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Obama: Torture Prosecutions For Bushies Is A Question For AG
President Obama is leaving the door open for prosecutions of Bush DOJ officials who provided the legal rationale to support torture policies.
In comments to reporters this morning, Obama said he didn't support prosecuting CIA officers who were carrying out the policy. But:
With respect to those who formulated those opinions, I would say that that it is going to be more of a [question] for the Attorney General, within the parameters of various laws. And I do not want to prejudge that.
Obama reiterated that as a general matter, he wants to look forward. But this goes further than anything he's yet said in terms of suggesting there's a real possibility that we could see investigations.
Here's AP's quick writeup of Obama's comments...
Late Update: From the White House's official transcript, here's a bit more of what Obama said (in a nutshell -- if an investigation is going to be done, he'd prefer a bipartisan panel to a congressional committee):
And so if and when there needs to be a further accounting of what took place during this period, I think for Congress to examine ways that it can be done in a bipartisan fashion, outside of the typical hearing process that can sometimes break down and break it entirely along party lines, to the extent that there are independent participants who are above reproach and have credibility, that would probably be a more sensible approach to take.I'm not suggesting that that should be done, but I'm saying, if you've got a choice, I think it's very important for the American people to feel as if this is not being dealt with to provide one side or another political advantage but rather is being done in order to learn some lessons so that we move forward in an effective way.
Josh
Zachary
It seems that the tide may be turning.
April 21, 2009 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not. Not turning at all.
Obama is Holder's boss, to put it directly. If he wanted to do more, he could.
Now, might he let himself be "swayed" by progressive pressure?
No. Red herring.
Did that "progressive pressure" sway him back out of his FISA/telco immunity flip-flop last summer?
No. I rest my case.
Will you all stop being delusional?
April 21, 2009 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Save the insults.
It MAY be turning, then again it may not.
You must admit though, that the message has changed somewhat. It may be part of a plan, Obama has access to a lot more information than we do. Very difficult to say, we can only talk about what we know, which is what is in the public arena.
April 21, 2009 6:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, it's not that simple, at all. You're acting at though this is a firing squad, where Obama gives an order and outcomes are certain.
In reality it's an outstanding question as to whether it's even feasible to prosecute. That depends on what evidence can be gathered and what legal precedents may apply.
So yes, actually it will take a lot of effort from the AG's office to collect declassified evidence and then render an opinion as policy recommendation to Obama.
April 21, 2009 9:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's my analysis, for what it is worth - - since corporations are too big to fail and I am too small to matter. Why would Obama set himself up for a beating in the national and international polls over his support for letting those who tortured, and those who wrote the legal torture memos in the DOJ, go scott free? Before I answer, let me say that Obama has already paid a high price. His favorabiity rating in the U.S. polls has fallen 12 points, while the same polls in the EU show a drop of 19 points. The answer? I think Obama made a deal with Republican leaders back in February 2006 to keep Bush and members of his administration safe from prosecution. According to my sources, Obama thinks Bush had paralegal powers due to the war on terror, the same powers that other presidents exercised in times of war: namely, Washington, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR and Truman. However, Obama failed to take into account the blowback from his stated preference and then his turnaround in the press today. Americans have lost a lot of faith in the man who was supposed to change Washington. No wonder, in the past two weeks he has become the poster boy for duplicitous Washington insiders.
He who fails to enforce the law is just as guilty as he who breaks the law. I suggest that the president announce that his feelings on matter do not carry the force of law and he regrets premepting the roles of the U.S. Congress and the Department of Justice. If he does not, his reelection chances are in danger. The polls in swing states he carried in 2008 show he has lost ground big time. In none of these states is his approval rating above 48 percent.
April 21, 2009 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh what? Obama's favorability has fallen because he is pursuing a VERY ambitious agenda. This is going to be a very activist government. Some people may not agree with his decisions, while some might still. The point is that he's going to be doing a lot of things. I don't think his favorability has fallen purely because of lack of prosecution. To be honest, the public isn't quite at that level yet.
April 21, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Doc. You can't make such statements on TPM without links to your "facts" and without citing your "sources".
