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The Newburgh Four -- And The Goverment Mole Who Betrayed Them
There's little doubt the bumbling would-be bombers went far enough with the plot to demonstrate that they had the intention to commit terror, and for that they'll pay the price. But the whole tale comes off perhaps more as a sad glimpse into the lives of a loose group of aimless and obscurely embittered Americans than as a dire illustration of the threat of home-grown terrorism.
Based on reports in the New York Times, Post, and Daily News, and the Associated Press, here's what we've learned about five men at the center of plot:
David Cromitie, 44
- Described as the ringleader of the plot, Cromitie has spent 12 years in prison, most recently for selling drugs to undercover officers behind a school.
- During his last two incarcerations, he changed his listed religion from Baptist -- the faith in which he was raised -- to Muslim. After getting out of prison two years ago, he told relatives that he had converted and his new name was Abdul Rahman. His mother says that when he visited a few years ago, for the first time in 15 years, and told her of his conversion, she told him: "Get out of here."
- He told the informant last year that his parents had lived in Afghanistan before he was born, and that, thanks in part to that personal tie, he was angry about the US killing of Muslims there. But his mother now says neither she nor his father, who left the family when Cromitie was a young child, ever lived in Afghanistan. Police now think Cromitie was lying to boost his "terror cred."
- A relative of his girlfriend says: "He was always making up big-time stories. Big whoppers about everything. He would just lie for conversation."
- He would host the other three men on the "creaky porch" of his Newburgh home, drinking and barbecuing.
- He admitted in court yesterday that he had smoked pot before the bust, and smokes "regularly."
David Williams, 28
- David Williams had lately grown a beard and started to read the Koran on slow nights at his steakhouse job.
- After buying a gun for $700 from a man he described as a "supreme Blood gang leader" for use in the plot, he told the informant that he would have shot the gangster and kept the money had the two men been alone.
- Prosecutors said he was "bragging, boasting he'd shoot anyone who tried to stop him" from carrying out the plot Wednesday night, and that he said he was looking forward to watching news accounts of the attacks.
- He suggested that the men refer to the synagogues they intended to destroy as "joints."
- He once told the parole board he dreamed of being a chef.
- He has a 7-year-old daughter and a newborn son. He had recently moved to Newburgh from New York City where he had been studying computer science, to live with his mother and help care for his younger brother who was dying of cancer. "David's a very sensitive man," says a longtime friend. His girlfriend described him as "a beautiful person in-and-out."
Onta Williams, 32 (no apparent relation to David)
- At a 2003 sentencing, Onta Williams' lawyer said he had been addicted to cocaine since he was a teenager.
- While the men were plotting the attack, he said that since the US military is "killing Muslim brothers and sisters in Muslim countries, so if we kill them here with I.E.D.'s and Stingers, it is equal."
- His uncle said that he was "brainwashed" in prison by converted Muslims, after his mother died and he became embroiled in a custody battle with his ex-wife.
- He used to enjoy singing and doing impersonations. But his sister now says: "Right now, to me he's, like, the dumbest person on this Earth."
Laguerre Payen, 27
- Maybe the most pathetic of a pathetic bunch, Payen was unemployed and took medication for schizophrenia. A law enforcement source said that on Wednesday night, Payen "was off his meds - needing to be particularly crazy to do the deed." He was hospitalized after the arrest.
- His lawyer said he is "intellectually challenged" and has "a very low borderline" IQ.
- A cousin said his mother is also mentally ill, and his father is dead. She said doesn't think Payen knows how to read.
- A recent visitor to his apartment said it contained bottles of urine, and raw chicken on the stovetop. Elsewhere it was described as a "filthy crack den."
- He had previously served 15 months for assault, after driving around the Orthodox-Jew-heavy town Monsey, firing a BB gun out of the window. He struck two teens, and also snatched two purses.
- He was supposed to be deported back to Haiti, but an immigration judge stayed the sentence, because he was judged insane.
The Informant
- An upstate motel owner, identified by the New York Post as Shahed Hussain, 52, he became a government informant in 2002, after he was busted for helping immigrants cheat on drivers tests while working as a DMV translator. He was hoping to win leniency in his sentencing and avoid being deported to Pakistan. (It's unclear how the Post got Hussain's name. A spokeswoman for the US attorney's office told TPMmuckraker it was not released by the government).
