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Record Suggests Pelosi Did Little In Response To Torture Briefing
As we said before: Whatever the specifics of exactly what was and wasn't said during the September 2002 CIA briefing that Nancy Pelosi received about enhanced interrogation techniques, it seems clear that she was given enough information to conclude that we either had already conducted waterboarding and other harsh techniques, or that we very well might in the near future.
So the more important question, which seems to be getting less attention today, is what Pelosi did in response. And the short answer appears to be: very little.
The briefing was first reported by the Washington Post in December 2007, which revealed that lawmakers including Pelosi were given "a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk."
And Porter Goss, who attended that same briefing as the intelligence committee chair -- and admittedly isn't exactly an honest broker here -- told the paper: "Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing. And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement."
The Post added:
With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter.
That exception refers to a 2003 classified letter sent to the CIA as an official protest by Rep. Jane Harman, who succeeded Pelosi as the ranking Democrat on the intel committee.
And later in the story, the Post reports:
Pelosi declined to comment directly on her reaction to the classified briefings. But a congressional source familiar with Pelosi's position on the matter said the California lawmaker did recall discussions about enhanced interrogation. The source said Pelosi recalls that techniques described by the CIA were still in the planning stage -- they had been designed and cleared with agency lawyers but not yet put in practice -- and acknowledged that Pelosi did not raise objections at the time.
So it appears that Pelosi -- who would leave the intel committee at the end of 2002 to become minority leader -- did little.
Now, there are some significant caveats here:
- That same story also notes:
Congressional officials say the groups' ability to challenge the practices was hampered by strict rules of secrecy that prohibited them from being able to take notes or consult legal experts or members of their own staffs. And while various officials have described the briefings as detailed and graphic, it is unclear precisely what members were told about waterboarding and how it is conducted. Several officials familiar with the briefings also recalled that the meetings were marked by an atmosphere of deep concern about the possibility of an imminent terrorist attack.
In other words, we don't know exactly what Pelosi was told, she couldn't talk to lawyers or her staff, and there was legitimate fear of another attack.
Still, Harman, for instance -- who admittedly seems to have received a more detailed briefing -- sent a classified letter of protest. So it's not true to say there was nothing whatsoever that Pelosi could have done.
Here's the larger point: Whatever we end up finding out about the specifics of what was and wasn't said in that briefing, it already seems clear that Pelosi didn't do all that she could have. Of course, that's not an argument -- as some Republican torture supporters seem to think -- against a full investigation into how these techniques were developed and approved. In fact, it's yet another good reason why such a probe is exactly what we need.
Josh
Zachary
Please take note of numerous posts by emptywheel this morning (and last night)on this very issue. There are large holes in what's being reported and you seem unaware of them. Discrepancies of time and place and whether or not persons named as briefed were even legislators at the times they've been named as such.
Start here and work your way backwards and forward. Be sure to read the threads as well:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/05/07/cia-lying-to-abc-about-torture-again-abc-reporting-it-uncritically-again/
May 8, 2009 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please see this comment (by phred) in particular:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/05/08/breaking-news-cia-manipulating-briefing-process/#comment-155271
May 8, 2009 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also see this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/08/waterboarding-not-discuss_n_200087.html
Please, Zack, don't make me have to post every link to get you up to speed here.
You have my sympathy, but at the very least, check to see what EW's group is finding on this or post a link that people should check there for the latest. (sorry folks, but this is way more than turf issues... this is our future, our children's future, and the Rule of Law here - and the other side is doing everything to distract and undermine what needs to come, imvho)
May 8, 2009 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
TheraP,
Thank you very much for your time and effort on this. Your eloquence and your positive attitude in the face of a subject that is truly appalling are greatly appreciated.
May 8, 2009 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I salute you, my friend! I am in the fortunate position of having the time and a very frugal lifestyle to pursue this. I'm not leaving my post! And I appreciate your kind words.
May 8, 2009 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a blog I just put up related to how culpable are the rest us, not just Dem leaders, who failed to ask more, do more about torture:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/therap/2009/05/conspiracy-to-sanction-torture.php
May 9, 2009 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually your link never disputes anyone not being a legislator at the time, but wether they were in attendance at briefings.
But your larger point remains. The accuracy and content of this "unclassified document" has numerous wholes in it to say that support the headline TPM and many other corporate media outlets are running with and the GOP are using to try and noise jam the real point is, which is even if Pelosi was 100% onboard (which this does not at all support) it is analogous to blaming a passenger in car for the driver intentionally running over pedestrians.
Focus on the real issue, not the chafe the duplicitous fucks at the CIA throw out there when talk of criminal charges are still being pushed for.
This is the CIA for fucks sake. They have been running secret wars, engineering coups, running propaganda psy-ops, assassinations, black ops, etc. as part of their very mission statement from the formation of the agency itself. So any document these guys come up with is sacrosanct bona fide truth?
Are you shitting me?
May 8, 2009 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, in one of those threads, someone mentions that Goss was listed as being briefed at a time when he was no longer in Congress. (I can't go back right now and search for that exact link.)
May 8, 2009 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you seriously suggesting that through the decades of CIA-driven black ops, wars, torture and murder, the "passengers" sitting next to the CIA keeping MUM instead of trying to put a stop or speaking up about it are *not* implicated in ANY way? How do you even know if the passenger hasn't been abetting the crimes??
I used to despise seemingly intelligent Republicans for turning a blind eye and refusing to acknowledge the immorality and failures of their Neo-Con Party and Fuhrer Bush but it seems the disease's rate of infliction is bi-partisan.
Dems are just as unlikely to hold their Party and Dear Leader accountable for everything from wiretapping, torture, TARP atrocities, Wall St and AIPAC boot-licking.
