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A Bridge Too Far: McCain Falsely Claimed Palin Vetoed Earmarks
Looks like the level of earmark bamboozlement coming from John McCain is even deeper than we'd known.
Speaking to reporters today, McCain defended his running mate, Sarah Palin, for lying about her opposition to the Bridge to Nowhere with the following claim, as reported by the Associated Press:
"The important thing is she's vetoed a half a billion dollars in earmark projects -- far, far in excess of her predecessor and she's given money back to the taxpayers and she's cut their taxes, so I'm happy with her record."
McCain had said a similar thing on ABC's The View Friday morning: "Earmark spending; which she vetoed half a billion dollars worth in the state of Alaska."
The notion that Palin "vetoed earmarks" has become a fully-fledged GOP talking point in recent weeks. Here, for instance, is Republican congressman Jeb Hensarling repeating the claim at a news conference 12 days ago.
But governors don't "veto" federal earmarks. As Palin's own gubernatorial spokesman, Bill McAllister, told TPMmuckraker: "She can choose not to submit the request, but once Congress makes them, they're there."
The provenance of McCain's half a billion figure appears to be related to this claim, which Palin made this morning during a speech in Colorado:
"Nearly half a billion of excessive spending in our state budget, that's what vetoes are for."
It's true, as the Boston Globe reported over the weekend, that as governor, Palin vetoed over $500 million in state legislative spending requests over two fiscal years.
But generic spending requests, which Palin rejected through the use of her line-item veto power as governor, aren't remotely the same thing as earmarks. As McAllister told us: "It's called line-items, generally. [Earmarks],that's not common parlance." And the money that Palin cut didn't come from the federal government, which is the starting point for the whole earmarks debate. So that $500 million figure has nothing to do with earmarks.
In other words, McCain has taken a statistic from one issue, and applied it to defend Palin's record on a different one -- under the assumption that the press won't look closely enough at the details to call him on it.
Ironically, an ad released almost two weeks ago by the RNC makes the necessary distinction between cutting spending through line-item vetoes, and cutting earmarks. It asserts that Palin "vetoed nearly half a billion dollars in wasteful spending and cut earmark requests by hundreds of millions of dollars." That latter claim refers to requests for pork made by the state to its congressional delegation, which did go down under Palin as compared to her predecessor as governor, Republican Frank Murkowski. But note that the half a billion dollar figure clearly refers not to the reduction in earmark requests, but rather to the cuts in spending.
And yesterday, Palin seemed to suggest that she was aware of that same distinction, remaining technically truthful, if misleading, by telling a crowd in Nevada: "We reformed the abuses of earmarks in our state. I vetoed nearly half a billion dollars of wasteful spending in looking at it as an executive responsibility."
But McCain hasn't been as scrupulous, either on The View or in talking to reporters today.
CBS News has already noted McCain's dissembling, after his appearance on The View. Will anyone else?
The McCain campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment.













Obama's great new line:
"If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Alaska to sell you."
Link
September 15, 2008 7:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. No income taxes in Alaska, so how can she save them money from taxes?
2. $0.5 Billion is funding for project put off after years of low oil prices. Most of it was windfall wishlist spending that other 50 states have never seen before. Also Federal money has paid for most small projects. Post BtNowhere they went to get state windfall not Earmarks
3. Taxes were raised on Oil Companies, she did not save taxpayers anything. She raised taxes on the largest tax payers
September 15, 2008 7:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the comprehensive view of this bamboozle runs something like this - as in the example of the "Bridge Earmark" she didn't use it for the bridge itself but kept the monies for "other" projects, including building roads up to the locations where the bridge is to be built (sometime later)....(?) and still is holding some $74 Million of that.
Meanwhile she can Locally Advertise herself as a fiscal "conservative" while vetoing state budget items - and continue grabbing federal earmarks for various things on the Wishlist thereby being a budget hawk on the one side and continuing to feed on the Federal Trough one the other and keeping her favored political hacks happy in the process.