- He started showing up at the Newburgh mosque, where all four men attended services, around 2007. An imam at the mosque said he invited other worshipers out for meals, and talked about Jihad. "There was just something fishy about him," said the imam, saying that some members "believed he was a government agent."
- The imam also said he had been told that Hussain offered at least one member of the congregation a substantial amount of money to join his "team."
- The owner of a local restaurant (either Denny's or Danny's -- reports differ) where the Newburgh Four would regularly eat rice and beans said that a few months ago, a fifth man starting showing up. He appeared to be of South Asian descent and would usually pay for the meal. The restaurant owner said he thought the man was the boss.
- This isn't his first sting operation. A few years ago, he posed as an arms dealer who had sold a shoulder-launched missile to be used to kill a Pakistani envoy. Two Albany men, Mohammed Hossain and Yassin Aref, helped him launder money from the supposed sale, and were convicted and sentenced to fifteen years in prison.
It's easy to laugh at this gang of goons -- and we've done our share of that. But, frankly, it's also hard not to feel some compassion for what looks like a group of struggling, credulous, under-educated men, existing on the fringes of society, who lacked the intelligence or willpower to avoid getting taken in by a government informant anxious to mitigate his own situation, and by their own vague understanding of radical Islam and the hole it might fill in their lives.
And as for what this might say about the threat of home-grown terror, it's almost reassuring that the biggest terror bust we've seen in a while has this sad-sack group at his center.
Josh
Zachary
Can someone tell me how Stinger missiles are available to buy in New York?
Which one of these dolts was going to figure out how to aim it, or was that the informant's job?
May 22, 2009 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
They're not really Stingers, there Stingler missiles, half the price, sold out of the trunks of cars. Tell them you know Sammy, and they'll make it 60% off. Same guys that sell Prata purses and Rolnex watches.
May 22, 2009 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
But will they deliver them with the pizza when it is time to storm the base? It is importatn to our plan that the pizza and missiles arrive on time.
May 22, 2009 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
It may be a rocket, but aiming it is not rocket science.
May 22, 2009 12:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
FM 44-18-1 would disagree with you.
May 22, 2009 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I think you actually do need to know what you are doing with a Stinger. It is true that it is largely autonomous, but you do need to know how to arm it, how to use the sight and how to power up the missile with a special chemical battery. For example, the first instances of Stinger use by the British SAS during the Falklands war were apparently unsuccessfuly (according to Wikipedia), due to their unfamiliarity with the charging procedure. On the other hand, Afghanis seem to get up on the learning curve pretty quickly. Most of sophisticated weapons systems are made to be operated by trained alert personnel, not stoned convicts. I had an opportunity to hold an inert one, and it is nice and small and easily handled. Operating one in a way that results in a kill is a different story.
It is difficult to get any working MANPAD system unless you are connected in the international weapons black market. These guys would obviously not have a clue as to where even to go to "buy a Stinger" or anything equivalent. I have heard a radio program setting up a piece on the "terror plot" with an alarming declaration that the four were able "to buy a Stinger missile in Connecticut". As if there is a special mall next to some cheesecake factory restaurant where you go to buy one...
May 22, 2009 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's certainly what's bothering me about these stories so far. Where did these sad sacks get the money? A Stinger is not going to be sold by anybody but the FBI for less than $10k and probably twice that, or more! One of the "terr'rists" bought a gun for $700? The same crowd who were mostly eating beans and rice at Denny's or Lenny's, or were convening on a "rickety porch" for beer, barbecue and bullshit? I guess they must have cartel connections, or maybe they "ran into" a former arms dealer who took care of ALL their needs.
Interestingly, the provocateur er, I mean informant! had some previous experience with such commodities: This isn't his first sting operation. A few years ago, he posed as an arms dealer who had sold a shoulder-launched missile to be used to kill a Pakistani envoy. Two Albany men, Mohammed Hossain and Yassin Aref, helped him launder money from the supposed sale.
I guess he had it laying around in the rec room and the FBI weren't satisfied that he was an upstanding enough citizen to prevent deportation so, - Once more into the breach! So to speak. Well, I'm certainly grateful to the authorities for keeping us safe! At least, after September 11.
