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The "Fatal Attraction" Method Of Debt Collection
Remember James Ricobene, the suburban Chicago man who fell behind on his Mercedes payments and found a threatening wall post on his daughter's MySpace page a few weeks later? Yeah, we thought that was bad, but some of you had much worse tales from the collection agency annals.
But the tale of Phoenix's Jennifer Dicks and her delinquent Chevy Cavalier is so beyond we fully expect Lifetime to option the story for a film. Last year Dicks (allegedly) bought a Chevy Cavalier with a loan from the Auto Financing Network, a local auto loan company that claims to approve 100% of applicants for loans. AFN's website claims its Top 3 Priorities of 2008 are #1 Treat Customer Right #2 Treat Customer Right #3 Treat Customer Right.
A new motto for 2009 might be in order. ("Treat Customer Like Psycho Ex-Girlfriend"?) In a lawsuit filed against the company in an Arizona superior court Dicks claims the collection agency went so far as to buy the url that matches her name and create a "Jennifer Dicks isn't paying for her Cavalier!" website.
In January, the complaint says, Dicks got a call from an AFN representative named Tiffany informing her she was two months behind on her payments. She made a payment, but her car was repossessed five days later. When she returned to AFN lot to retrieve it, she was told her payment hadn't gone through and that the company had managed to repossess the car quickly because they'd hidden a GPS tracking device in the car.
In early April Dicks fell behind on her payments again. This time, the lawsuit claims, AFN registered the URL to Dicks' name and created a site titled "Jennifer Dicks isn't paying for her Cavalier!"
And that's when the relentless text message campaign of shame began. On the other side of the phone was someone identifying himself as AFN President Michael Fischer, who started, innocently enough, by (allegedly) imploring Dicks to "Call me." Gradually he became more desperate. Here are some (alleged) highlights from the dozens of texts quoted in the complaint, which accuses AFN of a litany of charges including consumer fraud, invasion of privacy and defamation:
April 8:
You need to call me. This has put me in a bad spot. I know you don't give a shit but I do. I need the car back.April 10:
Can you quit playing games and give me the car?April 11:
I'm 2 miles away coming to your house...are you home? Neeee the car.April 15:
You need to call me...This isn't fair to me. Do you have no soul?April 18:
All you do is lie. It isn't registered to you so call again. I wish you died when you fell off the roof. If ur not married good. He can do soooo much better.And:
LOL. I'm sure he is really good. You will need him because az allows us to call the car in stolen. Please send him this, you are fucked!And:
No you didn't or you would be so stupid. Do you actually think you get a free car? Are you that fucking retarded. You are just a loser. Don't text me.And also: ("Steve" is apparently the boyfriend/husband who could do soooo much better)
The website I'm putting up has all public records and more importantly its true. I also have pics of steve in hospital after his cycle wreck.April 22:
lol. I love you. You are acting like th victim and its you that isn't paying...so funny. Okay, got a date so see you in court."
Dicks blames Fischer's alleged effort to shame her into turning in her Chevy for causing her "sleeplessness, frequent nightmares, feelings of hopelessness, pessimism, irritability, guilt, helplessness, embarrassment, humiliation, depression, fear of answering the telephone and fear of answering the door which have all greatly impacted her personal relationships," which, um, sounds about right.
Fischer wasn't immediately available for comment, but an AFN manager was familiar with the lawsuit and assured us a call back. But according to JenniferDicks.com, Dicks still isn't paying for her Cavalier.
Josh
Zachary
My God, it sounds like criminal charges are in order here! How can they possibly think they could get away with this? Isn't it harrassment? Sounds like it may be stalking. I would be scared shitless if I were Jennifer.
(i never used to be paranoid until the GOP went completely nuts!)
I applied for a used car loan once while I was working for a GM Dealership. I didn't have bad credit, just no credit. I pay for everything in cash, and proved it, too. I'm not sure who the financeer was, but it sounds like it might be AFN. They were going to charge me 38% intrest on a car that already had over 100,000 miles.