Does that sum it up?
ps I dunno about anyone else but if I lived on an Island that means I want to Live on an Island and I'd rather not have it attached to anything else - isn't that what Islands are for ;)
September 15, 2008 8:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's also worth noting how she goes about making those decisions about what to cut. Says the New York Times:
To paraphrase GWB, it's a lot easier in a dictatorship, as long as you're the dictator.
September 16, 2008 12:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Is her budget director the girl she went to grade school with who loved loved loved quarters?
September 16, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
obama should use this and make a case for mccain being CONFUSED. nobody wants a bumbling president.
September 15, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. While there have certainly been lots of lies from his campaign, I think something like this is more likely a reflection of how little he cares about details. Not exactly reassuring for a guy who claims he's going to change the way things are done.
September 15, 2008 8:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
nobody wants a bumbling president.
Not true. PNAC, Freidmanite free marketeers and Dick Cheney WANT a bumbling president that they can steer from behind the scenes with impunity. They need an idiot who will go along with anything they do, i.e.McCain/Palin.
September 15, 2008 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
"obama should use this and make a case for mccain being CONFUSED. nobody wants a bumbling president."
Yes he should. It's just another lie that joins a very long list.
I didn't spot this rather obvious (in retrospect) lie. Probably most others were taken in, too.
Earmarks come from Washington not from Alaska. Only the POTUS can veto them.
September 15, 2008 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm guessing this is all strategy, and in a few days or a week we'll see McPain trotting out a line that his opponents are so elitist that they have to impose their own truth on the rest of us. Mark my words, this is a trail that leads to the logic of The Gut.
September 15, 2008 7:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um, Alaskans don't pay state income tax.
So the 'resource rebate' she gave of $1200 to each man/woman/child that qualified was actually paid out by oil tax revenue, and arguably paid for by consumers of gasoline from every state.
I also want to call CNN on their bullshit bio piece on her. They claimed her red-budget-pen was responsible for the budget surplus. Not so. It was due solely to the near doubling (then tripling and quadrupling) of oil prices.
September 15, 2008 7:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oops! Sorry resident, I think we covered similar ground here.
September 15, 2008 7:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is it just me or does this seem pretty much like a non story? The average joe is never going to get the distinction. Let's move on to the next set of lies...
September 15, 2008 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes it is a distinction regular joe will realize.
It has to be said properly...but let's review. Johnny mcPOW INTERRUPTED the question because he did not want those words to come out of the reporters mouth. So he beat them to the punch with his own distortion, and it worked. He successfully said what he wanted to say without the truth falling from the reporter's lips first.
"The Important Thing"
the reporter should have countered with....no Mr mcPOW, the important thing is you lied about this, she lied about this, your campaign continues to lie about this, then morph your lies and efforts to try to weasel out of your previous lying. Cutting me off so you can trumpet your latest dishonest version is very much The Importan Thing here. No, The Important Thing is not what new untrue version you would like to foist on the american people...the important thing is that you can't seem to tell the truth. Everyone slips up now and then, you and your team seem to have broken some world records on lying and dissembling just on this topic alone. The list of other topics is long. Don't the american people deserve to know there president is not a serial liar who is trying harder to snow them, than he is trying to help them?
September 15, 2008 8:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
It can be an even bigger deal if Obama spells out the distinction in the debates. Hopefully he will.
September 15, 2008 10:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's a pretty big distinction because the McCain's camp's sole talking point on Palin is that she is a 'reformer', due to her 'veto pen' and 'no thanks' replies to federal funds. It's bullshit is what it is.
September 15, 2008 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Besides, hasn't it been shown that she vetoed many things in the state budget that later had to be reinstated? If that is true, then that point needs to be made - and strongly!
September 15, 2008 8:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is where I get confused.