May 9, 2009 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually who knows the facts about any of this. As I recall, those hearings only discussed illegal methods as a thing that COULD be done, not that they were doing it concurrently as the hearing was happening. To attempt to shift the burden away from the Bush Administration, Bush, Cheney and their Justice lawyers who approved the torture clearly outlawed by the Geneva Convention is an exercise in silliness. The Bush Cheney White House folks, DOD lawyers, Ag's office etc were the ones that approved the muck. And by the way, for the Justice Department to charge those lowly ranked folks at Abu Graib while being culpable themselves is the height of hypocrisy.
May 10, 2009 1:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
"...and there was legitimate fear of another attack."
Legitimate fear? Oh, was there another attack? Don't you mean there was widespread fear, hyped to the max by the Bush administration?
May 8, 2009 6:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Speaking of hype, has anyone stopped to consider the Congressional political climate during the Bush administration?
Democrats. the "minority", were not permitted to perform investigations, or even hold "committee" meetings... they resorted to meeting with members of their own party informally, in the basement of Congress. Apart from this overt display of disrespect by the Republicans, it's clear that they didn't have the power to order lunch.
With this in mind, does it not strike anybody here a bit... funny?... that suddenly, Democrats were called to intelligence "meetings", where cursory descriptions of interrogation methodologies were given, yet no "permission" was ever asked of these Democrats to pursue any of these policies?
My takeaway here is that this was all engineered in advance, for this very day. If the proverbial shit ever hit the fan, you'd have a bunch of senators, Congresspeople and RW media pundits, coming out of the woodwork, on cue, and claiming that the Dems were "just as guilty". Believe me, this was all put into the mix, at the time of these BS "meetings".
The only reason the intelligence community and their Republican pals ever bothered to call the unwashed Democrats into the room (and the housebroken Dems were all too thrilled to be included in the festivities!), was to set up patsys to give them cover down the road. They knew damned well this day might come.
May 8, 2009 7:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Barry. And Brilliant. Begin with the same letter! Thank you, Barry. :)
May 8, 2009 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't forget about the fact that Democratic congressional offices were evacuated by anthrax attacks which we know were not foreign in origin but from a strain form US military labs.
Things that make you go hmmmm.
May 8, 2009 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for saying it better than I could. When this all supposedly happened the Democrats had zero power. If she had spoken up the media frenzy would have been all about how she had revealed classified information and betrayed America, because other Democrats knew nothing and would be told just what the Bush cabal wanted them to squeal to the press. Had she spoken up, we might be enduring a McCain presidency now and the associated deep Hoover-style depression.
I don't like Nancy "no impeachment" Pelosi, but these stories are character assassination plain and simple.
May 8, 2009 9:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
One actually needs "character" before it can be character assassination. As a Dem, she is an embarrasement.
May 10, 2009 12:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
The main thing is not to get bogged down in lots of details at this point. That's the reason we need an investigation. This whole Pelosi flap highlights the need for an independent, nonpartisan, fearless and relentless special prosecutor to investigate everything having to do with the torture program from start to finish.
We know that Republicans will have to be indicted if there is an investigation with any integrity at all and that's as it should be. If such an ivestigation also were to cause embarassment or indictment of Democratic leaders for failure to do anything, to raise any objection, to protest the torture program in any way or to reveal it to the public then so be it. That too, is as it should be. If the facts are such that Pelosi or Bush or Cheney or anyone else acted in an unethical, immorral, or simply deficient manner then we need to know and a prosecutor needs to determine whether or not those actions or failures to act were indictable offenses. That determination should be made solely upon what the law calls for without any modification, adjustment or bending of the law to assist in ameliorating the consequences for any of the guilty parties.
No one at all should be immune from investigation or prosecution for their involvement in this crime against humanity. Let the chips fall where they may! If Pelosi or any of the congressional Democrats hands are clean then an investigation will make that perfectly clear. If not, then they deserve whatever is coming to them just as all the others do. Every single one of them knew this was torture, they knew it was illegal and they either did it anyway or kept their mouths shut. What a disgrace! The only way to restore the good name and reputation of our country is to investigate and prosecute.
May 8, 2009 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I completely agree with your analysis, oleeb. Much smoke is being blown in an effort to distract us. We need a Special Counsel. ASAP. And I'm counting on the international community to do for us what we should be doing already, if we don't step up to the plate.
In some ways an international war crimes tribunal would be better. As it insulates the US from investigating itself and it is less likely to be considered a partisan endeavor. But I'll take whatever, so long as it is an independent body doing the investigating and it has full power to bring indictments to anyone involved, especially those way up on top of the totem pole and their willing collaborators in law and psychology.
May 8, 2009 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Indeed, anyone who is convinced of their innocence in this matter, should be calling for a full investigation. It will not only hold those responsible as accountable, but it will clear the good names of any who might be innocent but are being tarnished nonetheless.
May 8, 2009 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I fear that "an international war crimes tribunal" has already been sold to many, including the MSM, as a part of the Great Left-wing Conspiracy (long may it wave!)
I think that since we made this mess, it's up to us to fix it.
May 8, 2009 11:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very few prefer an international tribunal. At least not here in the US. And it's very doubtful the few that prefer it here could have any sway abroad. But that's what we'll get if we do not investigate and prosecute on our own. Indeed, the impetus for a Special Prosecutor here may well come from those abroad, who cannot prosecute UNLESS we refuse to do so.
Stay tuned....
May 9, 2009 12:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Co-sign and agree, again.
May 8, 2009 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Damn right.
May 8, 2009 6:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Record Suggests Pelosi Did Little In Response To Torture Briefing"
I'm beyond tired of seeing this focus. The record more than suggests that many others did little.
But imagine that you are a busy Congressperson in Sept. 2002. The CIA sends someone to brief you. They outline some plans and they tell you that as harsh as the plans may sound, they have been reviewed for legality and passed muster.