May 22, 2009 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know that is nonsense. The Stinger Store is at least a block away from there. You can't miss it though - look for the red lighted rocket shaped sign in front.
May 22, 2009 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, I must have driven by that sign dozens of times! I thought it was the S.A.M's Club Emporium - my bad...
May 22, 2009 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
How many Police or FBI "informants" have a reason, such as mitigated charges or reduced sentences, to act as an inverse Diogenes, in search of some miscreants to foist a scheme on that they’d never do on their own? As Rachel Maddow stated on her show, it reminds her of the Tom Cruz movie Minority Report, where investigators arrested people before the crime because a soothsayer had a vision.
May 22, 2009 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
These guys are a far cry from the Liberty City clowns. In Liberty City, it was all talk and hustle. In this case, though, they actually went so far as to plant what they thought were explosives, aiming to kill a whole bunch of people. I truly do not see the benefit in attempting to belittle what they planned to do.
May 22, 2009 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
True; people who are crazy but not "serious terrorists" can still do a lot of damage. It's not unlikely that without the informant to give them "bombs" one or more would have eventually shot some people. But then we've come to treat suicidal shooting rampages as everyday events rather than "terrorism" so it's not such a big deal. Oy.
May 22, 2009 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think this is the key point. These guys are really down-and-outs, one with serious mental illness, the rest sort of careening through life, a real group of morons. But they were willing to plant bombs in front of a building. Very different from the liberty six. with those guys it was never clear to me that they were really doing more than humoring the informant.
May 22, 2009 9:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Josh,
I wonder what the highest school grade each of these people and the Liberty gang reached. I'm sure there are no PhDs in either crowd. The udereducated/unsophisticated are easiily manipulated and conned, just look at the Rush Limbaug/Hannity fans.
There's no doubt these are dangerous people, but without the provocateur leading them into terror plots the most they probably ever would have done was imagine it. Where would they ever get the money and connections to purchase the items they were going to use?
As an analogy, I posted this somewhere else:
NY Times front page;
FBI BREAKS UP TERROR PLOT
arrests Moe, Larry, and Shemp in undercover operation.
May 23, 2009 12:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I personally am not belittling "what they planned to do."
I'm scoffing at a government "informant" who is an illegal alien trying not to get deported and stirring up a bunch of criminals who had "converted" in prison.
This is NOT what Cheney has supposedly been "keeping us safe from." This is more like what Ridge used to use to drive up the color on the alert scale when Democrats started to make points.
They give someone a motivation to manufacture these "plots" and then pervert what happened to try to make it look like there are serious terrorist cells in this country, all liked up together with bin Laden.
Face it -- this is manufactured "PR" type crime.
May 23, 2009 2:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Cal Gal
excellent post.
May 23, 2009 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
As much as I Love TPM, I was getting concerned about everyone here so immediately jumping on the meme that these guys were too dumb to cause any damage. Of course it is a sad and tragic story and almost seems almost to involve entrapment. But only almost. They did have the intent and capability to kill a significant number of people in the name of a movement they became converted to in prison and this sort of phenomenon is a serious problem that we liberals should not dismiss so easily.
May 25, 2009 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is great journalism.
I wish more journalists would profile and especially highlight the "informant" and his motives.
These guys received a little influence in prison - went to a mosque and met the informant who needed to boost his "creds" so he would not be convicted or deported. The fact that these guys were personally messed up enough to be convinced and try to carry it out is very bad - but it doesn't sound like they would have thought up this elaborate plot on their own - without the "informant."
from NY Times - "“Sadly, this is just a reminder that peace is fragile and democracy is fragile and we have to be vigilant all the time,” said Mr. Bloomberg, who along with Mr. Kelly..."
That garbage statement from Bloomberg and Kelly sounds like Cheney-speak. It's like the Iraq War lies all over again - if there is no threat there - we will create one to scare you - and you will then have to let us continue to wiretap you and Patriot Act you.
May 22, 2009 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great journalism? No. I read most of these details in the New York Times yesterday. He just packaged the same facts and then drew a few more conclusions from them than the Times did.
Nothing wrong with that, and I agree with the conclusions, but it isn't actually journalism.
May 23, 2009 6:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
> it's also hard not to feel some compassion
Nope. It's easy to feel zero zilch nada compassion. They are self-made clowns.