I think there was a back n forth between her and the legislature - she may be taking credit for some things (and not others) that may be attributable to the legislature and/or her, my guess is whichever way the wind is blowing determines how she'll take credit.
September 15, 2008 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Palin didn't really have much choice about cutting back on earmarks. By the time she took over as governor, Ted Stevens and Don Young were already getting tons of flak about their excessive earmark requests and it was becoming politically impossible for Alaska to sustain the sky-high levels it had been getting when Murkowski was governor. The credit for the drop in Alaska's earmark requests certainly shouldn't go to Sarah Palin; it should probably go to various senators and congressmen, and even some journalists and citizens (and FBI investigators?) who finally blew the whistle on Stevens and Young.
September 15, 2008 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain, Palin, this InBev's for you!
September 15, 2008 8:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. Liberal Democrats and Moderate Republicans overcame now Jailed Republicans and soon to be like Ben Stevens and Ted Stevens to raise taxes on Big Oil
It was gross (Dem's honest tax) vs. ( Republican's Corrupt FBI was listening) 20/20 net tax. They met in the middle!
This raised Alaska's revenue w/ Iraq War premium on price per barrel by $11 Billion
SARAH walked into this huge revenue WITHOUT putting in the political fight. It was already fought ! No Gov in any state has such a cozy ride into office hence 80% approval. She did nothing. Lower 48 Gasoline consumers fueled her rise while bitching about $4.00 gasoline
MCcain saw 80% and said "wow"-no research needed. The voters have spoken!
September 15, 2008 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is a lot of info here, but also a lot that is missing.
Palin may have rejected spending requests by her line item vetoes and STILL spent more than the previous governor. So how do her earmarks (asked for and received) compare with the previous governor and how does her spending compare? Vetoing the most spending can be a misleading statistic.
For the record, has Sarah Palin EVER sent any earmark money BACK to federal government? When I say "Thanks, but no thanks," I do not keep what was offered. But it seems as if Sarah Palin does. She just doesn't spend it on what Congress intended.
September 15, 2008 8:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, but no thanks would imply she's sent money back to 300 million people all over the country!
My question: Show me the money! Show me the "no thanks" check!
September 15, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Even though she reiterated the "Thanks, but no thanks." line yet AGAIN on the campaign trail today; I think she should be able to change her line to "Thanks millions!"
September 15, 2008 10:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very important to clarify to voters that these two liars are not going to be able to generate profits for the US Treasury. Indeed a case could be made by the Obama campaign that cash payments to Alaskans were effectively taken from us taxpayers! Had Alaska used its oil money for their own projects, we in the rest of the country could have saved $$$.
I think they need to do some kind of ad, showing a person like you or I sending money to the govt. And the govt sending that same money to Alaska. And SP sending that very same money to people just like us!
That's what an earmark is! But Alaska's earmarks under SP went from us to her voters! An effective payment for voting!
Ok. I realize some of this is a stretch. But, boy, why should I pay taxes so Alaskans can each get $3000+ dollars this year???
September 15, 2008 8:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. That's the ad someone should be running. "Sarah Palin: That money she gave to Alaskans, that she's so proud of . . . it's yours. And she's not giving it back."
I also think there's a line in there about John McCain's promise to make the people who waste your money famous, but it's not coming to me.
September 15, 2008 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ooooh! I like that line!
September 15, 2008 8:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
hey therap -- i turned to my dad 2 weeks ago & made the exact same point. in so many words, i said we bankrolled sarah palin's popularity contest:
1) we sent our tax dollars to washington.
2) alaska got a nice per capita share of it in federal earmarks.
3) she raised taxes on the oil companies, and spent some of it on state initiatives.
4) she gave big chunks of the oil $$ to her constituents and, presumably, herself since she was/is an alaskan citizen
5) and voila -- they love their miss congeniusality.
September 15, 2008 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's sort of interesting that the campaign is having Palin make the less false claims and McCain make the more obviously false claims.
