« previous | MUCK HOME | next »
Petraeus: "We're Not after The Holy Grail in Iraq"
Of all the innumerable times that lawmakers asked Gen. David Petraeus over the last two days for some indication of what success in Iraq is, this answer seemed as clear as any of them. At least in this answer, there was no reference to success being "conditions-based" or any mention of "battlefield geometry." Rep. Robert Wexler (D-FL) asked "Please tell us, general, what is winning?"
"Ambassador Crocker and I, for what it's worth, have typically seen ourselves as minimalists. We're not after the Holy Grail in Iraq, we're not after Jeffersonian democracy," Petraeus responded. "We're after conditions that would allow our soldiers to disengage."
For those who've been watching the Iraq debate, this sort of "minimalism" is nothing new. After all, administration officials have been saying since the start that a "Jeffersonian democracy" isn't likely to take root in Iraq (even Paul Bremer said "We're not going to have a Jeffersonian democracy here" in 2003). But with Iraq, there never can be enough minimalism.
Transcript of the full exchange is below.
WEXLER: Please tell us, General, what is winning?PETRAEUS: Well, first of all -- first of all, Congress, let me tell you that what we are fighting for is national interest. It is interest that, as I stated, have to do with Al Qaida, a sworn enemy of the United States and the free world; it has to do with the possible spread of sectarian conflict in Iraq, conflict that had engulfed that country and had it on the bring of civil war; it has to do with region stability of a region that is of critical importance to the global economy; and it has to do with, certainly, the influence of Iran, another, obviously, very important element in that region.
In terms of what it is that we are trying to achieve, I think, simply, it is a country that is at piece with itself and its neighbors. It is a country that can defend itself, that has a government that is reasonably representative and broadly responsive to its citizens, and a country that is involved in, engaged in, again, the global economy.
Ambassador Crocker and I, for what it's worth, have typically seen ourselves as minimalists. We're not after the Holy Grail in Iraq, we're not after Jeffersonian democracy; we're after conditions that would allow our soldiers to disengage, and that is, in fact, what we are doing as we achieve progress, as we have with the surge, and that is what is indeed allowing us to withdraw the surge forces -- again, well over one-quarter of our ground combat power, five of 20 brigade combat teams, plus two Marine battalions and the Marine Expeditionary Unit by the end of July.Ambassador Crocker and I, for what it's worth, have typically seen ourselves as minimalists. We're not after the Holy Grail in Iraq, we're not after Jeffersonian democracy; we're after conditions that would allow our soldiers to disengage, and that is, in fact, what we are doing as we achieve progress, as we have with the surge, and that is what is indeed allowing us to withdraw the surge forces -- again, well over one-quarter of our ground combat power, five of 20 brigade combat teams, plus two Marine battalions and the Marine Expeditionary Unit by the end of July.
Josh
Zachary
from swimming freestyle:
"Perhaps if we look at the problem like grown-ups, not petulant kids who demand the game be played their way or no way...
No one wants a shattered Iraq, full of sectarian militias battling each other, a nonfunctional government, and a bitter, pissed off populace. Instead of stubbornly adhering to a simplistic, "if I just wish hard enough it will happen" Bush strategy (a long term military presence to tamp down violence waiting for the Iraqi government to get it together), why not consider how we help the Iraq government function more effectively? If our current strategy is not yielding the desired results (some end point for U.S. involvement), isn't it smart to change strategy until you find one that works?
Isn't that what grown-ups do?"
http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com
April 9, 2008 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
"No one wants a shattered Iraq, full of sectarian militias battling each other, a nonfunctional government, and a bitter, pissed off populace"
If no one wants all that, then why did we invade Iraq? Anyone could have predicted the current situation would result if we invaded Iraq. Even Darth Cheney knew it. (I don't have the reference, but he spoke out many years ago against invasion)
I knew it! I'm not an intellectual giant, but it wasn't hard to understand that invading a country unprovoked would result in a very fucked up situation. However, I must confess that I did not anticipate the unbelievable stupidity and incompetence of the Bush administration in carrying out the invasion and occupation.
Back to your point. No one wants all that. But it's what exists on the ground. It will continue to exist as long as United States military occupies Iraq. There will still be horrible turmoil, destruction and many, many deaths. The situation has no chance of improving to the point of having any semblance to a peaceful nation until the US leaves.
April 10, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
How to "disengage".
Put down weapons.
Pack up stuff.
Get the hell out ASAP.
I don't want to hear any more B.S. about "winning" and "losing". This isn't a football game.
April 9, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would have been great to see the entire speech that Wexler gave!
April 9, 2008 6:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Petraeus's comment suggests that he knows some religious nutcases in the Bush administration who see the invasion of Iraq as part of an undeclared Christian Crusade, and in that sense some people ARE seeking "the Holy Grail in Iraq".
Google the words "Bush" and "Rapture" if you don't know what I'm talking about.
April 9, 2008 7:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Petraerus to Sunnis and Shiites on political reconciliation:
Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who.
April 9, 2008 7:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also, WTF is up with the creepy "thank Petraeus" ad to the right put together by McConnell. Talk about riding coattails.
April 9, 2008 7:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think I understand a lot better now. We shoved the "surge" forces at Iraq in order to get conditions to be where we could withdraw the "surge" forces. Then, we only have left those forces that were there when we decided to shove the "surge" forces at Iraq. This brilliant strategy, designed by Gen. Petraeus, cost us several hundred American lives, probably ten times that many horribly wounded Americans, and at least tens of billions of dollars. But, thank God, we will soon be in the same situation we were in before we shoved the "surge" forces at Iraq. I hold my head up in pride at the competence of General Petraeus and his CIC.
April 9, 2008 9:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
What is this bullshit about withdrawing 1/4 of our troops? Sounds like the store that offers a 25% off sale after marking things up 25%. There's no real savings (or reduction) here. Why do they let these guys get away with this stuff?
April 9, 2008 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, one more thing. Does anyone find it strange that Petraeus uses Crusades-style symbolism here? I mean, didn't Bush once announce early in the war that it would be a crusade only to have to retract it when someone pointed out how sensitive that term is to some folks in the middle east? So we're back to that kind of rhetoric again?
April 10, 2008 12:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
With all that has been said by Petraeus and Crocker in their last two reports (September '07 & April '08) to lawmakers of the Armed Services and Foreign Affairs committees, it is abundantly clear that W's administration has never seriously considered making plans to begin bringing US troops home from Iraq before 2009. Recognizing that progress in attaining political stability and adequate levels of civil and social services has been abysmal, at best, W would prefer to push the really difficult decisions of how and when to withdraw to the next President.
How very courageous of him!
John "100 Years" McCain's views continue the misguided notion of most Republicans, that keeping our troops there will somehow result in keeping Iraq more secure/more stable -- not to mention keeping that Iraqi oil out of the control of the "terrrr-sts-s." Geez, he's compelled to support those Republican talking points because he has to pander to the Republican base as best he can, plus -- like W, he doesn't have the courage to start bringing troops home and face the possible perception of "losing the war."
Neither of them want to risk being tagged with the possibility of perceived failure -- jeopardizing their legacy. No -- it is far better to be judged as not losing -- at the expense of countless more American lives and billions of our taxpayers' dollars.
Thank God the Democratic presidential candidates understand the complexities and complications of the situation in which we find ourselves, the sound judgment and fortitude to understand and accept that any withdrawal options -- any year, any decade -- will have significant consequences, and some of them may be difficult. They are willing to accept that inevitability and move forward, bringing our troops home, working for security and stability by transitioning to more extensive diplomatic and non-military solutions. They are willing to accept the challenge of making a plan to responsibly withdraw our troops, let Iraq be occupied by Iraqis, and promote peace.
It is absolutely deplorable that W and McCain continue to embrace fear-mongering and an infinite US troop presence in Iraq. This administration has a terrible record of telling the truth or making correct assessments and projections when proclaiming the rationale for our invasion, the financial costs, troops necessary to meet our objectives (now what were they? who knows? how often did they change?), US and Iraqi casualties, levels of oil revenues, definition of success, etc.
