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Taguba: Torture Photos Show Rape
Do the Abu Ghraib torture photos that President Obama wants to keep secret show even worse crimes that we've yet known about?
Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who, in a 2004 probe, documented widespread detainee abuse at the prison, has told The Daily Telegraph: "These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency."
According to Taguba's description, as summarized by the paper:
At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.
Another apparently shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.
If these are indeed the photos at issue in the lawsuit, and the Telegraph is accurately rendering Taguba's description of them, then that may help explain Obama's decision to keep them under wraps -- out of fear that such explosive images could legitimately place our troops in danger.
That's Taguba's view. He told the paper:
I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.
But by the same token, the suggestion that the photos depict even more unspeakable horrors than the images we've already seen only adds to the case that they be released, in order to provide a complete picture of what happened, in the name of ensuring it never happens again.
The Pentagon has denied that the photos at issue show the acts described by the Telegraph.
Taguba's original report contained somewhat similar claims, including "threatening male detainees with rape," "sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick." But he had not until now revealed the existence of photos showing male on female rape and sexual abuse.
The New Yorker's Sy Hersh, who reported on Taguba's findings in 2004, has also claimed that rape occurred, telling an audience later that year:
Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out."
We've been trying to contact Taguba ourselves, but he's apparently not doing interviews. It's unclear why and under what circumstances he spoke to the Telegraph.
Josh
Zachary
How appalling, that our soldiers, in an attempt to carry out the Bush Administration's official policy to mistreat prisoners, committed such atrocities. We must demand investigations, and prosecutions, of these crimes. We have a responsibility to right these wrongs. We also owe it to our country to make sure that our government does not become a rogue nation once again. We must return to the notion that we shall comply with our laws and treaties, in particular laws ban torture.
May 28, 2009 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
My concern is that the release of the pix merely highlights our inability to properly prosecute the lawbreakers.
May 29, 2009 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry, but it's inaccurate to say that Mr. Obama wants the photos "kept secret."
That he has acknowledged their existence has been widely reported. There is no reason why these should be seen anywhere but a court of law.
Imagine if a member of your family were raped or tortured - would you want photos of their trauma released to the world, or would you simply want that their abusers face justice?
May 28, 2009 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd want justice. When's Cheney scheduled to go on trial? I'd want the maximum of publicity to hasten that day.
May 28, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
exactly. let's turn the world's stomachs if that's what it takes to start a criminal investigation (one not confined to "bad apples")
May 28, 2009 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
The point isn't seeing the pictures. The point is who the hell even knows the crimes that were committed? How do we even know anyone was brought to justice for this stuff?
May 28, 2009 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
For a free people to govern themselves well, they must be able to find out what government is doing in their name. And whenever possible, their sources should be first-hand. That's the *practical* argument for releasing the photos. The *legal* argument is that executive-branch records are presumed public under U.S. law unless they fall under one or more specific exemptions, none of which these photos fall under.
Obama can whine all he wants; in the end, the Supremes will order him to give the ACLU the photos (they sued for them under the Freedom of Information Act). That's just the law. The ACLU has even offered to keep them from becoming public so long as there is an honest criminal investigation to which the photos are given as evidence.
As for the victims, we can obscure their faces before releasing the photos to spare them and their families unnecessary anguish. But the perpetrators' faces ought to be quite visible, so that we may hold them accountable, don't you think?
May 29, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough - but what about the other men and women in uniform, who may not have committed atrocities, but who will certainly be the target of public anger (and violence) in the Arab world?
I'll say it again - these fotos are not being destroyed, there are merely being restricted from (broad) public consumption.
Certainly, please use them to generate subpoenas and as evidence to get convictions. But there is no reason to "release them into the wild."
May 29, 2009 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have strongly supported releasing documents documenting torture and abuse but these give me pause.
I do believe that sunlight is the best disinfectant but on the other hand we already know that crimes of the utmost seriousness were committed at Abu Ghraib. If these photos are released, and they show what these reports claim, it will be a total bombshell and an impediment to efforts for peace. There will be rioting and protests in the Muslim world that its political leaders won't be able to ignore and we'll look even worse than we already do. Then again, anyone found committing these crimes needs to be prosecuted and we need to find out how far up this criminality and its cover-up went, since that question was never answered under Bush.
This is a tough one. I'm glad I'm not president.
May 28, 2009 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
crimes of the utmost seriousness were committed at Abu Ghraib
rape and murder? must've missed those. guess that's why they followed the chain of command to where the policy originated, right?