May 22, 2009 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously wtf?
Bombs intended to maim and kill innocent women, children, men, elderly, babies ... Cruel sickos.
But luckily stupid sickos.
May 22, 2009 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Self-induced schizophrenia? That's a new one to me.
The guy is hospitalized now which is good. The others are jackasses and wouldbe killers so they have to pay a price for that.
How many people down and out people in this country could be convinced to do some crap like this? It seems from the story that these guys weren't planning anything until the government's guy came to town.
May 22, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who set this whole thing up do you think? To break the day of the vote to close Gitmo and right before Blunderdick and President Obama give dueling national security speeches?
May 22, 2009 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
stanley, guess i should have written: "it's hard *for me* not to..."
May 22, 2009 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not know about feeling compassion.
I do know I feel safer knowing the FBI, CIA, and Military are on the job foiling these amazing threats ever since the real one they all missed took 3,000 lives.
May 22, 2009 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Most of these threats appear to be local misfits which may or may not do anything, but sure do like to talk a lot, and usually drink and take drugs. Most of the action appears to be fully government directed and controlled, resulting in an arrest when the "alleged perpetrators" are brought somewhere by the informant(s), to purchase something "dangerous" with government money.
I hope that our defenders actually do real terrorist investigations, in addition to these make-belief diversions.
May 22, 2009 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
"the FBI, CIA, and Military are on the job manufacturing and then foiling these amazing threats"
There. Fixed.
May 23, 2009 3:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
I dislike using the word "manufactured" to describe a terrorist plot - but this one really seems to fit that.
So the FBI, CIA and some DOJ people - are using the Cheney School of Fabricating Terror Plots and Lies to justify arrests like this . .. Oh Wait - this has been going on for 8+ years and finally, we are questioning.
Shame on the FBI and DOJ people who signed off on this ridiculous "fabricated plot" - and we need to see that Informant in Jail Now.
May 23, 2009 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
The pot prohibitionists will try to use the ringleader's confession to having toked-up as a reason to leave the laws the way they are because "pot causes terrorism".
It probably prevented terrorism in this case.
I'm glad they got caught. They could have gotten lucky and actually pulled off something big like OK City.
May 22, 2009 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Regardless of actual danger from these men, it's comforting to know - as we learned yesterday - that the federal government has renewed carte blanche to jug them up without trial and throw away the keys. And I know it's a cliche, but someone must ask: What will be the jailers' specifications tomorrow?
May 22, 2009 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey folks, these guys are pretty pathetic, for sure. But it's worth remembering that a couple of equally pathetic losers, with the help of a van full of fertilizer, killed 168 people in Oklahoma City. It remains to be seen how much of this week's plot happened as a result of the informant's prodding, but these guys, in their own way, are cut from the same cloth as McVeigh.
Peace,
Paul
May 22, 2009 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Timothy McVeigh wasn't led into his crime by an informant.
If it turns out that these four people were, then it's a different situation.
May 22, 2009 4:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure that we know that for a fact.
There was a second person with McVeigh when he rented the van, and it wasn't McNichols.
May 23, 2009 3:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. Thank you. Just because these guys don't seem as sharp as Mohamed Atta doesn't mean they couldn't have killed a lot of people. Aren't the Mohamed Atta and Bin Laden types making us overestimate the intelligence required to commit explosive murders?
May 25, 2009 11:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is without a doubt the most absurd setup,investigation,entrapment of complete imbeciles by an overzealous selfserving NYPD,FBI etc. that I have seen to date. I only hope they don't start handing out FREE bombs and stingers to everyone to see just who might use one.
May 22, 2009 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey idiots:
Anyone trying to sell you explosives or stinger missiles in the US is an FBI agent.
Get a clue.
This mostly rounds up the idiot radical demographic. My big fear is that the professionals know how to make the stuff themselves and don't get caught by stings like this.
I do think it is hilarious that Cheeny's big "Obama is making us less safe" day was interrupted by some terror-related arrests. Serves the old thug right.
May 22, 2009 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
You guys have it all wrong. Wait until Hollywood gets hold of the rights:
“Where Terror Stalks”
The Gang That Would Take Down New York:
Samuel L. Jackson as David Cromitie, the ringleader obsessed with vengeance
Denzel Washington as David Williams, an explosives expert with a personality to match
Jamie Foxx as Onta Williams, lethal with his arsenal of Stinger “can’t miss” missiles
David Chappelle as the unpredictable Laguerre Payen, his very name means “The War”!