And I don't know when some of you will get it. This torture issue is not on the American peoples radar - the economy is. Until this starts to affect their wallet, until it hits home like the AIG scandal, they do not care. Only the pundits, pols and political junkies care. My proof? When I turn off the computer and talk to my friends, family and acquaintances - they have no idea what I'm talking about.
April 21, 2009 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't agree Viva. I've got a step brother in Iraq. If he or any other American is captured and tortured, I don't want the captors to say, "America tortures so we can too." America is supposed to be BETTER than that. When we torture we lose moral authority. Plenty of people care about this issue.
April 21, 2009 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hi. I'm unemployed at the moment, with friends who've also taken severe hits due to the economy.
Torture and the rule of law are very much on our minds. The rule of law should be on the mind of everyone who's hoping the government can get the economy moving again:
If the government cannot be trusted to obey the law, then any economic stimulus measures cannot be trusted, because it is only the law that determines how those moneys will be put to use. If the executive feels free to violate those laws at will, then the legislature's efforts to assemble useful packages of spending become moot, and all faith in the government's economic strength is rendered worthless.
Faith in the government's economic efficacy is the only thing upon which our currency's value is based. So if that faith is rendered worthless, so too is the dollar.
TLDR; If the government can't be trusted to abide by the rule of law, the dollar is worthless, and there is no hope for any meaningful and lasting economic recovery.
April 21, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
If your sources are correct about what Obama thinks then Obama is far worse, far more naive, and far far less of a moral human being than I ever imagined. I hope you're wrong because if you're not then our current President is a political and moral midget.
April 21, 2009 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Under no circumstance do "paralegal powers" include torture...(under no circumstances..period).....
April 21, 2009 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sadly, these comments appear untrue and/or seemingly the same 'Pack of Lies'!!.
State secrets and as testified by US AG Holder numerous times (including ninth US Circuit Court of Appeals) as being FULLY VETTED and IDENTICAL to the former Bush Administration.
Where is the US Constitutional Bill of Rights Leadership for and within our 'We the People' Democracy and within our Declaration of Independence 'Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for All'.
Where is the Presidential Candidate Obama Promise and Campaign of hope for the 'Change We Can Believe In' and his WRITTEN promise for the 'FEDERAL EMPLOYEE WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTION RESTORATION ENHANCEMENT ACT'?
Where is the Leadership for the 'Change We Can Believe In' and not the Cheerleader for the continued intolerable Corrupt Policies, Practices and Procedures of the previous Administration(s) as applicable?
April 21, 2009 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
"If and when there needs to be a further accounting" seems to me to be leaving plenty of wiggle room...and talking about an independent bipartisan group to investigate seems very smart. A congressional investigative group would soon fall along strictly party/partisan lines and would leave the Limbaugh/Hannity/Beck/O'Reilly crowd with more to chew on than if it were a group of independent, credible non-partisan people looking into it. (I'm thinking how the 9/11 Commission and the Iraq Study Group got less flack from the right-wing talking heads). Obama has plenty on his plate, as does Congress, trying to get an agenda through. An independent group would give both Obama and congress some cover, while still getting the facts out, and taking the investigations where the facts lead it to. Indeed, the tide may be turning!
April 21, 2009 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has said other things before, and been lying. We need to keep the pressure up.
He said he would re-negotiate NAFTA when he was in my homestate of Michigan.
He promised he would fillibuster any law with telecom immunity.
Both times, he was placating people, until he could stab them in the back, and then give a nice twist of the blade.
We need to keep the pressure up. Since when does the president decide who the fuck to prosecute? He can give pardons out, but can he really intervene on a case by case basis, and decide to not have the law apply to individuals? I don't know where this assumption of power is coming from, but it disgusts me to see one politician try to save politically connected people from facing the same justice system that imprisons more people than any other.
By making a blanket decision to "move foward" Obama is making a political calculation. There is no legal basis not to prosecute, the law breaking is in plain sight and has been for years now. The reason the US Attorney story was a scandal was because Bush was illegaly politicizing the DOJ. Obama would be doing an identical thing here, by making a political decision to not prosecute - politicizing the DOJ. Justice needs to be wearing that blindfold.