Never-the-less, I did not buy it. What a ripp-off.
I ended up with a $250.00 SAAB from a private seller and it is one of the best cars I ever had. I don't understand why people use shady finace companies all the time. It's harder to get a car note than it is to get a mortgage!
May 1, 2009 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are several answers to this problem:
1. Do not buy a car, or anything else, you cannot afford.
2. Set up a bill-payer agreement with your bank or credit union. Payments are made on time and the bank or credit union will maintain records that the bill was paid on time.
3. If you cannot make the payments, return whatever you purchased to the seller, explain your situation and ask for new terms which you can afford, or, if you cannot afford any terms, leave the purchased item with the seller. Take a friend, or two, who can serve as witness that you returned whatever was purchased.
.
May 5, 2009 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
My God. That dirtbag lender must love Cavaliers.
May 1, 2009 1:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Turnabout is fair play. What a shame it would be if somebody put up a site called "MichaelFischerIsAStalker.com" or "AFNStalksCustomers.com"
May 1, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course there are more than a few soulless people out there who would say, "She didn't pay her bills, she deserves whatever happens to her."
May 1, 2009 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds to me like there is a huge risk of libel liability here. (IANAL)
The debtor is not a public person. A company that made a general practice of doing this sort of thing is certain to make mistakes on occasion.
I have credit agencies that claim to be owed a total of about $450 in total. Neither will ever be paid as nothing is owed. In one case I took out a zero interest loan on a washer/dryer and they deliberately 'lost' the last payment in an attempt to force me to pay penalties. I have absolutely no record of the other alleged debt and they refuse to provide documentation. Then there is the company that alleged that my deceased father in law had somehow owed money on a bank account opened in a different state.
Debt collection fraud is a large and growing problem. Many debt collection agencies attempt to collect debts they know to be fictitious.
Credit rating agencies have specific safe harbor provisions that protect them from libel suits. Debt collectors and companies attempting to collect debts directly do not.
May 1, 2009 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nissan does stuff like this. We co-signed for a car for my step daughter. They occaisnally "lose" her payment. after 30 days they call us saying it's overdue and they are going to report to the credit bureaus. We pay, (but they report to the credit bureaus anyway). We spend a month figthing them. They will finally credit the account, but only because we call them every day. I am sure they are doing it on purpose, knowing that some people won't fight it.
May 1, 2009 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right. I've had similar experiences with fraudulent "collections" and it's incredibly irritating. I had one collection agency claiming I owed $160 from a previous address in utility bills. Not a big deal, except, the utility company had no record of it, and the collection agency refused to send any documentation.
Imagine the annoyance of receiving calls on your cell phone, from the early morning to late evening, from a "collection agency" you've never heard of, demanding payment for a bill you never received, and refusing to provide any documentation, while threatening to ruin your credit. That went on for a month.
That can't be healthy for rule of law or a productive economy. Not when it's such a pandemic of fraud. Imagine how many tens of thousands of people are employed in this racket, and the tens of millions of people they harass and defraud.
It's no different than gangsters running extortion rackets in the 1920's. The entire "debt industry" needs better regulating and AGs should be prosecuting fraud aggressively.
May 1, 2009 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder what their site designers would think about this use of their work?
May 1, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
References to Jennifer have been removed from the link and now it just advertises AFN.
Personally, I would find the texts really scary and stalker-ish. The use of sexual language and comment is way beyond acceptable, and this guy is going to the hospital to take pictures of her injured boyfriend?!
Yes, she ought to pay up, but somehow I think AFN took a wrong turn on their collection methods. Hope it costs them.
P.S. AFN, what have you got against those with developmental disabilities?
May 1, 2009 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I read the complaint and she did try to pay the past due payments for the second delinquency. According to the texts, the scumbag told her it was too late and just kept stalking her. The complaint notes that this was in violation of her loan agreement with AFN.