The Courageous Men Who Stopped Them:
Dev Patel, acclaimed international star of 2009 Best Picture “Slumdog Millionaire” as Shahed Hussain, the informant who risked everything on one last chance to make things right
Leo DiCaprio as Sander Foxworth, the government agent who would spring the last-second trap that saved a million lives
Guest appearance by Tom Selleck as Dick “Shotgun” Cheney
“Where Terror Stalks” is an edge-of-your-seat, thrill-a-minute, must-see movie, the summer blockbuster sensation that gives Americans a far-too-up-close-and-personal look at what they are really up against – if they DARE TO WATCH!
May 22, 2009 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
ROTFLMAO!
May 22, 2009 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds great, but for complete multi-hundred million dollar success the movie needs Halle Berry.
May 22, 2009 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's the bestest part:
Halle Berry IS --- Michelle Obama!!
May 22, 2009 4:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Michelle can be Michelle!
May 22, 2009 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can someone explain to me how this is a "terror bust" and not just manipulation of a bunch of unintelligent poor people? Is it at all plausible that these guys would have conceived, planned, & attempted to execute such an attack without the informant's significant prodding? Because if not, there wasn't really an attack prevented, rather there was an attack plan created and then neutralized.
I find the whole thing embarrassing. The FBI can do this all day long, but all it does is keep us mired in an authoritarian culture of fear.
May 22, 2009 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
==but all it does is keep us mired in an authoritarian culture of fear.==
You make it sound like it's a bad thing... :)
A poll just released has 60% of white evangelicals supporting torture. How do you think that kind of world view gets manufactured?
May 22, 2009 3:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes.
And the "informant" was actually in a role of Mentor, being older than the others and apparently of sounder mind as well.
I have to wonder when the date for the bomb planting was set, and by whom.
May 22, 2009 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
The mentor aspect is what bugs me. It's one thing to infiltrate a gang and bring it down. It's quite another to form a gang and actively recruit into a concocted plan.
And now that you mention it, who the hell did set the date!
May 22, 2009 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Question. Was this "bust" timed to coincide with a certain speech by a certain demagogue yesterday?
Hmmmm ... nah ... that couldn't happen.
May 22, 2009 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
No. no. Won't happen til pigs fly.
But then,
Swine flew!
May 23, 2009 3:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
============================
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/22/nyregion/22plot.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp
Mr. Muhammad said members of his congregation told him the man he believed was the informant offered at least one of them a substantial amount of money to join his “team.”
==============================
The fact that the informant was offering money undermines the idea that these guys were determined to kill people without his influence (though it isn't clear yet how many of these four were paid by the informant to hang around him.)
May 22, 2009 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
How long before this is all blamed on smoking weed?
May 22, 2009 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
but wait, there's more:
now wondering if Fuller was the SAIC who originally busted Hussain
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/05/the_fbi_agent_w.php
May 22, 2009 4:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really hope they didn't pull anyone off the heavily armed white supremicist detail for this investigation.
May 22, 2009 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Re Onta Williams
"But his sister now says: "Right now, to me he's, like, the dumbest person on this Earth." "
Doug Feith will be very glad to hear that.
May 22, 2009 5:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
First Prize!! Talk about seeing the silver lining.
May 22, 2009 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
johno,
HAHHA, that comment is gold :-)
May 23, 2009 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
If this ain’t the worst mess I have ever seen parading as a terrorist attack I’ll eat some dirty shorts! The FBI and New York police long with Bloomberg should be ashamed of themselves. What these men need and deserve, more than anything else is a good ass-whooping. They should be- 3 stooges style- slapped silly and sent to bed with no crack!! Terrorist my eye, these are the dumbest institutionalized fools I have seen a hundred times pontificating about what’s wrong with the world , how to solve it and simultaneously taking a hit from the crack pipe. All the FBI had to do to stop this horrific attack was buy them some more crack. They would have been so stuck in the house smoking it they would not have been able to blow anything other than their own minds! PLEASE! Talk about a slow news day! Maybe they should have water boarded them between hits on the pipe....