All of these false claims again remind of the lies that were seeded into the debate over going into Iraq.
Bottom Line: McCain and his handlers have fully bought into Karl Rove's arrogant and duplicitous philosophy that, "We're an empire now and we create our own reality..."
September 15, 2008 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Some of the "wasteful spending" that she vetoed was for programs like convenent house and denali kid care, programs that help low income mothers and abused and runaway kids. She's also cut a lot of funding for school projects. Overall the operating budget for the state has swelled.
September 15, 2008 8:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Josh Marshall needs to correct his lead on TPM home page.
He wrote "half a million" instead of half a billion.
Isn't it about time that Josh allowed comments on his threads, instead of people having to jump through hoops to get word to him?
"Big Game Fib Hunting
Down in the underbrush beneath Sarah Palin's forest of lies there's been this line that even if she was a big time earmarker that she still vetoed half a million worth of earmarks as governor.
Well, not exactly.
--Josh Marshall"
September 15, 2008 8:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
so... she eliminated state-funded projects because she got so much loot from the federal gov't (read: taxpayers in the lower 48)??
September 15, 2008 8:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah... there's no logic there, is there?
September 15, 2008 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Palin boasts aboput how much more fiscally responsible she is as compared to her predecessor, a corrupt and nepotistic Republican. So maybe she's not the worst Republican governor Alaska has ever had. But how does she compare to governors before Murkowski, such as Democrat Tony Knowles?
September 15, 2008 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, is it million or billion. This article sashays between both figures. Editor, stat!!
September 15, 2008 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Republicans measure campaigns in news cycles, as in "there are X cycles left before the polls close". Every cycle that's devoted to Palin, her lack of qualifications, her lies, whatever, is one less cycle devoted to a comparison of policies and positions on the issues, which the Republicans know they can't win. Too many Americans find the McCain narrative too compelling to be displaced by the current re-write. We need to move beyond the "truthiness" arguments and get to the policy arguments, or we lose.
September 15, 2008 9:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just a thought about the decrease in earmarks during Palins tenure and the previous governor;hasn't Senator Stevens been under investigation and the reductions have more to do with that than any difference between the 2 governors.
September 15, 2008 10:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama mocks McCain promise to bring change
"Can you afford to take a chance on someone who's voted against the minimum wage 19 times," Obama asked a crowd of thousands under a blazing sun at a rally in western Colorado at the start of a swing through contested Western states. "When it was $4, he was against it, when it was $5 he was against it, when it was $6 he was against it."
This needs to go to Ohio and PA say it like it is!
September 15, 2008 10:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
A couple of points. First, among that half a billion dollars of line item vetos that Palin made included slashing the budget for Covenant House, a shelter for unmarried teenage mothers, by over a million dollars. Of course that was before she knew any unwed pregnant teens, so maybe she will restore full funding to Covenant House.
Another issue is what is going to happen to the Alaska state budget now that oil prices are in free fall. Over 90% of the state's revenues come from the oil companies and the price of oil has recently slipped about 30% from where it was when the budget was approved. I sure hope that the popular governor remembered to take the possibility of significantly lower oil prices into account when she made up her budget.
September 15, 2008 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
One thing I've been noticing: an awful lot of these lies are related to McCain's effort to sell Palin's record as a reformer. She killed the bridge to nowhere; she didn't request any earmarks; well, she vetoed half a billion of 'em, etc.
I think this is one of the ways the Palin pick has hurt them. Since Alaska is swimming in earmarks, it's really hard to sell any Alaska pol as a McCain-style maverick. To do it, they've had to shift into hyper-mendacity mode.
September 15, 2008 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Having not had to explain themselves for so long - I guess they're just a little rusty.
September 15, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think we can blame this on McCain bumbling. Carly Fiorino used the same line, about Palin vetoing half a billion in earmarks, in the Sunday interview on ABC as seen here:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/217016.php
September 15, 2008 10:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
And of course she cut earmark requests. Congress is in Dem hands now and Stevens and Young will be out of office soon and on their way to prison. Why waste the paper for requests that will go nowhere?
September 15, 2008 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Has anyone dug very deeply into this woman's past to see if she has a history of habitual lying? Did she lie throughout her youth to get what she wanted, trashing those around her if she didn't? I'm suspicious she did. I'm suspicious there are people in Wasilla with some very good stories to tell who won't tell them because they fear this liar will be back amongst them soon taking spiteful revenge.
Perhaps someone needs to set up a whistleblowers hotline so these people don't have to fear the wrath of the Palin clan upon their return. I bet that husband has quite a temper that's been used against more than one hapless Wasilla townfolk. They make quite a team. Not exactly what I'd call good Christians.
September 15, 2008 10:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just to add:
I think a lot of Republican legislators felt huge pressure (from Palin's anti-corruption rhetoric) to vote to increase the tax rate despite having voted against it in the earlier session. She made it pretty clear that a vote against the tax rate increase would tarnish certain legislators record/reputation.
This is why they hate her, mark my words she'll run a campaign against them (using Wasilla H.S. grads) claiming they are 'tax and spend Republicans'.
She effectively lumped ALL legislators as guilty because a few had tainted the vote - she had called the special session to re-debate and re-vote the oil tax rate.
She has the nastiest way of using (uninformed) public sentiment against her enemies, be they Democrat or Republican. But notice how most of the people that say they 'like' her are Democrat? This is because she bribed them with their Christmas wish list of spending this past year - leaving Republican represented districts high and dry.
She is amazingly manipulative.
Anyone remember Weird Science, the movie? I picture Karl Rove and John McCain getting together to create their 'dream woman' - only she'll have her own agenda, and I'll bet anyone $100 that she'll throw McCain overboard and ride the wave to the next presidential election.
September 15, 2008 11:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really think Palin's new line should be
Please...Well thanks anyway.
September 15, 2008 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
'And yesterday, Palin seemed to suggest that she was aware of that same distinction, remaining technically truthful, if misleading, by telling a crowd in Nevada: "We reformed the abuses of earmarks in our state. I vetoed nearly half a billion dollars of wasteful spending in looking at it as an executive responsibility."'
No, no, no, no! This is not "technically truthful". It is a lie: an untrue statement made with intent to deceive.
Just because two statements are true individually doesn't mean that they're true when placed together. We don't speak in unconnected sentences. Sentences relate to one another and affect each other's meaning, especially when they're this close together.
Consider these two statements: "I'd like you to meet my brother. This is Mark." Am I telling you that this person Mark is my brother? Certainly. The two statements must be taken together. In Palin's statement, she is clearly equating "wasteful spending" with "earmarks".
September 15, 2008 11:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Someone (ie: not me) needs to check on the earmark requests made by the Democratic Governor prior to Murkowski. They may well be less than those requested by Palin herself....
September 15, 2008 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reminds me of that Holocaust survivor who was featured on a documentary recently "Language does not Lie"
http://www.sundancechannel.com/films/500062969
During the Nazi era, Victor Klemperer, a German of Jewish heritage, chronicled in his private diary the German government’s subversion of language as a means of thought control. Yet, Klemperer importantly noted, careful reading of totalitarian language always reveals the ideology hidden within the lie. Stan Neumann’s documentary considers the importance of Klemperer’s observation and the role of the witness in such situations, and reflects on how we must vigilantly observe how those in power manipulate language.
September 15, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
upon further thought...
I think what McCain/Palin are hiding within their doublespeak is a disinterest in economics or federal budgets as a whole.
It's not important to them, therefore they distort and play games with the language used to discuss them, (i.e. fundamentals=working class Americans).
The careful and deliberate language is reserved for the Iraq War and McCain's POW service. They don't play games with meaning on either of those topics - they still refuse to define 'winning' or 'victory' and even now 'honor'.