May 1, 2009 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Naw it's still there. It's in the title of the browser window.
May 1, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I say an email campaign is in line. AFN lists its address as SALES@GOAFN.COM. Tell them what scumbags they are.
May 1, 2009 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's an interesting social-theory problem -- just how aggressive may collection agents be, and how far may their targets go in baiting or defensive counterattacks?
Is shaming unacceptable or is going to far with it the problem? How to deal with scofflaws and the like other than via the sometimes expensive court system?
May 1, 2009 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you are looking for some clarification, I think calling someone fucking retarded and wishing she died falling is way-way-way over the line.
May 1, 2009 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, not really. And that doesn't clarify since we don't know the context, what "Jennifer" may have said to bring on such casual remarks.
Frankly the whole thing looks like a setup, a hoax.
May 2, 2009 12:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Your hypothesis does not work. I worked as a professional on a customer service line. Some of the customers were quite nasty and downright obscene. Any professional knows that you have the option of telling the person "That is inappropriate. Stop or I will hang up."
I would be fired if I did otherwise.
As far as your hoax theory, this girl filed a lawsuit. Is that fake too?
May 2, 2009 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
That the guy was unprofessional does not mean that we should ignore any provocations, if we are playing jury here.
I have not seen the lawsuit, but I suppose people can create hoaxes built around real lawsuits or grievances, and to create false evidence trails to support or embellish lawsuits, right?
May 2, 2009 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um. I am an attorney who used to deal with debt collection practices. This is really hard, probably, for the lay person to understand, but there is no less legalistic way to put this, so I will just go ahead and give you the legalese on this. This company, as we lawyers say, is fucked. I can't even begin to count the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act violations in this, nor the violations of Section 5 of the FTC Act.
In the words of Mayor Vaughn, I want these paint-happy bastards caught and hung up by their Buster Browns.
May 1, 2009 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a good collection story. We have been harassed over the phone for months, by a collection agency, who decided that someone who they were after (and who had the same last name as my wife) lived here. They called all the time, even using the logic-defying tricks like: "If you don't hangup, you are acknowledging being 'John Johnson', who owns money". They were "talking" to our answering machine at the time. After a couple of months, I started picking up, trying to convince them they had the wrong address, phone, person, everything. I don't think it really helped, but they did eventually got tired of it.
May 1, 2009 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dimitry,
The debt collection agency that left that type of message on your answering machine has broken the law. For privacy reasons, all they should have done was leave a message like this: "Hello this Mary Smith leaving a message for John Doe. It's important that you call me back at (123)456-789 at extension 1011. Thank you." Notice that even though the the debtor's name was mentioned, what it was for, was not.
May 1, 2009 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
It sounds like AFN has broken the Fair Debt Collection Act and that's a no no. I say this as someone who works for a collection agency/law firm.
May 1, 2009 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
It sounds crude and childish on the part of the lender, but it isn't much different than pasting a wall of shame comprised of bounced checks behind the register of a 7-11. Ultimately, sadly, how self-centered and irrational are we as consumers to think we are entitled to have stuff we don't/can't/don't want to pay for??
May 1, 2009 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
If AFN really wanted the car back, they could simply take it. They don't want the car. The market is shit and I imagine they aren't motivated to a) repossess the vehicle, and b) sell it at a loss.
They're going to keep this girl on their books for as long as they possibly can.
Such a low-rent move in so many different ways...
May 1, 2009 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
How could they take the car if it was in a garage?
May 1, 2009 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
How do you know it was in a garage? Just curious.
May 2, 2009 7:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
There seems to be a rather bone headed piece to this saga that is being overlooked.
AFN registered a domain with a customer's name to harass said customer and simultaneously advertise their loans. Who in their right mind would go to a site with the main page titled "Jennifer Dicks isn't paying for her Cavalier" and decide "hmm, these AFN people sound like straight shooters - I want a car loan from them!"