May 22, 2009 6:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me get this straight. The white-supremacist meth-heads who came to Denver with rifles, ammo, and bullet-proof jackets to assassinate Obama (and probably take out a bunch of others) were harmless, and the skinhead meth-heads in Tennessee who were going to behead and otherwise kill a 100+ black folks were just some crazy kids, but these four misfits in New York are public enemy #1? Glad I got that cleared up.
May 22, 2009 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are these guys any more pathetic than others who have succeeded? Do they seem so because they are black?
I don't know, just asking.
May 22, 2009 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
They might seem a bit more pathetic than others who have succeeded, but perhaps only because they had not obtained anything truly dangerous (yet), and seemed to have only succeeded in getting what they did get because of the informant. For me, race comes into play because law enforcement was nonetheless on these guys like white on rice, but when it comes to skinheads and white-supremacists, law enforcement doesn't get as worked up: http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/imagine-if-terror-suspects-white
May 22, 2009 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
If any journalist had done any more digging than listening to a bunch of desperate-for-attention feds, they would have realized the pathetic criminals and ex-criminals who reside in this small city are fairly harmless except to themselves and between each other. They are nuisance ants and that's the extent of it. The "ringleader" had untreated/unsupervised mental problems and the IQ of a flea. How is this any proof of the effectiveness of our "war on terror"? It's more like catching someone who's skipped out on parole. Pathetically overblown nothing. Meanwhile, the US has tortured and killed and maimed and detained millions of innocents. When do these people earn the same right to defend themselves and their families and friends and fellow countrymen and worshippers that the US forces on others?
May 23, 2009 12:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Stoned, Uneducated, Pathetic, Unmedicated" etc.
An easier way to describe them is "the average Obama voter and Democrat Left Wing Nut".
How much you wanna bet the work for ACORN voter registration and election fraud as a side job.
May 23, 2009 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Knock, knock.
May 23, 2009 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
The best comment of all - pretty well sums it all up in a nutshell! Great observation.
May 27, 2009 1:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I suppose Zach thinks the Oklahoma City bombing wasn't serious, too. All such plots start the same way. I am glad the FBI has learned plenty since OK City, and it is a shame that the media is so eager to critize FBI efforts to prevent additional OK City fiascos.
And what would Zach have been saying at TPM's website if the FBI hadn't become involved and the attacks had succeeded? I suspect he'd still be critical of the FBI, only instead it would be because the FBI hadn't stopped the bombing.
Zach...increasingly I've found TPM to be losing all credibility. It's time TPM return to what it was best at: reporting on public corruption. In fact, the Grand Ol' Docket is seriously outdated! Furthermore, you missed the National Journal leak reported on May 15, 2009 for the Abramoff probe.
TPM's strength was its public corruption reporting. Since TPM pretty much stopped, I only now skim the daily postings. TPM has become dull/boring.
May 23, 2009 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
If the informant had been working for a different branch of law enforcement, he would have gotten these guys to knock over a bank or cold-call a bunch of people about phony stocks. Would have been the same deal, only without the headlines.
May 23, 2009 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh, they're far from the first terrorists to be pretty freaking stupid and who enjoy smoking pot. History is replete with terrorists exactly like them:
Top 5 Most "Intellectually Challenged Moments in Terrorist History
May 23, 2009 8:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh, they're far from the first terrorists to be pretty freaking stupid and who enjoy smoking pot. History is replete with terrorists exactly like them:
Top 5 Most "Intellectually Challenged Moments in Terrorist History
May 25, 2009 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the key here is that, though these 4 face serious criminal allegations, none of them are criminal masterminds, nor are they part of a gloabl jihad network. In the hands of an actual terrorist mastermind, they might have proven useful idiots.
They appear to be a far cry from Mohammad Atta et. al., and that's the point that needs to be made.
Politically, the danger is that these small-timers are held up as a rationale for further eroding civil liberties, and expanding the security state.
May 26, 2009 9:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exchange al Qaeda operative for FBI informant and you'll see that this is very dire indeed.
The FBI exposed a domestic terrorism vulnerability and policymakers need to address WHY these guys did it and let the courts sort out what they did.
If al Qaeda ran this operation, we would've been reading/thinking about dead bodies during the 'thrilla on the hilla'.
May 26, 2009 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink