children, and their grandchildren all died in the death camps. Sometimes not taking action against someone you "know" wants to hurt you is "wrong".

When we talk about another "void for vagueness" operational term that "nobody knows what it means" (ENHANCED INTERROGATION)....once again, every commentator is lost in the spin and focuses on waterboarding, stress positions, etc.

WHAT MOST READERS AT TPMMUCKRAKER.COM DON'T KNOW AND WON'T LISTEN TO IS A KEY SEN JUD COMM CONTACT NAMED THOMAS S. BEAN who signed a 47 page US DOJ OIG complaint that brought light to THE USE OF TORTURE ON US CITIZENS because they were "political enemies" who had contacted THE US SEN JUD COMM.

This is all corroborated by Senator CHARLES GRASSLEY, whose finance aid looked into the LEO WANTA TRUST FUND THEFT after Grassley got my ten page memo?

THE TORTURE THAT WAS USED AGAINST ME INCLUDED:

--CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT A FED CRIME OF VIOLENCE;

--CONSPIRACY TO TAMPER WITH A WITNESS who signed a DOJ OIG/FBI OPR Complaint;

--USE OF A DOD DARPA WEAPON CALLED DEW (Directed Energy Weapon) that focuses microwave radiation to induce death, brain strokes, brain tumors, heart attacks, pain, discomfort, sleep deprivation, etc.

--USE OF AN RFID MIND CONTROL VERICHIP illegally inserted in my skull while I was asleep in my own home, after I contacted Grassley, who confronted Mueller who flipped on NsA TSP tothe NY TIMES.

--MIND CONTROL includes subliminally programming the Manchurian Candidate while also disturbing Deep REM sleep to create confusion, lost long term memory, frustration, aggravation, hostiliy, and the eventual emotional outbursts later recorded on pin hole spy cameras, bugging devices, emails, letters, and phone calls (NO WARRANTS for this TICKLING THE WIRE neutralizaion).

THIS TORTURE also included targeting of DR. MARK GORDON (a known associate of mine, brother of a murdered brother named RICH GORDON, who also was coerced into cooperating with Minneapolis FBI who forced him to take polygraph exams focusing on the illegally seized tape recordings of our phone conversations).

HOW DOES A LYING, TREASONOUS, LOWLIFE FAGGOT NAMED ROBERT SWAN MUELLER, III....ignore the attempted murder of an FBI witness named MARK GORDON?

When Minnesota US ATTY THOMAS HEFFLEFINGER FOUND OUT, he made inquiries, and was brought to DOJ HQ to discuss the matter (At DOJ HQ all US Attornys go through an x ray machine to make sure they are not recording the conversation as evidence of ANOTHER CONSPIRACY TO OBSTRUCT JUSTICE).

HEFFLEFINGER RESIGNED IN DISGUST WHEN HE WAS NOT ALLOWED TO PROSECUTE RUMSFIELD'S DOD CIFA GOON SQUAD, who worked with Minneapolis FBI who protected their right wing military pals pursuant to Mueller's bogus punk protocol in which "FBI FAGGOTS HIDE BEHIND SILENT INDIFFERENCE, AND REFUSE TO ENFORCE AND INVESTIGATE OUTRAGEOUS VIOLATIONS OF THE FED CRIM CODE.

This indifference by Minneapolis FBI....was a pattern and practise involving the "lack of criminal focus" on the MURDER OF DASCHLE'S EX CHIEF OF STAFF, RICHARD GORDON, IN CUSTER, SD,....as FBI/Rumsfield's CIFA/NSA/NSA TSP, SD AG...all colluded to OBSTRUCT JUSTICE when they ran an illegal bogus investigation designed to discredit Rich Gordon who was slandered by THE NY TIMES after FBI leaked them info?

JUST HOW STUPID AND WEAK...IS THE MSM, AND WORTHLESS PUNK WHORES AT DNC (Pelosi, Reid, Leahy).