Horrific War Crimes were commited in this country, by the most powerful people. They are worse than the common criminal, because they abused the public trust that is the foundation of our system of government working properly.
Congress needs to appoint a special prosecutor, and the criminals on both sides of he aisle, in the contractors, the spooks, everybody who is guilty needs to face the music. Torture is not OK, and everybody knows that. All of these people, following orders or not knew they were doing something illegal, immoral, and abhorrent.
I never trot out the Nazi/Hitler analogy, I don't think it is really ever appropriate. The scale of what happened was much greater, my family tree got pruned up by the Good Germans. Serious crimes against humanity also happened in the last administration. They were slicing penises with razor blades, in your and my names. I can't think of anything much worse than that, but the torturers in our country did that and more. They are evil, and better yet - criminals, who clearly commited war crimes.
I have not compared anybody/thing to the Nazis, I brought that up to say that if this type of program can go on with no consequences then we are moving incrementally towards an atrocity. The dehuminization of our enemies, and the prison camps where they are treated inhumanely should be enough to sound warning bells like crazy in your head. Call me a purity troll, but that is how I am hardwired.
Growing up, in Hebrew school we learned about what happened, and we would say "NEVER AGAIN"
Prosecutions must happen for this to NEVER AGAIN come close to happening in my country. Not in my name.
I have a hard time finding words for how I feel about having this torture program carried out in my name, by my country. It is an exponential product of disgusted, mortified, disraught, apoplectic, humiliated, betrayed, and similar type of feelings.
All of these people (think principals meeting: FBI, CIA, Pentagon, DOJ, State Dept, WH) knew about the Geneva Conventions, they had the SERE training, or they knew about it. There are established cases in this country where we gave the death penalty for doing the exact same things.
These people all knew what they were doing, and they said fuck it!
Fuck Them! Prosecute!
The idea of innocent until proven guilty has been turned on its head. We abduct people, punish them (torture), and do so before a trial even happens. Prisoners who have not been proven guilty of anything need to be treated with dignity, or else Justice is a meaningless word.
April 21, 2009 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post, Captain Obvious. I submit you be promoted to Major Obvious.
April 21, 2009 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just because the scale is different doesn't mean that an analogy with the Nazi's is inappropriate. I dont' hear anyone saying that what was done reached the level of Nazi atrocities. But what I think is true and valid and necessary to point out to people is that all of the methods described in the now infamous torture memos are methods used by the Nazi's, by the Imperial Japanese forces and by both the secret police and the military of the USSR. People need to understand the slippery slope we are on and where it leads.
April 21, 2009 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nazi analagies, even slippery slope arguemnts, are WAY off base here.
A better analogy is the famed Milgram experiment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
It shows ordinary "good" people can be convinced, methodically, by authorities that bad things are good. In the study 65% were willing to torture when it wasn't presented as "torture" but as a "scientific experiment." Only 35% refused. None attempted to intervene of challenge the program.
And that was in the early 60's, 15 years after Nuremberg.
That's the reality of human nature. Authority is given great weight. It's unavoidable due to specialization in a complex society. In the vast majority of cases it's good people following generally good authorities.
The way to prevent atrocities is not to punish ordinary people who just did as most people would, but to build better social systems to prevent bad orders and abuses of power from being given in the first place.
The Obama Admin is absolutely correct to go after the Bush lawyers who knew better.
April 21, 2009 9:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm beginning to think that Obama is living in some sort of Presidential Fantasy Land.
What Republican would get involved in any way shape or form in an investigation or hearing of Bush administration abuse of power?
How can he continue to talk about wanting/needing bipartisanship when Republicans all around him make it clear, every time they open their mouths, that they harbor only the utmost disrespect for him and Democrats.
It's really beginning to bother me. There's a "sensible approach" to upholding the law? Someone please explain that to me.
April 21, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who said they have to be current members of Congress? There's a lot of former Bush/Reagan officials who would fit in this category and have really despised what the Bush administration did in regards to Torture. I think they would fit very well within that panel.