Regarding Iraq (and so many other priority issues), this administration has been wrong or inconsistent. Consistently.
Why on earth the voters in this country would ever elect McCain to continue this insanity is beyond comprehension.
April 10, 2008 12:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Assumption: Anytime an administration representative speaks, they are lying.
Data: Gen. Petraeus says that we are not looking for the Holy Grail in Iraq.
Conclusion: We are looking for the Holy Grail in Iraq.
Analysis: The Administration invaded Iraq to obtain the Holy Grail, and the occupation has continued because we can't leave until we find it.
Speculation: The elusive claims of "progress" the administration has repeatedly insisted is being made have actually been coded references to the surmised degree of success of the archaeological team desperately trying to unlock the riddles of an ancient Mesopotamian dig site, the Navel of the Earth, hidden beneath the "Green Zone".
IT ALL MAKES SO MUCH SENSE NOW.
April 10, 2008 3:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Liberals see what they believe.
Conservatives believe what they see.
I see the surge worked, political partries are working together, al-quida is defeated and Iraqi's love America and thankful for our liberation. You people can waller in your negative critisizm of this mission, but the bottom line is we are winning and is was worth the effort. History will prove all this and you'll all be just pissin in your mess kit.
Dwell on this..WE win, you loose.
April 10, 2008 4:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
I see the surge worked, political partries are working together, al-quida is defeated and Iraqi's love America and thankful for our liberation. You people can waller in your negative critisizm of this mission, but the bottom line is we are winning and is was worth the effort. History will prove all this and you'll all be just pissin in your mess kit.
Dear GI Dad,
I'm sorry for the loss of your son's buddies. But what you think you see is a delusion. The only cooperation between political parties now is because of the billions of dollars we are paying the militias and their political surragates not to fight. Al qaeda in Iraq is a group of nut-jobs who have nothing to do with the people who carried out the highjackings on September 11. No one in Iraq likes them.
As for staying in Iraq to honor the deaths of your son's friends... I'm sorry, but there is no winning an occupation. We are not at war in Iraq. We are in the middle of a multi-faction civil war that was fomented by the United States unprovoked invasion. The United States military is occupying Iraq. Every single Iraqi looks at us as the enemy.
There is nothing for us to do but leave. There is nothing for us to do but to apologize. The invasion was so horribly wrong that there is no honorable way out. Staying in Iraq merely postpones the inevitable and continues the carnage.
To continue to think that there is some definition of "winning" in Iraq is to remain deluded.
I hope your son manages to come home safely.
April 10, 2008 3:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Quagmire ... there IS no winning ... only a choice that needs to be made. The only choice we have is how much money we're willing to shovel six-feet-under only to see it come back to bite us one way or another, just like Afghanistan, Columbia, El Salvadore, etc.
New rule ... (with apologies to Bill Maher) ... if we're going to kill ourselves, let's do it quickly so we produce fewer grandchildren who will suffer horrendously for our inexcusable errors. This slow drain of blood and wealth will hurt them much much more than it hurts us. When China calls our war-debt due and creates drought over America to force us into subservience, we'll start to see the agony Bush et al (and the self-centered war mongering citiznes who enabled him) visited upon our progeny.
God bless America? Yeah. God will.
April 10, 2008 5:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let's just waller in critterjism.
April 10, 2008 7:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Mraowr?
April 10, 2008 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
What is this "Thank General Petraeus" bullshit doing on all the lib websites? PLEASE, people, use this URL to give Mitch McConnell a piece of your mind.
http://www.teammitch.com/Petraeus
April 10, 2008 8:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Please tell us, general, what is winning?" We have won nothing in the war. So many soldier has sacrificed in the war which is different from game. We want peace. Please no war again. So many people at the hot bbw dating site -----largeplace.com------- are peace lover. Let's us live in peace please.
April 10, 2008 8:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Of course, the surge is working, the Iraqis love us dearly (especially Moqtada's Mehdi Army), Iraq is a model of safety, prosperity and democracy and...Santa Claus will visit your house on Christmas Eve and bring toys and gifts for all the good kids!
Conservatives believe what they see??????
Exactly what did you "SEE" that made you believe all that BS?
You were probably looking at the wrong region of the world!
Are you sure what you "saw" wasn't some prop in Las Vegas and you thought it was Iraq because of the palm trees!
What brand of Kool Aid have you been drinking, GI dad?
Even FOX News has moved beyond the fairy tale!
April 10, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
We may well be "fighting for national interest." Unfortunately, Iraq's leaders do not share our interest level. They show little interest in taking the steps needed to form a functional nation government.
-AF
Andrew Sullivan Is A Fraud
April 10, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Like I said...you all see what you believe...GLOOM and DOOM...
"there IS no winning","The only choice we have", "... if we're going to kill ourselves, let's do it quickly", "inexcusable errors", "slow drain of blood and wealth", "force us into subservience", "see the agony", "Thank General Petraeus bullshit"...DEPRESSING and you are believing what you want to see. Your negativism has served to embolden this enemy and actually kill our Soldiers.
The Iraqi Government has met 4 of 6 benchmarks to date. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is challenging al Sadar and Iran's influence. The fact is the surge worked, the Government is improving and we will be out of there as Iraq is able to support itself. We cut a swath in the belly of the middle east that is an investment in our future that will pay back our treasury investment 100 fold. Your glass is 1/2 empty, mine is 1/2 full...just your point of view.
You treehuggers cause us to be dependent on middle east oil. We can't drill or process our rich reserves and we can't build Nuclear power to get rid of fossil fuel energy. Energy independence is the key answer to all of this.
You liberals give more of our treasury away to our criminals, deadbeats and illegal aliens to make sure they're comfortable and better educated and better medical than hardworking American's. We have to borrow money from China to pay your way. And this so called recession??? I look around and see a lot of spoiled liberals yaking in their cell phones in their brand new leased cars. This recession is really a correction due to NAFTA...a Clinton/Democratic policy.
So, you go ahead and waller in your muck...YUK! I choose to be positive and move forward.
Here's Muck in your eyes!!!!
April 10, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gidad: You're right. We won (four years ago), so now it's time to leave. Maliki wants us out; and georgejr promised that we'd leave if they asked.
All of this is good news; and it's now time to put our tax dollars to better use - restoring OUR country's infrastructure, health care, schools, etc. (In fact, our Constitution could be restored too, without spending money - there's an idea!)
April 10, 2008 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Go, patronize me. Ya, lets shift that money to pay for all the pork and entitlements we're due. Gotta have that Hippie museum in upstate New York for Hillary. Gotta pay for that illegal alien's education. Gotta pay for a lawyer for that terrorist who want's to murder you liberals for "ideaizing" about same sex marriage. Gotta pay those bonds so I can see my social security.
There's some patronizing muck back at ya, Judy.
April 10, 2008 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gidad - you're not a positive person, you're just angry. You must be a Republican, to prefer your tax money go toward killing and maiming; and supporting big corporations, instead to benefitting actual human beings.
I won't talk to you anymore.
April 10, 2008 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, ya picked up on anger, eh? How observant of you. Freedom isn't Free, Peace isn't Free. Your not entitled, it's earned. Peace and Freedom will only materialize through strength and that’s a human fact true throughout history. Thank God we have Hero's willing to volunteer to face the threat. They re-up time and time again so you can have the right to criticize their sacrifice. I'm not Republican. I prefer my tax money to defend your right to an opinion. I'm a Union employee and nearly retired. My son did two tours of Iraq. We lost his best Friend over there, so I know sacrifice. Yes, I'm angry. Sick and tired of big mouths over here emboldening the true enemy. So stay in your boober corner and don't talk to me. Anybody else wanna take a swing?
April 10, 2008 8:14 PM | Reply | Permalink