I'm beginning to think that the majority of voters (as demonstrated by Bush's reelection) like the lies, I suspect these are the same people that think pro-wrestling is real.
I think they see it as a sport, detached from their everyday lives - the lying and smearing is a distraction from reality.
It's the only way I can explain mega-churches, mcmansions and luxury cars on leases they can't afford. They are utterly detached from reality, because reality is too hard on their delicate psyches.
September 15, 2008 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
If I were a member of the so-called MSM I'd be offended that the McCain campaign is so willing to lie that it must be constantly betting that I am either:
1) too stupid to figure it out
or
2) too lazy to do my own investigation
That's horribly offensive. If, by chance, I were to do some research and the walls of the corporate media were put up to stop me from doing my job, well, I hope that I'd quit.
September 15, 2008 11:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain/Palin: The bridge to nowhere.
September 16, 2008 12:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Call it artificial intelligence.
September 16, 2008 1:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
And the American people said "Thanks, but no thanks" to that team of liars.
September 16, 2008 1:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Someone should call Sarah Palin out for overtly playing the gender card.
Why is no one doing this?
She is saying in campaign speeches about "shattering the hardest glass ceiling of all."
She is OVERTLY playing the GENDER CARD.
What if Obama goes out and says that this is a wonderful time for black people?
How would that play in the media? Yet, the media is letting her get away with this obnoxious statements.
September 16, 2008 1:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm fiscally conservative. In my speeches. So, I left Wasilla with $20M in debt. They'll pay it off with tourism revenue when I'm President. Oops. I mean VP. John is healthy. Really healthy.
September 16, 2008 2:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why doesn’t Palin release her tax returns? Why won’t Palin give a press conference?
What is she hiding?
September 16, 2008 2:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
We're all referencing how much in earmarks she actually got for Alaska during her short term, but is there any way to see how much she actually requested? There could be quite a difference....
September 16, 2008 3:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Someone needs to dig into the line items Palin vetoed. I bet lots of them would reflect her socially conservative, borderline nutcase views on social issues and their solutions.
We know for a fact she vetoed funding shelters for teenager mothers.
We also heard rumors that she vetoed funding special education for disabled kids. Maybe this is one of those that got re-instated as people screamed and complained too much after she vetoed it. But it is still true that she vetoed it in the first place.
And here is the kicker.
She calls these "wasteful spendings"?
I think a lot of independents would be turned off.
September 16, 2008 4:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ya all are throwing too farging polysyllabic words at this. Half o' 'Mericans have I.Q.s under 108 on the Binet scale . . .
The KISS (Keep it simple, stupid) principle demands that we sound bite this:
If challenged then you do the fact dump thus bamboozling with truth.
September 16, 2008 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously, as Steven Colbert defined it:
"Truthiness"
is a real thing.
September 16, 2008 8:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Homie - its been my experience that island dwellers do not want the bridges connecting their island to anything; until someone on the mainland realizes that investors would really, really, like to live on a connected island, and well, then the mainland guy buys up all the land he/she/it can, in order to make a killing on selling the now (or in the future if all goes as planned) connected island land to non-island people.
September 16, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
The islanders never wanted the bridge because they are not many of them. The mainlanders wanted it because they put their airport over there.
The first lie is "I told Congress thanks, but no thanks." She wasn't Governor when Congress deleted the earmark for the bridge.
September 16, 2008 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree 100%. I just blogged on this yesterday at www.reflectivepundit.com. Great to see someone else can actually analyze these types of issues.
September 16, 2008 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
To many McCain and Palin can do no wrong. In a country founded over 200 years ago black Americans were only afforded the right to vote when Obama was 4 years old (1965). That is paramount in understanding what this campaign is faced with and why the right and others are "in love" with the Mccain/Palin ticket or at least what it represents.
September 16, 2008 4:12 PM | Reply | Permalink