April 21, 2009 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you're right. He is living in fantasyland and always was there on the bipartisanship bullshit. It's naivete off the scale!
April 21, 2009 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama says bi-partisanship so when the Republicans walk out like babies and cry all the way home, he can say "They were invited to participate. They chose to leave."
April 21, 2009 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Correct.
Too bad many here don't get it.
Obama offers for the GOP to get involved, they turn him down, they look bad, and he gets to say "I tried but the GOP just wants to say no".
Not only do we get credit for trying to be more bipartisan, but the GOP look petty, AND don't have much input.
April 21, 2009 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. It really is pathetic some people don't get that.
Obama gives them the chance to be bipartisan. He takes the high road knowing it gives him greater power.
If Republicans choose to be obstructionist it only backfires on them all the more. He did the exact same thing during his campaign to both Democratic rivals and McCain.
Yet, some people still don't get it. It's not much different from Republican hawks who think everything has to be done with military power and can't understand soft power. Some people just don't understand politics.
April 21, 2009 9:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
King Obama the First announced today that whether the lawyers and policymakers who fashioned and authorized the US torture program during the reign of King George the Second was a decision to be made by the Attorney General and not by His Imperial Majesty. Today's statement was made in contrast with his position that it was his decision and that he played the decisive role in choosing to exempt those who did the actual torture from answering for their crimes. His Royal Highness has determined that in the case of the higher ups, the rule of law may be allowed to play a role in the decision making process if he determines that any wrongdoing might have occured.
As is customary, the royal stenography corps dutifully and faithfully reported the King's pronouncement without so much as asking a signle question of him regarding how he imagined that he had the absolute power to pick and choose which laws of the land would be followed and which would not.
April 21, 2009 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
How can I say this, oleeb? We all at times get carried away by our perceptions of things. IMVHO, you're riled up today. How about admitting you're angry instead of just making assertions that sound, to me, a tad exaggerated? Maybe you need to take a break, take some deep breaths, read some psalms, gather your compassion. Just some friendly advice.
April 21, 2009 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've lost my respect for Obama at this point. He is acting more like a monarch than a President and he needs to cut it out. He is smart, but he aint' as smart as he seems to think he is. He also needs to stop lying which is what he's doing on the torture business as well as the idiotic bailout of the crooks on Wall Street, not to mention his faux withdrawal from Iraq.
April 21, 2009 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is your view, not a fact:
So, you could say: I think... or In my view... Or I'm angry when I see.... and then you need to describe the behavior.
I personally have not viewed him as behaving like a king - whatever that means. But oleeb, I care about you...
April 21, 2009 6:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you. You're right. I have assumed people would know what I'm referring to but perhaps not. And yes, it is my view. Unfortunately, I'm usually right about these things. It may not be apparent now, but it will become so. It is sad but true that there's almost no time you can think the worst of a politician and he/she proves you wrong. I have developed this view over decades of working with and for them. Few of them are all that different than the others. Obama is slightly different but more similar to the typical politician than he is different from them.
When he presumes to ignore the law he is acting like a monarch. When he picks and chooses when the law will be followed and when it will not, as a matter of political consideration and convenience, then he is acting more like a king than a president. That is exactly what is going on with this torture episode. He has made an amoral political calculation for his own political benefit instead of doing the right and far more difficult thing. He is couching it in that oft used and always insincere political language about moving forward as though his personal preferences are and/or should be the decisive factor. The law and the law alone should be the ruling principle here. We have the law instead of a King. He is there to do a job, but he is not the sovereign power. The people are sovereign here.
April 21, 2009 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
President Obama is a "plan your work, work your plan" kind of guy. He is a politician and must include the realities of politics into his strategies and tactics. That is not to say that he ignores his values and betrays campaign promises. Pres. Obama takes the long view. He has always said that no one is above the law. Yet Pres. Obama must achieve results within the constraints of a closely divided Congress and also among the divisions within our country. I believe that Pres. Obama intended from the beginning to leave this in his Attorney General's pervue. I believe that having the right person handle the Bush/Cheney legal legacy is one of the primary reasons he wanted Eric Holder as his Attorney General. My personal belief is based on personal observation and speculation, the same as much of the opinions expressed here. Remember that President Obama is a canny, careful and calculated politician. He is walking the razor's edge, allowing public opinion to mature on this topic and then propell the fulfillment of an investigation and any resulting criminal action.