Why would you DO anything? You'd file it away in your mind (you were not allowed to make notes).
When Harmann complained a year later, that was a year and an invasion later, right?
You might also note that the CIA list indicates the "considerable detail" briefing was for Roberts (and maybe Rockefeller), not Pelosi.
May 8, 2009 7:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Harmann was briefed 6 months later, I don't actually know what date she wrote and sent her letter. She was briefed just about the time KSM was being waterboarded, reported as March 2003, which is also about when Rumsfeld renewed approval of some techniques for the military.
May 8, 2009 7:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
And you also know that to reveal any information given in the briefing would be a felony. You would be investigated by the Republicans, found guilty, and then hauled off.
We need an independent counsel.
May 8, 2009 8:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen!
May 8, 2009 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, you are missing the point. Harmann wrote a letter the next year, no felony. Now maybe Harmann's letter got her into hot water and put on an enemies list (ala the phone taps) but at this point that seems far-fetched.
The point was that at that time there was no red flag, and probably not even a yellow flag if Pelosi's version is correct. It is not that she felt threatened and thus kept silent. It is that the media now is making this into a big deal when it wasn't.
May 8, 2009 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eds:
Get it straight. Harman's phone was NOT tapped. She was called from a phone which was tapped.
One assumption - That the person calling her knew that the phone being used was tapped and was trying to set her up explains much.
May 11, 2009 7:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
From my view, I certainly agree and note the pain-staking and sensative concern(s).
Please note this has seemingly all been well known from at least the past 8+ years and (if not many decades!!) and especially by those in Washington, DC.
Please recollect, remember and recall that the Bush//Obama Administration in reference to 'State Secrets' !! (torture, legal//illegal rendition, murder, illegal wiretap, fisa concerns, loss of habeas corpus, Financial ecetra) has since the Bush//Obama, now Obama//Bush, Obama//AG Holder has been at least Testified to, since his Inaguration, in US Federal Court, (seemingly numerous times) that they are Identical to the Bush Administration.
So, again from my view, I hope that at least these initial 3 first steps will be given cinsideration as that I again re-mention and that hopefully our US Administration and Media will give us some faith to hope for the faith for the hope for the 'Change We Can Believe In' going into the weekend and in the World known, 'Sunday Morning News' on CBS,NBC,ABC and FOX and as follows;
I certainly agree with the endeavors that suggest proper and forthright Transparency with proper and forthright, 'Oversight and Accountability' and as mandated within our US Constitution, Bill of Rights, Democracy, Declarations, Treaties, ecetra.
1) In my view any duly sworn and presiding US Representative (example: Rep Jane Harmon) must write//fax ecetra their Chairman and the US Senate and Congressional Judicary Chairman and Members and all Executive//Judicial Branch Leadership and Members upon their knowledge of any Act//Policy//Law, rule and/or regulation that would and/or could be viewed as Traitorous, Treasonous ecetra and in violation of our US Constitution, Bill of Rights, Democracy, Declaration(s), Treaties, ecetra.
2) It is widely known that there is ongoing Rep. John Conyers, US Congressional Judicary Committee of Congressional of 8/2008 entitled 'Executive Powers and Its Limitations''Impeachment Hearings' that should have well resolved these concerns, as of today.
3) A Senatorial//Congressional 'Up or Down' 'Vote' should occur today and certainly the Stimilus Bill should have retained the Platts/ Van Hollins Obama 'Federal Employee Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Restoration Act' and to open, re-open all past cases, that was removed at the last minute Secret Conference by US Senator Susan Collins and US President Barack Obama.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
May 8, 2009 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is going to stick to Pelosi the same way Hillary's war vote stuck to her. Pelosi's answer to this seems weak to me.
The Republican sharks smell blood in the water, they will try to get Pelosi to resign her Speakership and if they're successful it will be a boost for their morale and it will temporarily slake their bloodthirstiness.
May 8, 2009 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, that's a stretch based on the available info.
May 9, 2009 4:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
The problem with your post is taht Republican sharks circling have not one shred of evidence to go on. There is concrete and factual evidence that the Bush cabal knew exactly what was going on and still approved this disgusting treatment of POWs being held at the outlaw prison of Gitmo. Outlaw because it was run by a big bunch of outlaws up and down the administration. They clearly recognized the illegality of the treatment being given at Gitmo since they tried several AbuGraib military people for their far less obnoxious treatments of detainees.
May 10, 2009 1:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Mjj,
have things changed, do Republican sharks need something to go on to attack their political foes?
I seem to remember Clinton the serial murderer, Gore the pathological liar, Kerry the coward, Obama the Muslim born in another country.
May 11, 2009 8:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Zach -- I can tell you're feeling defensive about TPM's coverage. But no one (or at least no one I'm aware of who has taken the torture issue seriously) is suggesting that the Dems are lily white or should avoid being held responsible in some fashion. There's enormous disappointment that they didn't find a way to put a stop to this nightmare. We can all argue about how much was due to the system being broken versus political cowardice. But we can't argue that the Dem performance was less than what we hoped from them.
However, that doesn't mean that TPM has to go chasing off after every bit of shiny that parts of the CIA and the Republicans toss out there. Their goal is to distract the press and change the discussion from the criminals who designed this illegal system, implemented it, and mastered bureaucratic games to impede anyone who might have objected in a meaningful fashion from (1) learning about what they were up to in a timely manner or (2) having access to power levers to challenge them.
So report on a document such as the CIA chart for what it is -- a schedule of briefings that gives us some more data, but which leaves most of the original questions unanswered and the he-said-she-said disputes unresolved. And before you hit the "post" button, take a moment to check with others on these here intertubes who have been doing a yeoman's job of tracking the complex details and know where all the discrepancies and red flags are.
That's how you should have handled the Pelosi brouhaha this AM. Emptywheel had already blown a hole in it last night. It's also how you should have handled the Rockefeller dustup today -- and bravo for getting the further clarification from Rockefeller's office.
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't pursue your "what should the Dems have done" narrative. That's an important element of the big picture, especially when it comes to figuring out how we can avoid these sorts of catastrophes in the future. Is it possible to "fix a broken system" or are we stuck with having to always trust in the "good faith" of the White House and its ability to control rogue agencies or Vice Presidents?
But don't lose sight of the master narrative in your coverage. Every indication we've had so far confirms that this was a criminal conspiracy which exploited every bureaucratic rule in both executive and legislative branches to get their torture program implemented and to cover their backsides in the meantime. They were counting on the current brouhaha over what the Dems did or didn't know or do. Getting the Dems partially compromised was part of their self-protection plan to try to shut down any public investigation or commission. And now they are executing their plan by playing the press, which with the 24-hour news cycle has become easier than ever to manipulate.
Let's push this story as hard as possible in order to get a Truth Commission established -- as Pelosi herself has proposed.
It would be a shame if TPM let itself be played the way the MSM is being played.
May 8, 2009 8:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen!
May 8, 2009 8:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely. This is one of those cases where the reader's comments made a lot more sense than the story. Democrats don't have to eat their own because some burrowed in Bushy leaked an accusation. That's 3 stories this week that seemed beneath TPM's usual high standards.
May 8, 2009 9:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
C'mon Zach: While it is not irrelevant what Pelosi and other members of Congress knew and did, if anything, in response to that knowledge and should be investigated, it is of infinitely less importance than what the administration actually did: tortured and covered their actions with flimsy legal opinions. Making a big issue now about what Pelosi did or didn't know is clearly an attempt by Republicans to deflect and distract attention from where the focus needs to be: on the executive branch actors not on members of the legislative branch who had no authority over the prisoners or their interrogation. Besides it seems as if there was little or nothing that Pelosi could have done to stop the torture even if she had been so inclined. After all, what good did Harman's classifed letter do -- absolutely none, except to provide her with a little cover. Yes, an invesitgation should look into these briefings and congressional behavior, but only after resolving the key questions about executive branch conduct and behavior. Keep your eye on the ball -- it is in the Republican's interest to draw the nation's attention away from where it should be: on the Bush administration.
May 8, 2009 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eye on the ball: We need a Special Prosecutor. We do not need to get bogged down in trivia that distract us from the goal: Return of the Rule of Law.
May 8, 2009 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Many great comments, more eloquent than I, discussing how the meme perpetuated in this headline "Record Suggests Pelosi Did Little In Response To Torture Briefing" is distracting. We need to know how this policy developed, hold any dirty Dems culpable, yes, but not use their knowledge as an excuse for what happened.
So can we get the TPM front page link changed from
Pelosi's Response To Torture Briefing:
DO NOTHING?
May 8, 2009 8:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
First off, ANYTHING that Porter Goss and others torture-advocates needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Seriously, you trust these assholes? Wasn't he the same asshole who had vendettas against other lawmakers. This stinks to high heaven of CIA/GOP dirty tricks.
Keep in mind that the CIA and pro-torture faction's strategy now is to muddy the waters and implicate as many other people as possible. If "everyone is guilty" no one is.
Second, if lawmakers are told what the CIA is doing but that it is top secret and it would be a crime to tell anyone, what can they do? At the time, they were in the minority as well, so legislation was not much of an option either.
TPM and others, in the rush to judgment, play right into their hands. Pretty lame stuff, Zach.
May 8, 2009 10:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is exactly why Porter Goss and others are leaking this and pushing this. The CIA and Cheney torture people, and you are spending your time talking about Democrats. Get it?
May 8, 2009 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seems like an attempt by Drudge and TPM to sabatoage Obama and Pelosi to me.
The best I can understand is that she was briefed on advanced interrogation techniques, and waterboarding may or may not have been mentioned. Or if it was the discussion was brief, not many others knew, or it was very sensitive information.
This briefing did not say that it had been or was already implemented at that time, although I guess she could have assumed it eventually would be.
The problem is that I don't see what she was supposed to do. Go public with classified information? Scream and shout?
She did not have the power at the time to stop it. I'm sure she was aware that it would not be possible to change Bush & the Republican's minds.
I think it remains true that once the techniques were implemented, there were no further briefings or they were classified.
The main point is that Bush & Cheney were ignoring the Dems at that point and a resistance to waterboarding would have been fruitless.
May 8, 2009 9:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am still disturbed that, although almost everything Bush did was questioned and determined wrong by the Democrat leadership... they said and did nothing (including checking the legal accuracy) of the war or torture info...
The only thing I can see as the reason was that it didn't really affect them personally. THEY were not being tortured and THEY weren't being sent off to war.
I would also venture to guess that checking for legalities and accuracy took too much time away from the donor events and trips, which were deemed much more important...
Sorry... I've got friends who are now dead due to our leadership's (both sides) lack of concern for commoners...
May 8, 2009 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
one more note...
those are the same folks who sent REAL patriots off to war. And those REAL patriots were willing to DIE for what this nation stands for...
Notice just how many politicians were willing to even cause a stir... or risk a trial for standing up for what was right.
May 8, 2009 9:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Without my disclosing my seemingly confidential and very sensitive concerns and/or my 'review and consider' allegations I have relayed in writing to Mr. Tom Devine at the Government Accountability, with aspect of the Veterans Adminstration, DOJ, Beth Slavet (former Senator Kennedy aide and Merit System Protection Board co-chair), Hedge Funds, former VA Principie Chief and deffered and/or excused prosecution recepient from fraud allegations, Rep. Henry Waxman and my written allegations and/or serious concerns of Congressional fraud, conflict of interest and gross negligence that may have seemingly caused great harm or death of a Veteran from a seemingly gross negligence incident and from the seemingly Direct Supervision of Rep. Henry Waxman, VA Congressional Liason Office and many other concerns.
I will mention that on the Mr. Tom Devine, Whistelblower Organization, Government Accountability Project, GAP website has re-listed Ron Simon, as Advisory Board Member (formerly Board of Directors GAP Member) and with a mention of General Counsel of the (Washington, DC) American Legion. Please note that it has been mentioned in the media that his significant long time girlfriend is the top person at the Washington, DC American Bar Association and in charge at that time of the American Bar Public Relations Magazine that in appx. 10/2007 named and awarded the disgraced US AG Gonzales 'Attorney of the Year' and in 10/2007 named US AG Mulkasey 'Attorney of the Year' for 2008 and with runner-ups of a disgraced and resigned White House Attorney and the convicted Libby or Rove and another similar nominee.
I thought it prudent and that I should publically say something in reference to the 'johnnydoughey' blog comment reply.
TPM, please allow me to apply explanations, corrections, modifications, clarifications and/or deletions.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
May 8, 2009 10:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Note: The American Legion, Disabled American Veterans, DAV and all other similar Organizations are to my knowledge not Private Organizations and are 100% Federal Employees.
May 9, 2009 12:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
ps. You mention Jane Harman did raise an objection in a letter. Notice she is the same Harman who *someone* leaked info on recently. Sounds like CIA/Porter Goss are on a tear. Perhaps even Cheney.
The real scandal hear is not Harman or Pelosi -- it is the pro-torture faction which is now ferociously trying to save itself from prosecution and infamy.
May 8, 2009 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
WATERBOARDING IS ILLEGAL
http://lawreview.wustl.edu/slip-opinions/waterboarding-is-illegal/
1. Torture Act
2. War Crimes Act
3. Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of Persons Under Custody or Control of the United States Government
4. Additional Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment of Punishment
"The United States has enacted statutes prohibiting torture and cruel or inhuman treatment. It is these statutes which make waterboarding illegal. The four principal statutes which Congress has adopted to implement the provisions of the foregoing treaties are the Torture Act, the War Crimes Act,and the laws entitled "Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of Persons Under Custody or Control of the United States Government" and "Additional Prohibition on Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment." The first two statutes are criminal laws while the latter two statutes extend civil rights to any person in the custody of the United States anywhere in the world."
May 8, 2009 10:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pelosi was a collaborator in war crimes. To do nothing when shew know that torture had been, or was going to be, committed was a dereliction of moral and legal obligation. Clever of the Bush/Cheney group to co-opt her this way. It ensured that the Democrats wouldn't impeach or investigate because Pelosi had become a collaborator by dint of her omission. Along with Bush, Cheney, Yoo, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, etc., she should be indicted. She surely should not continue as Speaker of the House, which brings shame on the nation and on the Democratic party.
May 8, 2009 11:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
She should stand up and say that she welcomes a Special Prosecutor. That should call everybody's bluff!
May 9, 2009 12:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is all the more reason that ALL the documents should be brought out. My only problem with all this is that we're letting the CIA, which has a helluva lot to lose the more questions are asked, paint Pelosi as a collaborator. They want to tell us she was told; I want to know EXACTLY what she was told. There's a great deal of difference between "We're going to do some things that go right up to the line of unacceptable methods," and "The technique we're going to use is something we have executed other people for using." The thing is this: Unfortunately, the Bush administration fouled everything it touched for 8 years, and one of the things it did was to co-opt the CIA and the FBI to allow them to do anything they wanted. And they co-opted Congress by telling them part of the story in "classified" briefings so even if a member of Congress had misgiving they coudn't make those known. People like Zelnikov had misgivings and their concerns were sloughed off. So if Pelosi had had misgivings they would have listened to her? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
May 9, 2009 9:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, Zach, for writing this up the way you did. The points about porter goss's possible enmity are well-said, as are the points about ABC rushing to judgement. But too many commenters seem too eager to believe pelosi's denials and obfuscations. When she and harry reid announced that "impeachment is off the table," anyone paying attention would have wondered why. There was already information out that the gang of eight had been read in on all this, plus the fact that secrecy could not be broken without severe consequences, though many whistle-blowers have said "damn the consequences; i must tell this or that; my soul requires it." I have always suspected that many dems would block true investigations since they could/would also be implicated in the process. Feinstein's closed-door investigation could go on for years, and any discovery could be buried for years. I despise that only waterboarding has come to equal torture; many of the techniques that the gang would have been read in on also constituted torture: being shackled to a concrete floor and doused at intervals by cold water, for instance. Stuffed into tiny dark crates, with or without bugs. Hung from hooks in ceilings. Lying endlessly in your own vomit, feces, and urine. Being force-fed while shackled. When i have nightmares about it, waterboarding is not the only place my dream imagery goes.
Zach and TPM are not naiive idiots buying into mainstream talking points. I think they are struggling to expose any potential culpability of dems as well as bush administration authors. If anyone sat silent, let them make their cases to the public or investigators, but to simply allow them a free pass on reporting would be wrong. We must police each other, not just the other guys.
May 9, 2009 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
What a great set of comments!!
The MSM has so many of our Congress people (not to mention the public at large) bamboozled that we will have to keep investigating for reality and complaining for a while before good minds start thinking properly again.
However, the most effective pressure points as to Congress is ultimately their individual constituencies.
Please keep it up TheraP, Barry Champlain, Oleeb, nadezhda and the rest of you folks!!
The country needs it.
May 9, 2009 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Read the headline here in dismay that all emptywheel's work had been missed. But then read the comments, and felt a great sense of gratitude that so many brilliant readers and commenters set the record straight. Thank you, all!
May 9, 2009 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
There's a lot of smoke being blown on this issue, especially in the early comments here and by emptywheel. Panetta (and the Obama Administration) clearly doesn't want to take responsibility for what came in the years before him, in particular the Bush Administration's record keeping, and his demurral is treated by certain fans of the Democratic Party like its a golden football.
First of all, it's inconceivable that Bush Administration didn't brief leaders of both parties early on about what they were up to in at least sufficient detail that the latter didn't have a picture of what was going on. It was not only agreed upon protocol, but elementary CYA.
Second, the anti-terrorism actions, legislation and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and operations elsewhere were bi-partisan. From early on, the Democrats (as a whole and sometimes in virtual unanimity) supported the Bush Administration's "security" legislation, and continued to do so through his last days.
Third, this briefing business is old news and was never effectively disputed on the first go around.
The use and promotion of torture is and has been SOP for the U.S. government and many of its components (CIA, military, police) for decades irrespective of party in the presidency, and this is well documented. The difference with the Bush Administration is that it didn't do much of a job of hiding it, especially using Guantanamo, and a failing war exacerbated tensions among ruling class factions.
May 9, 2009 1:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again and including the abundance of my prior years of blog comment replies on GAP,POGO,NWC, and TPM (and some of there there Articles referenced links)on this new media of blog communication, is that there are referenced links that may add additional 'review and consideration' from our past and within the context of this Article that with painstaking and formidable due-dilligence appears to demand and request Transparancy with proper and forthright 'Oversight and Accountability'.
Please note to recall, from 'just this one source of and within this new Blog Media' and in just this one area of the incidences of the early 1970's that seemingly allowed for the (ongoing?) Transparency with 'Oversight and Accountability' that is mentioned on ['Wikipedia, type; Attica Prison Riots].
I mention this as seemingly no one else has and it may offer some further, proper and forthright, review and consideration and/or provide an educationl point of view from our prior History as this Wikipedia reference Article mentions (allegations of Torture, Murder, Abuse, seemingly many lies and/or cover-up, ecetra and/or the resolvements and resolvement attempts, thereof).
Thank you for your time and consideration.
May 9, 2009 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Rockefeller Commission is mentioned within the Wikipedia, 'Attica Prison Riots' referenced Wikipedia Article.
May 9, 2009 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm simply speechless. You lot sound EXACTLY like the Republicans defending Bush and their Party through some of the worst exposes and mistakes. Honest, both sides of the same coin. Now I understand how seemingly "moral" and intelligent Republicans can defend to the death the mistakes of their Party and Bush, NOT holding them ACCOUNTABLE, and decrying the Democrats who did so as attempting to play partisan polictics.
May 9, 2009 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I surely hope you are not refferring to me!! from my blog comment reply just above your blog comment reply. I guess you have not correctly and fully read and comprehended my blog comment reply above your blog comment reply.
I have clearly for years and decades and on this very TPM Article have posted the following;
---------------------------------------------
From my view, I certainly agree and note the pain-staking and sensative concern(s).
Please note this has seemingly all been well known from at least the past 8+ years and (if not many decades!!) and especially by those in Washington, DC.
Please recollect, remember and recall that the Bush//Obama Administration in reference to 'State Secrets' !! (torture, legal//illegal rendition, murder, illegal wiretap, fisa concerns, loss of habeas corpus, Financial ecetra) has since the Bush//Obama, now Obama//Bush, Obama//AG Holder has been at least Testified to, since his Inaguration, in US Federal Court, (seemingly numerous times) that they are Identical to the Bush Administration.
So, again from my view, I hope that at least these initial 3 first steps will be given cinsideration as that I again re-mention and that hopefully our US Administration and Media will give us some faith to hope for the faith for the hope for the 'Change We Can Believe In' going into the weekend and in the World known, 'Sunday Morning News' on CBS,NBC,ABC and FOX and as follows;
I certainly agree with the endeavors that suggest proper and forthright Transparency with proper and forthright, 'Oversight and Accountability' and as mandated within our US Constitution, Bill of Rights, Democracy, Declarations, Treaties, ecetra.
1) In my view any duly sworn and presiding US Representative (example: Rep Jane Harmon) must write//fax ecetra their Chairman and the US Senate and Congressional Judicary Chairman and Members and all Executive//Judicial Branch Leadership and Members upon their knowledge of any Act//Policy//Law, rule and/or regulation that would and/or could be viewed as Traitorous, Treasonous ecetra and in violation of our US Constitution, Bill of Rights, Democracy, Declaration(s), Treaties, ecetra.
2) It is widely known that there is ongoing Rep. John Conyers, US Congressional Judicary Committee of Congressional of 8/2008 entitled 'Executive Powers and Its Limitations''Impeachment Hearings' that should have well resolved these concerns, as of today.
3) A Senatorial//Congressional 'Up or Down' 'Vote' should occur today and certainly the Stimilus Bill should have retained the Platts/ Van Hollins Obama 'Federal Employee Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Restoration Act' and to open, re-open all past cases, that was removed at the last minute Secret Conference by US Senator Susan Collins and US President Barack Obama.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Posted by tpmreader
May 8, 2009 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink icle have posted the following;
May 9, 2009 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just like Harman raising hell over the issue of the government wire-tapping HER to deflect the FAR more serious issue at stake here, that she's SELLING her political clout to a foreign agent, we have a brouhaha over the "timing", politics and other issues of this briefing, BUT not about the Briefing itself, a scandalous event of huge political import. The implication of such revelations, however the method of disclosure, whether by the most hated Republicans or a private citizen's filing under the Freedom of Information Act, is ENORMOUS as it shows unequivocally that top ranking Dems have been on board with the worst political abuses and excesses of the Bush Admin. - wiretapping without FISA, accessories to AIPAC, the deregulation orgy and mass transfer of taxpayer's $$$ to Wall St as TARP, torture, spouting the same propaganda and voting for the same illegal invasion of Iraq, you name it.
The saddest truth is of course to realize that Dems are not much better than Republicans in holding their leaders' feet to the fire.
Don't even bother answering, I'm out of here. I'd rescind my membership if I can.
May 9, 2009 1:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please allow me to compliment and express my high appreciation for your seemingly painstaking, formidable, due dillgent, exemplary, superb and excellent, kind and gracious blog comment replies.
May 9, 2009 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's important to pay attention to the words people use, and also the words they haven't used. I'm sure we're all aware that a person who wants to mislead can make use of what you might call 'the assumption of good will'. A liar will employ verbal formulations, especially verb tenses, which are commonly used to mean one thing but which can be interpreted to mean something different.
We've dropped the use of many verb tenses which specify what occurred and when. Consequently, the remaining commonly used tenses cover many different situations, and can easily be used to mislead.
I'm not saying that's actually what is going on here. I'm sure we'll find out in time. But I'm trying to be flexible in my thinking for the time being.
The description of the 2/4/03 briefing is remarkable. It seems to contain the only usage of quotation marks prior to the '06 briefings. Quotation marks implies the intention to inform the reader in a specific way: EITs "described in considerable detail".
If we assume the writer has the intention of telling us exactly what was conveyed in the briefing, then the meaning is: [All] EITs [which had been used on prisoners were] described in [every significant] detail. But it really only says: [some] EITs [or maybe even EITs in general] were described [that is, explained, not necessarily reported on] in considerable [sounds impressive, but only means 'partially' or 'some'] detail.
What can you make of "how the water board was used"? It seems certain the writer wants us to think it says "I told him how we waterboarded the prisoner", the word 'how' a colloquial substitution for 'that'. Actually, it only says that the technique of waterboarding was explained. Note the distance between this phrase and the verb of the sentence, 'described'.
The whole thing is designed to sound, but not be, a precise description of the briefing. And it's not even a briefing of Jay Rockefeller. That came later.
Relevance to the Pelosi/Goss briefing? If the words "water board" was used in the description for 2/4/03, why not for the prior briefing?
Here's the article's statement from the former Spook-in-Chief Porter Goss: "Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing. And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement." Well, was it a "full understanding" or a "pretty full [partial] understanding"? And just what the hell does "in the room" mean? It's meant to imply but not actually say 'everyone present'. Not one active verb used. Obfuscation.
I imagine my post could draw a number of sarcastic replies. I don't think this stuff is trivial. I really want to figure out if we can trust Nancy Pelosi to be truthful. I'm not sure we'll ever be able to punish Cheney and other responsible parties for torturing people. It will be shameful if we fail to do so, and all of us will be at fault. Every detail is important.
May 9, 2009 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
In reference to your last paragraph and as 'Optomism expression for thought', within the endeavor towards successful Transparency with 'Oversight and Accountability' as from my interpretation, for seemingly the successful accomplishment to be achieved is with Congressman Dennis Kucinich as 'Speaker of the House' on Monday morning, 5/11/2009.
Seemingly, Congressman Kucinich would most likely be much more effective as 'Speaker of the House' for 'We the People'.
As many may recall, Congressional Representative Dennis Kucinich was a formidable and highly regarded 2008 Presidential Candidate, (that was seemingly and alleged, completely closed out from Main Steam Media and Presidential Debates) and was also a highly recognized, respected, regarded and formidable (invited) Speaker in the ongoing, and Testified to as the most important Congressional hearing within the past Century, the US Congressional Judicary Committee, Chairman John Conyers of 8/2008 'Presidential Powers and Its Limitations''Impeachment Hearings'.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
May 9, 2009 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Batter up, looking to deep center field.......
May 9, 2009 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why do you - those of you who do - believe the Republicans, CIA, etc. on this issue. They are still running their Rovian & Sigretti-like mis & dis -information campaigns.
It's easy, a misplaced comma or decimal point or a transposed numeral here & there.
Just any old excuse to jack-up somone who doesn't cave-in to your precious Palestinians. Well last time I looked, the Pals were terrorists, using Jimmy Earl's definition, not Clinton's.
Leave it; the Republican'ts are at it again.
May 9, 2009 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
When i heard those who were supposed to represent "WE The People" state that impeachment was off the table, I came up with two conclusions:
1. Crimes were evident to our new leadership, but they decided not to represent the commoners of this nation and instead decided to support their cronies in Washington or
2. Crimes were not yet proven to the satisfaction of our new leadership and thus were taken off the table because they had no intention of investigating the possible criminal acts.. which if true had sent many innocent men, women and children to their deaths... because they decided not to represent the commoners of this nation and instead decided to support their cronies in Washington.
Surprisingly, I have not altered my conclusions one iota...
May 9, 2009 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
UPDATE!!
I just watched and listened to former US Vice President Dick Cheney on CBS 'Face The Nation' 5/10/2009 at 8:50AM, PST.
1) Horrific. Horrific. The same 'Pack of Lies'!!
(Maniacal, Dishonest, Disingenuous, Deranged,
Despotic!!!!).
2) Despotic, Deranged, Maniacal, Dishonest!! as
VP Dick Cheney clearly and unmistakeably
stated to imply that 'Miranda"!! Rights!!
should be abolished and replaced
with 'Dick Cheney' 'US Law'!! that no one is
allowed to speak with a 'Lawyer, Attorney'!!
or have any 'Right'!! or any 'Access to a
legal Court of Law'!! especially a Democratic
US Court of Law!! (Also, these where the
similar and identical procedures that where
allegedly implemented Throughout the
Bush//Cheney era and confirmed by Vp Dick
Cheney and implied the President Bush had
full knowledge and consent!!!!).
I do not see it possible to be avoided and to avoid the issuance of an arrest warrent and subpoena for these two Individuals, George Bush and Dick Cheney on Monday Morning 5/10/2009.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
May 10, 2009 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
On Monday Morning and if, Speaker of the House Palosi is not replaced and to have Congressional Representative Dennis Kucinich as Speaker and/or President Obama//AG Holder!! has not requested the subpoenas and/or Arrest Warrents be complied with are we to assume that in fact Bush//Obama Administration is identical to the Obama//Bush Administration and as Testified to in the 9th Federal Circuit Court and all other Courts as 'State Secrets' 'Torture' and as have been fully vetted by our US Administration are Identical to the Bush//Cheney Administration!!!!
Therefore if President Obama is in the future alleged to be impeached are 'We the People' going to have to endure as US Administartive Defense of no-impeachment (like the Palosi, Reed and Kennedy ect). (I would not think it conceivable that President Obama could use the Defense that I can not be impeached as I may be an illegal Alien as court documents suggest and therefore his alien resident (green card) if any and US Citizenship may have to be heard first to see if President Obama would be deportable, therefore seemingly nullifying his US Presidency!!).
Obviously, I expect the mandates within our US Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declarations of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for All be forthrightly upheld and especially in the proper and forthright, respect and regard towards our Laws, Rules and Regulations, Treaties, Obligations, Responsibilities as best as possible and as thereof and within and towards God, Man and Country.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
May 10, 2009 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
In conjunction the continuing efforts to correct and consistent with President Obamas many pledges and promises of and to 'Get It Right' and the 'Changes We Can Believe In',
should read.........(.....Palosi, Reid and Kennedy ect). .........
May 10, 2009 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
should read.....(.....Pelosi, Reid and Kennedy ect.). .....
May 10, 2009 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Off she goes to Iraq. Hell, when it gets hot in the kitchen lets take a road trip. So what if it takes a hundred grand. I can't believe the USA accepts this person as the Speaker of the House. Fuck the maybes this person is a liar and a traitor. "Impeachment is off the table". Now we know what they were blackmailing her with. Get rid of this abomination of a human.
May 10, 2009 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anyone with a lick of sense can watch this pathetic excuse for a Speaker of the House during her latest interview with Maddow and come away with the affirmation that this person is backsliding in her recollection of events and her oblivious dodge of her responsibility. Don't take my word for it, take Professor Turley's. This is a direct rebuttal to much of the minutia put forward by FDL. As well, the issue of torture, considered as the Republican bouncing ball, which many follow to their detriment, completely fogs the real issues and crimes of murder and kidnapping plain and simple. Your overeducated zeal to prosecute torture which has been admitted has diverted you away from the most important crimes and the ones that they want you not to focus on. Get it, go after them for murder!
May 10, 2009 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pelosi & Frank are evil persons - as a matter of fact, try this on for size. They are, and I para-phrase:
1) Horrific. Horrific. The same 'Pack of Lies'!!
(Maniacal, Dishonest, Disingenuous, Deranged,
Despotic!!!!) that she has always used and The same goes for Barney Frank. Both have total denial.
2) Despotic, Deranged, Maniacal, Dishonest!! That pretty well describes their character.
I do not see it possible to be avoided and to avoid the issuance of an arrest warrent and subpoena for these two Individuals, Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank on Monday Morning 5/11/2009.
Well stated TPMReader
May 11, 2009 1:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
As these are important issues and in my continuing forward looking endeavors for 'The Change We Can Believe In', please allow me to additionally note the following;
My original DOJ//INS//MSPB//OSC//FEDCIR//(AFGE, American Federation of Federal Government Employees//supposed representation in file documents although not present and non-existent to this day) Merit System Protection Board, Office of Special Counsel, Federal Circuit Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit including the/my 'Whistleblower' Complaint filing #00-3446 and #02-3254 of 1/2000 contained these exact above words and was dissmissed on grouds of 'Res Judicata' and 'Sua Ponte' on 4/2002 and is now used as precedent and/or non-precedent against any and all litigants and at will.
1) As Senator Kennedy was my next Chain of Command as INS US Senate Chairman and US Senate Judicary Committee member, I called/wrote and submitted documents and in compliance with his office from 5/2002 until appx. 11/2002 at which time Senator Kennedy's office said he would not hear or have any knowledge of me and my case files. In my view Senator Kennedy and his office betrayed me and our Country with his refusal to hear me and my case files. Also with his recent and continuing 'No Impeachment' endeavors, it again appears to me he is betraying our Country and the proper and forthright, respect and regard, Obligations and Responsibilities towards the mandates of our US Constitution, Bill of Rights and within our Declarations of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for All.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
May 11, 2009 10:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Additionally, please note that it also may appear that I have also been betrayed by the Government Accountability Project et all including Mr. Tom Devine, Legal Director, National Whistleblower Center et all, Director Stephen M. Kohn and to some extent Project on Government Oversight and to some extent et all, to some extent Director Danielle Brian whom incidentally is a highly regarede and respected blog commentor on TPM.
Please note that my hopes remain that all the above mentioned and Senator kennedy and his US Senate Office will change there course and 'properly and forthrightly!!!!' support me, Whistleblowers and the 'Change We Can Believe In' and allow for the immediate proper and forthright procedures for Impeachment proceedings (including subpoenas, contempt of subpoenas and/or arrests, as necessary) as may be necessary and all other proper and forthright proceedings to proceed as may be necessary.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
May 11, 2009 11:03 AM | Reply | Permalink