It's not quite comparable to an home security company breaking into your house, stealing your TV and leaving a brochure and business card behind. But it's close.
I'm astounded. Palin/Fischer 2012!
May 1, 2009 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Am I nuts, or is www.jenniferdicks.com now forwarding to this very TPMMuckraker post?
Could it be that AFN thinks this is good press? WTF?
May 1, 2009 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Too funny, it does come right back here. That's a change since earlier in the day. I guess the heat is on. Not to be too unkind, but I hope it gives them knots in their stomachs all weekend. And cramps in their guts. Pounding headache would be OK. They might even be worried they were getting the piggy flu.
May 1, 2009 7:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
If they actually wanted the car back, all they had to do is send a tow truck and retrieve it.
The fact that they know where the car is and don't actually repossess it speaks volumes.
I would, of course, establish a competing web site aimed at the 'President' of this fly-by-night company and post e-mails that would make HIS look like entries in a Sunday Easter Program from my local Catholic Church.
May 1, 2009 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
How could they get the car if it's in a garage?
May 1, 2009 8:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again, how do you know it was in a garage?
May 2, 2009 7:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, this is actually pretty bad-ass.
Somebody has gotten into Michael Fischer's GoDaddy account and set up the site to load this TPM article in an iframe. Thus, anybody who goes to the website to read about how she hasn't made her car payments instead sees what a jackass Fischer is. Very impressive!
May 1, 2009 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey everyone. This is Jennifer. I am the one Michael Fischer is going after. I only saw this after going to www.jenniferdicks.com I have no idea how someone got the lawsuit info and managed to link one site onto this one. I check this everyday because he threatens to put pictures on me on here. Michael Fischer knows exactly where I live. I even gave him my new address. He never once knocked on my door. I have a total of 35 saved text messages from him on my cell phone. I found out he is being investigated on odometer fraud. According to the title of the car, it has 120,000 and some odd mileage on the car. To this day, there is 124,262 miles on the car. I had the car for over a year. After many trips to California and other places, I am sure I put more miles on the car than that. I thought about creating a website about this guy, but I have better things to do with my time. I will get him in the court room. By the way, AFN has been sued at least 5 times. Check Maricopa county superior court records.
May 1, 2009 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whoa. Meta.
Anyway, two thoughts. One, I would make sure the FTC and the Arizona AG's office learns of your dilemma. They may be interested in stopping this.
Two, and I say this with all due respect, but pay your fucking bill. Again, I said that with all due respect.
That is all.
May 1, 2009 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lars, according to a poster above, the complaint details that she did try to pay but Mr. Fischer told her it was too late.
May 2, 2009 7:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
How many of those 35 text messages did you reply to? I mean, seems like you bailed on your payments, did you then proceed to ignore all communication, hoping it would just blow over?
May 1, 2009 9:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I also discovered that "her" website refers us back here, but did a little digging and discovered his email address. So I sent the following message. Please feel free to copy it over your own name, if you wish.
Dave
PS: I really do have a relative there.
To: SALES@GOAFN.COM
Subject: Should I refer someone to you?
Dear Mr. Fischer:
I note that your website has the following commitment:
TOP 3 PRORITIES OF 2008
#1 Treat Customer Right
#2 Treat Customer Right
#3 Treat Customer Right
That sounds very promising.
I have a close relative who lives in your area and I wonder if I should refer her to you?
On the other hand, I have just become aware of an allegation that you have corresponded with a previous customer, which provides these quotes from text messages you allegedly sent her.
April 8:
You need to call me. This has put me in a bad spot. I know you don't give a shit but I do. I need the car back.
April 10:
Can you quit playing games and give me the car?
April 11:
I'm 2 miles away coming to your house...are you home? Neeee the car.
April 15:
You need to call me...This isn't fair to me. Do you have no soul?