April 21, 2009 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
First of all, it's not up to Obama or Biden or Emmanuel to initiate a hearing or investigation. That's up to the DOJ and/or Congress.
However, his statements may either instigate or, in this case, potentially stall investigations or hearings from going forward, especially in Congress. I suppose this will be a true test of whether we finally have an independent DOJ.
BTW, who's gonna win the 5th race at Belmont next Thursday? :)
April 21, 2009 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
VERY well-stated, and I agree whole-heartedly. Obama plays chess, not checkers. And Holder already told us during his nomination hearings that water-boarding is torture, and that no one is above the law...these things take time to play out and with Sen. Diane Feinstein saying they need to get their findings completed and out...we need to be patient, difficult as it is...the chess pieces ARE moving.
April 21, 2009 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd hate to be in the no-man's land position Obama is in right now. Due to prior statements he's now forced to make clarifying statements, any of which is likely to be misconstrued. He seems to be walking a very fine line. Trying not to prejudge, while saying it's the job of Congress and DoJ. That's how I'm reading it. He's walked back to an "abundance of caution stage" - which is where he should have stayed from the get-go. This is not his job. Prosecution is not his job. Telling us to just reflect is not his job either.
He's a bright man. I read this a man who's been humbled by recent events. Let's leave this where it belongs. Not in the executive branch. He can't prejudge. He can't pre-decide on a process or an outcome.
I feel we're on safer ground than over the weekend and even yesterday. Not bedrock. But at least no longer in quicksand.
April 21, 2009 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, it is a little embarassing to watch him have to catch himself. He would be much better off saying..."any hearings or investigations concerning the past administration lies with the DOJ and Congress. I have other equally important matters to deal with" and leave it at that.
Too late.
April 21, 2009 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right. It's excruciating. It started in that CIA video yesterday. First time I think any of us have seen him less than relaxed and in control. He's self-conscious - due to the position he's placed himself in. In some ways he seems to be a man who wants to be the "pater familias" no matter the situation. He'd like to have advice to give the country. He'd maybe like to be able to give a little legal lecture. But he's the prez - not the professor - not the AG. He needs to reflect on that, I think. And I trust he will. (he has plenty of psych assistance available - I know that. I am not among them, but I know whereof I speak)
April 21, 2009 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you are right TheraP. He seems pretty self-aware, despite the hectic pace of his position. It's evident that unlike W, Cheney and most Republicans, he is capable of introspection and self-examination, something conspicuosly and chronically absent in the previous administration.
Sometimes, I feel like we are slowly starting to re-learn how to live in a democracy. After eight years of abuse, I guess we may need some time to recover. I am almost reliving my youth in South America under a military dictatorship. Deja vu all over, I guess!
April 21, 2009 5:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good analysis.
April 21, 2009 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's what he should have done, but instead he decided to kiss up to the CIA and the conservatives. That decision has now put him in a very difficult place. The question now for him is, how he extricates himself from the untenable positon he has put himself in. If his past behavior is any guide, he will side with the status quo and the corrupt powers that be.
April 21, 2009 6:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think he's already halfway there. Or further. He is already demonstrating that he listens... and that is hugely different from the past administration.
April 21, 2009 6:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I genuinely hope you're right and I'm not, but I really do doubt it. He's fully invested with the insiders now and they are the heart of all the corruption in DC.
April 22, 2009 9:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
He carefully left open the door about people who didn't follow the rules and the people who wrote the rules.
He's letting progressives put pressure on lawmakers to investigate -- if there is the political will to do that -- and not letting the GOP claim that he was eager to go after the Bushies.
We have to have the political will to do it.
Meanwhile, Cheney & Co. are lobbying the media to try to peddle the meme that "torture works".
April 21, 2009 4:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cheney apparently still thinks he's President :)
April 21, 2009 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink