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Soufan Challenges Torture Advocates' Case
Ali Soufan is now making the point that torture advocates cite the interrogations of KSM and Jose Padilla as two cases in which torture produced results. But waterboarding wasn't approved until August 1, 2002 -- after the interrogations of those two suspects occurred.
In other words, he seems to be arguing that such techniques weren't used, at least with legal sign-off, to produce that information.
This will undoubtedly need follow up.
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Josh
Zachary
These time-line observations have been out there for quite a while. But they don't seem to have had much traction.
It's a sad commentary on the demise of the MSM talking-head group. They used to connect the dots; now they just regurgitate the talking points.
May 13, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely this information has been out there. What a disgrace the MSM is. I have lived a long time and admittedly wasn't a news watcher all of those years, but there was a time when reporters reported news but then that was before Entertainment and News got lumped together by the big guys for ratings sake.
Thank goodness for the internet
May 13, 2009 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
'This will undoubtedly need follow up'. of which I will anxiously await, as seemingly and in fact and law,
1) Torture is a high crime and inisidious Inhumane Act and also within a Impeachable 'High Crime and Misdemeanor' offense and also irrespective of any alleged illegal//legal//illegal so-called application.
2) Torture is also in violation of all our US Laws, Rules and Regulations. Also, in violation of all our legal and law binding Domestic and International Treaties ecetra.
May 13, 2009 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
THE CORE OF THEIR TORTURE ARGUMENT: That if we perform these acts on our soldiers during training, therefore, these acts are not torture. Is the same as saying that if you perform acts(sexual acts) with your wife, then it is okay if you perform those acts on a 13 year old. Since they are both sexual acts, therefore they are both okay. One is a loving act, the other is sexual molestation. Just because an act is okay under condition A, doesnt mean that same act is okay under condition B. This goes to the SERE vs Torture framing that cheney is using as defense.
So, if it is okay for you to perform an act(a killing act) on enemy soldiers, you cannot claim that this makes it okay for you to do the same to 12 of your neighbours. One is serving your country, the other is murder. You cannot claim that since they are both the same act of killing, therefore killing 12 of your neighbours is somehow justified. The same way these torture apologist are using SERE training to justify torture. Like i said, Just because an act is okay under condition A, doesnt mean that same act is okay under condition B.
If you are to follow the cheney logic of: this is done to our soldiers, therefore it is okay. One can use that strain of reasoning to justify practically anything. Think of it. I can always find a condition where something is bound to be legal or even moral, then turn around and say, since it is moral/legal in this situation( A), therefore it is moral/legal under new situation( B) that suits me. I can use that reasoning to justify anything i want to do. Including cheating, stealing, physical assault, killing, harassment, infanticide, genocide, even holocaust.
It is not a ALL YES or ALL NO situation, Otherwise, since boxing or martial arts is okay, therefore is it moral/legal for me to start kicking you around?!?! That is the SERE argument that cheney is advancing. It is ridiculous, offensive, dangerous, and even abominable. Since you can use it to justify any acts on this planet.
May 13, 2009 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Two impportant arguments...
1. We did not otrrture
2. Torturing produced results
More and more, the torturers are looking to fight the battle on the grounds that... "let's just forget the fact that what we did was and is against international law, treaties, and moral decency... the important thing is that it worked!"
It looks as though, if presented to just our leaders in Wasington... these murderers and abettors would get free passes.
The only thing in their way now is public opinion from those folks who still believe our national values are to be promoted, not destroyed.
Too bad they will most likely still be the ones in power when our nation finally falls...
May 13, 2009 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your first paragraph is a dud. KSM wasn't captured until much later.
Also the use of "approved" is problematic there. The OLC memos of that date are not permission slips, they are qualified reviews of one law in the context.
May 14, 2009 3:45 AM | Reply | Permalink