April 18:
All you do is lie. It isn't registered to you so call again. I wish you died when you fell off the roof. If ur not married good. He can do soooo much better.
And:
LOL. I'm sure he is really good. You will need him because az allows us to call the car in stolen. Please send him this, you are fucked!
And:
No you didn't or you would be so stupid. Do you actually think you get a free car? Are you that fucking retarded. You are just a loser. Don't text me.
The website I'm putting up has all public records and more importantly its true. I also have pics of steve in hospital after his cycle wreck.
April 22:
lol. I love you. You are acting like th victim and its you that isn't paying...so funny. Okay, got a date so see you in court."
What would you suggest that I do?
David E. Brown
May 1, 2009 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh one more thing, Steve and I are getting married May 3, 2009. 2 more days!!!!
May 1, 2009 8:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
So you have enough money to throw a wedding, but can't seem to find the money to pay for the car you refuse to return.
Sounds like you might be thief with absolutely no sense of decency, upset that someone is on to your 'free car' trick.
May 1, 2009 9:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dude... this is a rough economy.
I'm sure you've missed more than one payment in your life.
Missing payments does not justify the things this company did. According to the article she did try to set things right with the company more than once.
Furthermore by getting married she probably gets better tax treatment and healthcare benefits.
May 1, 2009 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ummmm..."getting married" doesn't mean throwing a bust-the-bank-account wedding celebration. When I got married, it only cost the minimal license fee.
Seems like you're pissed off because of reasons Way beyond just this woman's story.
I'm just sayin'....
May 2, 2009 3:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds more to me like you are rushing to judgement, JT. She missed 2 payments, that's what, 60 days? Made a payment, and they repo'd the car anyway? For being 1 month late? That's insane.
Now she is behind again. So you're happy to call her a thief? What the heck? How simplistic is your world? Not every missed payment is evidence of criminal intent, JT. If she was really intent on getting a car for free, she wouldn't have made any payments. I know the sanctimony feels good, but dude, calm down with your rush to judgement.
May 2, 2009 7:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
BTW, how did someone get the lawsuit and link a different site to www.jenniferdicks.com?
May 1, 2009 8:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
TPM only reports... So I doubt anyone here would know.
So either someone hacked the site or somebody at AFN redirected it here.
May 1, 2009 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't really see Fischer doing that. It just makes him look worse. Which he is but whatever.
May 1, 2009 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's nothing. Usually when I click onto this site, it redirects me to David Kurtz's facebook page (what's on David's mind? "I like puppy dogs and cheese."). Weird.
May 1, 2009 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seems as though Mr Fischer has gotten creative. The site 'jenniferdicks.com' at this moment is nothing but a frame that includes this very article. A 'whois' lookup shows that one "Michael Fischer" in Phoenix AZ registered the site on 15 April this year. He only paid registration for 1 year ... guess he figured all would be settled by this time next year. But I'd say he doesn't employ much of a web design staff, else surely one of them would have told him how to forward the site rather than just plugging in a frame.
May 1, 2009 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stupidity compounding: Apparently Mr. Fischer is a little fuzzy on copyright law too. I'm not a big fan of DCMA and related law, but I'm still smart enough to know that posting TPM content onto his site involves legal risk. Maybe he wants a pissing match with the liberal media ("censored by TPM!"). Who knows?
Remember folks: he could do so much better.
May 1, 2009 9:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
This might be a weird area of the law. He isn't exactly "posting TPM material" on his site; rather, he's using a browser trick that makes the content available at his site. It might also fall under Fair Use, since the content in question refers to him.
May 1, 2009 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm all for fair use, but posting a complete work (ie, a webpage) under your domain (regardless of the code used) is outside the most generous definitions of fair use. Criticism, satire and adaptation are one thing; but that's not what we're looking at.
May 2, 2009 1:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hope you removed that GPS device.
May 1, 2009 9:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
If I break into someone's house and rob them, then experience 'fear of answering the phone or door' because i robbed someone and I might get served, then I guess that just comes with the territory.
The guy is a dick. Yep. But I fail to see how that somehow excuses Jennifer's douchebaggery, which seems to have occurred FIRST. She rips him off, he flips out, suddenly she hasn't stolen a car?
She stopped making payments, and refused to return the car. It isn't really anymore complicated than that. Cars are expensive, you might've noticed, and stealing one deprives the seller of very real $$$.
May 1, 2009 9:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
No business relationship justifies this, particularly the sexually-toned abusive language. If the car is due to be repossessed, there are companies that do that. If it's stolen, then it's a police issue.
May 1, 2009 9:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
So she should pay for the car. So what? He's a lender, and he's entitled to do a lot to recoup his money and/or property, but he stepped way over the line. Given that we're already at the stage of litigation, shouldn't paying for the car be a "your lawyer talks to my lawyer" matter at this point?
May 1, 2009 11:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for playing, JT! Let's review the actual complaint, shall we?
Quoting from the complaint, items 63-65:
So, I know you've already made up your mind. But, um, it looks to me like there is another side to this story. If the allegations in the complaint are true, then she tried to catch up, and Mr. Fischer wouldn't let her. Wanna rethink your conclusions, JT?
May 2, 2009 7:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
She has a valid counterclaim against them and therefore she doesn't owe them anything. Please stop criticizing her for not paying that which she doesn't owe. If the loan company doesn't believe her, the judge will be happy to explain it to them (at their expense).
May 2, 2009 12:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
I got the following reply to my e-mail:
Hi David,
This is not Mr. Fischer but I am a sales representative. I think your best option is for your friend to find a vehicle they can afford and that's practical.
There are many quality dealerships in the greater Phoenix area. I am sure any would like the business. Have her shop around. We specialize in "no credit checks." Our customers typically have credit scores in the 400's.
Good luck!
GFY
cid:bottom@5601f4aa7086b7553c1ce7dfb0936ae0
May 2, 2009 1:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
The real question is, is this some rogue collector or is it someone following orders?
May 2, 2009 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
JT = Michael Fischer
May 2, 2009 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
That seems likely.
May 2, 2009 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, that was my take, too. He's just taking this *way* too personally.
May 2, 2009 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
This guy, "Jennifer" obviously has an asshole with nothing better to do than waste her valuable precious time. There are just some people in life-who want to make & twist things around into something they're not. Not lawful, not reality either. By all means, she has a legitamate lawsuit on the guy whether he believes in his "concocted" existence or not. Truth and reality are two different things; and when playing with fire- truth always takes precidence no matter how "much" someone would like to believe minds otherwise. Point is-don't go chasing waterfalls, please stick to the rivers and the lakes that you're used to. Or ghettos in this case. He should just give that bitch a call here# 214-874-2992 if he needs someone to pick up on. I'm sure Tijuana would have a much better offer for this asshole; Put him right back into the dirt garage he left.
May 2, 2009 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your comment is incomprehensible.
May 2, 2009 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I got a couple months behind on my car payment. The bank practically begged me to work out some type of payment plan but I knew I wouldn't be able to keep the car under any reasonable repayment schedule.
I simply asked them when would be a good time to return their collateral and proceeded to do so. I'm sure they will sell the car and charge me whatever (if any) amount is left owing. What they will not be able to do is to add hundreds or thousands of dollars to the amount for repossession and collection fees.
Enjoy.
May 3, 2009 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Debt collector harassment isn't just unfair, it's illegal, and this woman is owed $1000 in damages by the collection agency under the federal Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. This woman wasn't a deadbeat, she was in financial trouble, and was trying to work it out...like so many people today, many for the first time in their lives. If anyone is getting calls from debt collection agencies, it's important to know your rights and how to handle them, because their bullies and their tactics are just getting worse: http://www.stopcollector.com has a great amount of information about this subject.
May 19, 2009 10:36 AM | Reply | Permalink