May 28, 2009 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I definitely missed the raping children of female detainees part.
WTF
May 28, 2009 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's notable that Taguba doesn't indicate whether he saw the photos himself. His 2004 report was based on sworn statements by detainees. The Telegraph story is unclear; there's no indication yet who's seen the photos, if anyone, or whether Taguba is assuming they show the worst of the allegations he collected.
May 28, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama gave the hard Cheneyite right a shot in the arm by not releasing this filth. We need them out in public to permanently discredit the forces of tyranny that even still threaten our Republic.
May 28, 2009 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry but
"'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has."
anyone involved with that needs to be killed publicly.
Conceal sodomizing children to protect the troops?
WTF?
You want to protect our good honest troops? Execute everyone involved in that horrid crap publicly.
May 28, 2009 5:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
As one poster said above, these pictures and or videos should be released only in a court of law.
I've read many posts and articles calling for release and none have yet to convince me that this will heal the country. It will inform them of what's going on, but they don't need these graphic photos to do that. Find the people that did this and punish them for it PERIOD and punish anyone who does it in the future.
May 28, 2009 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Meet the new administration..same as the old....CYA, obstruction and malfeasance
May 28, 2009 6:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
IIRC most of the Taguba report was based on eyewitness testimony from soldiers. (And CACI contractors?) There is also eyewitness testimony from prisoners. IIRC all of these statements were in an addendum to the report. It can all be found online.
If you have not read it yet then do not read the eyewitness testimony, this filthy evil shit will haunt you.
I read it when it came online and have not forgotten the graphic details since. Despite swearing I wouldn`t look at it again I checked and there is multiple accounts from prisoners of someone in uniform raping a boy estimated to be between 15-18 while pictures are taken.
I didn`t need to read it again for that, I remembered every fucking detail. I was looking, hoping in a bizarre way, for accounts of rape of adult male prisoners but I don't remember any and cant find anything besides the endless beatings, tieing people up and threats of rape in the shower, the female underwear and disgusting evil shit we all know about.
There were "amnesty boxes" were soldiers could leave photos, and Taguba has used every opportunity he had to explain his superiors limited the "scope" of his investigation... so maybe thats why we don`t know anything about adult males being raped. But with no indication of male adults being raped I worry its pictures of the story of this boy are what Taguba is talking about.
Maybe the guy who did it wasn`t American, the eyewitness noted his accent but what kind of accent it was is blacked out.
The eyewitness testimony can be found here, but be sure to read the stuff about adults before you decide to read the rest.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6527.htm
I watch and listen to every piece of audio and video of Sy Hersh I can get my hands on. He always fudges the identity of his sources differently with each talk. Whenever Sy hersh does interviews or gives a talk of any length he always returns to similar stories. The story of meeting the mother of a My Lai soldier and the woman at Abu Graihb. Its very rare for him to talk about the kids and the dogs at Abu Graihb.
CACI, which used to be an IT contractor before going into warzone prison work went on to get lots and lots and lots of contracts. This included the "lets help reelect Bush" GSA. They even got the contract to review which contractors would be banned from contracts and then had a bunch of database geeks do the work...
May 28, 2009 7:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm scared to read that report. smh
May 29, 2009 1:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Pentagon's denial shouldn't be taken at face value. Seems to me that unless Taguba is lying, the actual photos are nearly irrelevant.
It really is a shame that the US refuses to acknowledge the World Court. Either hand over Bush Admin officials (Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice, etc) for prosecution at the Hague or indict them here and now for war crimes.
Refusal to do so will stain US moral credibility, both domestically and globally, for generations.
May 28, 2009 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bruce:
US moral credibility, both domestically and globally, has already been stained and will remain stained for generations.
The only way now to purge this stain is to prosecute everyone involved to the fullest extent of the law. Especially the architects who devised and implemented this program.
Obama ignoring this simple fact is aiding and abetting the worst crimes against humanity since the Spanish Inquisition.
It is amazing how much sense can be made of the Bush Administration years if you only assume that Dick Cheney intended to foment perpetual war between Christians and Muslims for personal profit through his ties with Halliburton and KBR.
.
May 29, 2009 7:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
[[the worst crimes against humanity since the Spanish Inquisition.]]
I'm with you except for that. The Stalinist purges, the Holocaust, the Great Leap Forward and Rwanda were all worse. Not to say that this isn't very, very bad and deserving of investigation, prosecution and punishment.
May 29, 2009 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Covering up crimes is in itself a crime.
When will Obama realize this simple fact.
Not releasing these photos will not keep the information concerning what happened from getting out. In fact, not releasing them will encourage people to think even worse has happened, including torturing prisoners being held by the US Armed Forces unto death.
The real crime here, and the threat to US troops is that these violations ever occurred and were encouraged by officials in the Bush Administration, people who will likely return to government positions of power if the Republicans ever get back into a position of power in the USA.
Not bringing the perpetrators before a court of law can only hurt America now and in the future.
.
May 29, 2009 12:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, it is not the crimes themselves that are the problem here -- but rather, it is the evidence of those crimes that is the genesis of the problem. No evidence? No crime. No crime? No consequences. I get it now. I really do.
Yeah, you're right. If I'd simply listened when the Bush administration explained this same thing, I would have saved myself a lot of thinking here. Well, at least Obama is learning to tap dance quite nicely. Not that I ever doubted it; he is indeed highly intelligent, resourceful and pragmatic. And charming. Don't forget charming.
May 29, 2009 10:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly right.
'Covering up crimes is in itself a crime'.
'When will Obama realize this 'simple' fact'.
The facts and allegations are clear and unmistakeable and clearly expressed in the Historic Video Documentary 'Bush Link to Kennedy Assassination' on 'your-rights.com'. Sadly and unfortunately that no one takes the time and consideration to view this Historic Documentary Video in its entirety.
Negligence, gross negligence, conspiracy and complicity before and after the facts, murder.
May 29, 2009 10:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why would Taguba know which of the around 2000 pieces of media would be involved in the ACLU lawsuit - which is supposed to release around 50 pictures? The telegraph piece is pretty trashy. I think they are construing Taguba's discussion of the entire collection of photographs as if he were referring to the subset of photos in the ACLU lawsuit.
All this horrific stuff is already out there. We simply don't know how much is two people describing the same events from different points of view, how many are unique instances, what hasn't even been reported, etc. The operating assumption has become that the absolute worst abuses were commonplace. The reality is rape-as-interrogation could have happened 10 times, could be 10,000. Right now the world assumes 10,000 and that none of the abusers have been punished. Al Qaeda recruiters can make up narrative after narrative against this framework and they will be believed.
I still say that no matter how bad the truth is, leaving Al Qaeda with the ability to define the truth is worse. Until there is a full accounting, this issue will continue to place our troops at increased risk and undermine Obama's presidency.
May 29, 2009 11:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
"I still say that no matter how bad the truth is, leaving Al Qaeda with the ability to define the truth is worse."
Right on.
One of the major faults of Democrats is that they allow their opposition to define their arguments.
They have consistently done this politically with Republicans and are now allowing it to happen with this torture issue.
The defining of issues has been a Republican strong point for many years.
.
June 2, 2009 8:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
1. Remember that back when selected members of Congress were originally given access to the photos, Lindsey Graham came out of his showing telling reporters that the pictures showed rape and murder. Now - what ever happened to charges for rape and murder?
2. The Pentagon is claiming that in connection with the specific FOIA request there are only 44 pictures at issue - while there are said to be something more in the 1000+ unreleased pictures and videos. So there may be a lot of parsing going on in the Pentagon reference to the photos "at issue"
3. Obama has made a point out of saying that the pictures (also "at issue" IIRC) aren't all that sensational and that "appropriate actions" have been taken with respect to unreleased photos. Now, Mr. Transparency needs to sort out how truthful he is or is not going to be. We know that there have never been charges for the death of Jamadi, shown in the "ice man" photos. So what was the "appropriate action" taken there? Buchanan filing charges against Wecht for calling it a homicide? Was that the "appropriate action?" We also know that Graham said the pics/videos involved rape (in particular there have been references to rape on video) years ago, Taguba says the same thing now, Hersh has said the same thing and there have never been any charges - so? The Telegraph article refers to their being a civil lawsuit (yeah - that's "appropriate action") against the translator who is accused of raping the boy. Be nice to know status on that suit and also if pictures are being withheld from the plaintiff in that suit.
Pssst - maybe TPM can follow up with Graham's office and his earlier quote on the pictures showing rape and whether or not he was telling the truth then.
4. On releasing the photos, the first issue is providing an adequate description of what is shown in the photos and matching it up with the "appropriate action" that Obama promised the nation had been taken. The second issue would be actual release, with redactions and on that front, let's just say this - it's releasing the Abu Ghraib pictures that got several thousand "detainees" being held at AG and other camps released. It's releasing the pictures that highlighted to a wavering America that had been well propagandized the real values of Limbaughs and Cheneys. It's releasing the pictures that began to give a few Americans some minimal understanding of why we weren't being greeted with nothing but love and flowers. It's released the pictures that made people question the "mission" of bombing babies and running gulags. It's releasing the photos that gave some Americans an understanding beyond cold, cleaned up words on a page, what it means to talk about taking away clothes and placing someone in an uncomfortable position and what it means to abandon the Geneva Conventions as a matter of national policy. It took the Gonzales' mocking "quaint" references to the Geneva Conventions and allowed people to determine better whether or not it was "quaint" to provide standards that rejected what the AG photos revealed.
No pictures of the civil war, or the holocaust, or Abu Ghraib for that matter, and a very different response to those events. When you take reports of US soldiers deliberately taking family members hostages it comes across fairly cold and ho hum. When you have pictures of what they did to those hostages, you have to seriously question how we expect to ever win back hearts and minds of people we've treated in that manner. And with the pictures, there is a better national understanding of why just staying for awhile and "providing stability" will never erase from the tribal members of victims what was done, especially when no apologies and no reparations were ever made and no charges were ever tendered.
Apparently the new approach is to say that Pakistan is in such a meltdown that the pictures can't be released bc of what their effect might be in Pakistan. Well - lies aren't going to make Pakistan stable. Obama can try to just "move forward" and ignore all the people we caused to be disappeared in Pakistan, but Pakistanis and the Pakistan justice system haven't forgotten. Part of the instability in the country stems from our collusion with Pakistani gov to violate Pakistani law and disappear people.
May 29, 2009 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well said. Photos do not allow for obfuscation!
May 29, 2009 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh, maybe I'm naive, but since we're getting all the details in print, why do we need the photos, too -- which, as a commenter pointed out, involve real human beings as victims who may not want them seen? I respect everyone's desire for justice, but I do have to wonder sometimes about the desire to see this stuff. It strikes me as rather prurient, like rubbernecking at the car accident.
I don't understand why the displaying these horrors to the entire world is the only way to get people prosecuted. Maybe I'm not getting something crucial here?
But as it stands, I agree that these photos should only be seen in a court of law, where at the same time EVERYONE involved from the bottom to the top should be in that court on trial.
May 29, 2009 11:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Unless it's already been posted, Scott Horton confirms this at the Daily Beast:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-29/torture-photos-depict-sex-rape/?cid=hp:mainpromo2
May 29, 2009 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
What do you think would be the status of holocaust denial if there were no public record pictures? Just selected trials with "sealed evidence" Of course, here the trials for rape don't seem to exist. One problem is that if they open the door on the anal penetration with objects, then that important aspect of the CIA program comes back to haunt, with the overlay that the CIA anal penetration also involved involuntary drugging.
May 29, 2009 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I take your point, but the world's a different, less naive place than it was when the Holocaust was perpetrated. No one really believed in "atrocities" because it had been proved that the British ranting about German "atrocities" in WWI had been largely propaganda. So yes, maybe it did take photos to "prove" that, though there were plenty of witnesses, too, in the troops that liberated the camps, so we'll never know how necessary the photos were to convince the rest of the world. Some people just aren't going to be convinced no matter what, and they still aren't, even with photos, as we all know.
I'm thinking about an article I just read about the photos that are all over the Internet of the teenage girl dead in a car accident, which had been leaked by a state cop who responded to the scene. Nearly-decapitated head hanging out the window, etc. These things are all over the Web and people are drooling over them, making ugly comments, and the poor family is afraid to even surf the Web anymore. Can you imagine how the sickos of the world will use these things, while family members are around to find out about it? And if there are photos of children being sexually tortured, well, we NEVER would release such things here in the U.S. outside of court. It shouldn't be different for victims in Iraq.
JM2cts, I think it's something to consider in all the debate and calls for "Justice" that can somehow only be attained by splashing these things all over the Web.
May 29, 2009 12:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
junkmailqueen:
Your comments will only begin to make sense when these pictures appear in a court of law.
So far, they have not and the perpetrators are still walking around free to perpetrate again.
June 1, 2009 8:50 AM | Reply | Permalink