The violent anti-Obama sentiment coming out of central Arizona managed to get still more toxic over the weekend.
Chris Broughton, the man who brought an AR-15 rifle and a handgun to an Arizona Obama rally earlier this month, says he "concurs" with his fundamentalist pastor's prayer for President Obama "to die and go to hell."
And in an interview with a local TV station, pastor Steven Anderson himself elaborated on his statement to TPMmuckraker that he would prefer Obama to die of natural causes so "he's not some martyr."
"I don't want him to be a martyr, we don't need another holiday. I'd like to see him die, like Ted Kennedy, of brain cancer," Anderson now says.
In an interview with ABC 15 outside the storefront Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe, Broughton said of Anderson's controversial August 16 "Why I Hate Barack Obama" sermon: "I concur, I think we'd be better off if God would send [Obama] where he's going now instead of later. [Obama] is destroying our country."
And when a reporter followed up with, "you're not advocating violence against the president?" Broughton, who has previously said his weapons are for defense, says "I'm not going to answer that question directly."
"I don't care how God does it, I'm not going into further detail than that," Broughton says. "It would be better now than later."
In fact, Broughton added, he moved to the Tempe area to attend Anderson's storefront church, which is an "old-fashioned, independent, fundamental, King James Bible only, separated Baptist church."
Roughly 24 hours after attending Anderson's anti-Obama sermon, Broughton made national headlines when he showed up heavily armed to an Obama event in Phoenix.
Here's the ABC 15 report:
The Secret Service has not returned calls for comment about whether it has contacted Broughton and a report that it interviewed Anderson (which he now denies).
In other Faithful Word Baptist news, a man disgusted with Anderson's prayer for Obama to die showed up to protest services Sunday. And Anderson says parishioners showed up with guns, so "people know if they come down here swinging a baseball bat, we're ready to protect ourselves."
Late Update: The Secret Service responds.

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Confound Them All
August 31, 2009 11:25 AM
Will nobody ask these jerks a simple question, in public, on tape?
Do you want to shoot President Obama?
As ego-centric as these idiot are, they might just slip and scream out "YES".
Then the Secret Service can get off its butt and do their job instead of fumbling around.
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Acewrap
August 31, 2009 11:48 AM in reply to Confound Them All
"And when a reporter followed up with, "you're not advocating violence against the president?" Broughton, who has previously said his weapons are for defense, says "I'm not going to answer that question directly.""
In other words: Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?
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ohyeathatsright
August 31, 2009 11:55 AM in reply to Confound Them All
There is no reason why the Secret Service should NOT be doing this now. Bush would have done a lot more with a lot less.
This is TERRORIST behavior, and if we allow it to permeate here, THAT'S how we lose the "war on terror".
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CranialRectalLoopback
August 31, 2009 11:46 AM
This man has threatened our President. Take him out.
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NH
September 21, 2009 12:32 AM in reply to CranialRectalLoopback
How so? I did not hear him threaten anyone.
Where were you when one of your lefties killed one of our protesters? DEAD?
He didn't talk. He just did it.
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mans_best_friend
August 31, 2009 11:48 AM
Good Christian men, one and all.
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RedMolly
August 31, 2009 11:52 AM
Please stop reporting on the inane utterings of this idiot and his ilk. It only encourages and emboldens them. The Secret Service needs to keep an eye on them, but the media shouldn't be making stars out of them.
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Confound Them All
August 31, 2009 12:01 PM in reply to RedMolly
RedMolly... "keep an eye on them"? Are you serious? This guy brought an AR-15 to a public area where the president was nearby. Do you know what that weapon can do? Its not a capgun.
In all seriousness, keeping an eye on them won't get the job done. Tossing them in the slammer, investigating them from here to eternity, all their friends, associates, emails, phone calls, anything and everything they can think of.
After Kennedy got assassinated I though the SS had shaped up. After Ford's two close calls at assassination, I realized they hadn't. After Reagan I realized the SS is just some guys in great shape that run alongside cars, escort Jenna and Not-Jenna to parties and generally do a lot of posing and not much else.
If they can't get their job description straight when a guy shows up with a semi-auto freakin' weapon to a Presidential meeting, fire them all and hire a new crew. Even Blackwater would be better.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 12:29 PM in reply to Confound Them All
The AR-15 can kill a man, just like a rock can. Once again, we're not talking about a fully-automatic, or even burst-capable weapon here.
Now, if it's been modified to be such a weapon, now we're in a whole 'nother ballpark... but then it's not an AR-15, it's an improvised assault rifle.. just like a car wired to ignite all of its gas isn't really a car, it's an improvised bomb.
And none of that is intended to excuse these nutjobs, but only to maintain clarity: the more we get the facts wrong - calling semi-automatic rifles 'assault weapons', acting like they're fully-automatic machineguns, etc etc, the more the gun culture feels comfortable dismissing us as alarmists who don't understand what we're talking about.
The first step to changing someone's mind is being credible, after all.
As for these nutjobs... sounds to me like someone was lying when he said he hoped his 15 minutes of fame were up, and didn't want to be another Joe the Plumber. All Mr. Broughton has to do if he's not lying is stop giving interviews.
And if he is lying, which he patently seems to be doing, then how can we be sure he's not lying to the Secret Service, as well? And if the Treasury cops can't decide if he's making a coded threat against the life of the President, then hell, refer the case to a grand jury, see if they'll indict.
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Powkat
August 31, 2009 12:54 PM in reply to BillMcD
If someone gets shot, that's an assault, and I don't care what you call the gun that does it. I'm pretty sure the second amendment wasn't intended to protect nutjobs who carry weapons to presidential events, especially in light of the last 45 years. I lived thru all the assassinations, from Medgar Evers forward and given this country's history of violence, I think we need to stop the practice, now.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 1:28 PM in reply to Powkat
Nor would I try to say the 2nd does protect the rights of people to bring firearms to a political event.
Strictly speaking, the 2nd allows for the right of the citizenry to keep and own weaponry, usually understood to mean long-barreled firearms, so that the States can raise a militia if they need to.
It doesn't explicitly say firearms. It says 'arms'. I own several bows (archery's a hobby), an axe (tree branches fall during storms, gotta get rid of them, and chainsaws are so loud and stinky), and a few swords (the swords look rather nice on the wall over the mantle). I could make a case that, barring any federal requirements on what sort of arms I keep in order to fulfill a call to militia service, those weapons are all protected under the 2nd.
Someone getting shot might well be felony Assault. It might also be Murder, Manslaughter, Attempted Murder, Attempted Suicide, Depraved Indifference to Human Life, Criminal Negligence, or any number of crimes. It might also be a complete accident, or suicide (which is not a crime if you're successful, after all).
So is someone getting stabbed. Or hit with a brick. Or punched, just once. (Keep going, and it becomes Battery, or Assault and Battery.) Is a knife then an 'assault weapon'? Do we ban rocks and bricks? I think you'd agree, that's getting a bit silly, no?
Categorizing a weapon by what crime it commits isn't helpful: anything with sufficient mass and/or penetrating power to be used in a criminal assault is a suitable implement for the full range of crimes up to murder.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 2:52 PM in reply to BillMcD
Strictly speaking, the 2nd allows for the right of the citizenry to keep and own weaponry, usually understood to mean long-barreled firearms, so that the States can raise a militia if they need to.
_____
Correction: the "right of the people" refers, yes, to the citizenry. But the "arms" were already, long before that, PUBLIC arms, kept in gov't-controlled PUBLIC STORES or ARMORIES.
And the WELL REGULATED refers both to the state's constitution/bill of rigthts' MILITIA CLAUSE, from which comes the phrase "right of the people to keep and bear arms," and the implementation of that by means of statute: "Militia Act".
The Founders/Framers weren't gun-nuts: they intended their gov't/s to endure "for posterity". They were OPPOSED to the violent overthrow of their CIVILIAN gov't/s, THEREFORE ensured that the miltiary would ALWAYS be "in exact subordination to the Civil Power" (Sam Adams).
That same principle is included in the "boring" part of th "Declaration of Independence" that gun-nuts don't read -- rather, tune out when it is read to them:
"(King George III) has affected to render the military independent of and superior to the Civil Power".
"Civil Power" is CIVILIAN GOV'T -- SYSTEM OF LAWS.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 3:43 PM in reply to JNagarya
And no-one has said the Framers were gun-nuts. In fact, the primary reason the American Revolution was far more orderly and successful than other colonial rebellions, or even the French Revolution, is that it wasn't a violent overthrow of 'the government'. If anything, it was a violent secession by the legitimate governments of the States from the claims of overlordship by the Crown. But the legitimacy of the seceeding colonial governments was never in question.
Taken in the larger context, it was an administrative removal of the top level of government by lower levels of government and the underlying populace, not a real 'revolution' at all. Those in power in the States beforehand were largely in power in the States afterward, as well.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 4:45 PM in reply to BillMcD
That is fairly accurate. If the definition of "revolution" is "overturning gov't," thne it was not a "revolution"; which is why it was called "War of/for Independence".
Now when will you be explaining those facts to gun-nuts who REFUSE to accept that the Founders DID NOT "defend against" gov't/RULE OF LAW, especially when the gov'ts were THEIRS, instead of belaboring the irrelevance as to what is and isn't "an assault rifle," based upon the falsehood that gun-nuts accept the truth so long as accurately presented?
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 2:44 PM in reply to Powkat
No, it is a battery, defined in law as "unwanted touching".
Assault, defined in law, is "putting another IN FEAR of battery/bodily harm".
To point even an UNLOADED gun at another person is the CRIME of "Assault with a Deadly Weapon".
Don't give ground to these sociopaths by capitulating to their effort to dismiss the result of their intent: deliberately putting others IN FEAR, which is the CRIME of ASSAULT.
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Johann
September 2, 2009 7:12 AM in reply to Powkat
Powcat:
There has yet to be any case where a gun, like you stated, has assaulted anyone all by itself:
"If someone gets shot, that's an assault, and I don't care what you call the gun that does it."
Guns do not assault people - people assualt people - sometimes using guns.
Guns are not dangerous - people are dangerous.
Quit blaming guns for the actions people take. Place the responsibility for actions where it belongs - with people.
.
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Dave Bowman
August 31, 2009 12:56 PM in reply to BillMcD
Bill, i'm sorry, but your definition of 'assault weapon' is incorrect. From Wikipedia:
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 1:16 PM in reply to Dave Bowman
Dave, I'm sorry, but a)wikipedia is still infinitely editable, and b)the political category of 'assault weapon' is, as your own quot indicates, wildly variable and inconsistent. The very inconsistency and vagueness of the term is what completely undercuts its usefulness when talking to legitimate gun owners, hunters, home-defense advocates, etc - people who truly do mean the non-aggressive reasons they give for gun ownership. There are, and I have known, a significant number of these people. Not everyone who owns firearms is a murderer looking for an excuse to shoot cops.
As I've said in other comments, the usage cited there, and the highly flawed criteria in the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, is part of the problem - the criteria included factors like 'what does it LOOK like?'. If a weapon had an external appearance similar to a military weapon, it was categorized as an 'assault weapon' under that legislation, despite not being anything of the sort. Thus, any attempt to base a consistent definition of 'assault weapon' off of the flawed criteria of the '94 ban is inherently self-defeating.
An 'assault rifle', by modern military usage, is a semi-automatic rifle capable of 2-3 round burst-fire, and sometimes even limited periods of fully-automatic fire, usually by means of a selector-switch. The AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle not capable of burst-fire, based on the template of the military's M-16 assault rifle, but it is not itself an assault rifle. It is a semi-automatic rifle ostensibly used for hunting and target-shooting.
The more we insist on using flawed terms like 'assault weapon' for which there is no accepted correct definition, and for which the closest we come to a clear definition is itself incredibly flawed and based on arbitrary criteria, the less we will be seen as informed, credible participants in any discussion regarding firearms policy by those who feel their rights are endangered.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 2:57 PM in reply to BillMcD
ASSHOLE: gun-nuts, such as you, ALREADY REJECT EVERYTHING they don't want to accept, REGARLDESShow accurate or true.
Get it through your assinine horseshit:
1. The ONLY purpose of a gun is to KILL -- REGARDLESS TYPE of gun.
2. In view of that fact, a gun is a gun is a gun.
The issue is protecting the president from harm, and putting a stop to the unacceptable armed bullying -- not, jackass, whether gun-nuts like or dismiss what is said about fucking guns.
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Dave Bowman
August 31, 2009 3:48 PM in reply to BillMcD
Bill, I am a gun owner and lifelong hunter, so i'm not just jerking my knee here;) I appreciate your response and your arguments, however, I think your definitions play with reality a bit. The 'looks like' argument may be slippery, however, the AR-15 is kith and kin to the M-16, and the full auto mod is widely known, so this is clearly not a case of a dressing up a .22 to make it look like an assault rifle. Also, what are the legitimate uses of flash suppressors and bayonet fixtures? An AR-15 makes an unlikely home defense weapon, as long guns are typically not used in this manner, and if then, a shotgun makes a more appropriate weapon. LIkewise, it's not a legitimate choice for a personal self-defense weapon, as a carry gun.
I am glad that you are here to provide rational pro-gun discourse, but I have to say also that Chris Broughton is not a good argument for the right to own an AR-15.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 6:17 PM in reply to Dave Bowman
Dave,
Yep, it's definitely a part of the whole Colt .22LR family. And it's damned easy to make it just exactly what it looks like. But when we use the overly broad terms, we're not helping our cause.
And I am with you 100% on Broughton. I'm not sure I'd trust that dishonest crackpot to own a water pistol. :/
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fkaZk0sm0
August 31, 2009 1:49 PM in reply to Dave Bowman
and the very next line which you conveniently omit is:
Whether or not assault weapons should be legally restricted more than other firearms, how they should be defined, and even whether or not the term assault weapon should be used at all, are questions subject to considerable debate as part of the arguments of gun politics in the United States.
while 'assault weapon' is a meaningless term and a purely political invention created to pass the silly AWB and ban guns that looked too scary, 'assault rifle' actually has a meaning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 3:01 PM in reply to fkaZk0sm0
THIS thread is about protecting the prresident from harm, and putting a stop to the armed bullying -- NOT about whether you asshole gun-nuts like what a particular type of gun is called.
And AGAIN jackass: gun control is intended to protect PUBLIC SAFETY from assholes such as you who DISMISSS out of hand that NOT EVERYONE IS, OR WANTS TO BE, a GUN-NUT.
And THIS THREAD is NOT intended to be a platform for those who want to lecture and jabber about guns.
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fkaZk0sm0
September 4, 2009 11:59 PM in reply to JNagarya
did your caps lock get stuck?
who is it you were saying is a nut? i couldn't hear you over all of your shouting.
why is it that wanting a discussion about guns and terminology to be factually accurate makes me a 'gun-nut', an 'asshole', and a 'jackass'??
and where on earth do you get the notion that wanting a discussion about guns to be factually accurate means i am opposed to gun control, let alone that i 'dismiss it out of hand'??
i am a rational, sensible person (not to mention a democratic socialist) and i support gun controls. but that doesn't make the AWB (and banning guns based on their appearance rather than their funtionality) is a good example of gun control. my support for gun control is based on being well-informed about guns, not being hysterical and using misleading terminology.
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JNagarya
September 5, 2009 8:30 PM in reply to fkaZk0sm0
THIS thread is about protecting the president from harm, and putting a stop to the armed bullying -- NOT about whether you asshole gun-nuts like what a particular type of gun is called.
_____
By contrast, your premise is:
"Why is it that wanting a discussion about guns . . ."
Are you D-E-N-S-E, ASSHOLE?
This thread ISN'T a discussion about GUNS; it is about protecting the president from harm, and putting a stop to the armed bullying.
If you want to jabber about fucking guns, and how poor-baby gun-nuts are so victimized by being misunderstood, start your own fucking blog devoted to that -- or take it to any of the numerous gun-nut websites on the Internet.
Again, asshole: the far-right lunatic fringe -- among whom are numerous gun-nuts -- REJECT EVERYTHING said by everyone to their left, WITHOUT REGARD FOR WHETHER IT IS TRUE, FACTUAL, and ACCURATE. That is the reality, and your view that they can be persuaded by truth, or that you will be credible with them because you know a stock from a trigger, is specious nonsense.
YOU are here to DISRUPT this thread with your OFF TOPIC jabber about guns.
AGAIN: It DOESN'T MATTER WHAT sort of guns are being brought to VOLATILE political events, therefore the finer details about the guns are IRRELEVANT. What matters -- the ISSUE -- is that guns -- REGARDLESS KIND -- are being brought to VOLATILE political events.
If you want to make the effort to "persuade" closed-mindeed anti-intellectual criminal-rationalizing gun-nuts them, then go to where THEY are.
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fkaZk0sm0
September 5, 2009 9:12 PM in reply to JNagarya
hey, i can copy/paste my previous comments in a way that isn't entirely relevant to any points ostensibly being made, too!
did your caps lock get stuck?
who is it you were saying is a nut? i couldn't hear you over all of your shouting.
why is it that wanting a discussion about guns and terminology to be factually accurate makes me a 'gun-nut', an 'asshole', and a 'jackass'??
and where on earth do you get the notion that wanting a discussion about guns to be factually accurate means i am opposed to gun control, let alone that i 'dismiss it out of hand'??
i am a rational, sensible person (not to mention a democratic socialist) and i support gun controls. but that doesn't make the AWB (and banning guns based on their appearance rather than their funtionality) is a good example of gun control. my support for gun control is based on being well-informed about guns, not being hysterical and using misleading terminology.
see?
but you go ahead and keep shouting irrelevancies and insults at people if that makes you think you're 'helping to protect the president'...
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JNagarya
September 6, 2009 2:39 AM in reply to fkaZk0sm0
1. The issue is protecting the president from harm, and putting a stop to the amred bullying.
2. Nothing anyone says, regardless truth or accuracy, will make one "credible" to the far-ght lunatic fringe/gun-nuts.
3. You are DELIBERATELY intent on disrupting this thread by talking irrevelant horseshit.
Take it to Freeperville, troll.
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fkaZk0sm0
September 9, 2009 11:17 AM in reply to JNagarya
i'm sure we should all be glad that you have appointed yourself chief of thread police to determine what threads are or are not about.
if you don't want to join the side discussion on firearm terminology as it relates to gun control, feel free to ignore it. but please, do stop trying to shout it down.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 2:54 PM in reply to Dave Bowman
You are falling for the troll's efforts to disrupt this thread and drag it into far-right lunatic-fringe gun-nut droolings.
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The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
August 31, 2009 2:38 PM in reply to BillMcD
"Assault weapon" is not a well-defined term, as far as I've ever been able to determine. The main things I'm aware of that distinguish an "assault weapon" from any other kind of weapon is a detachable magazine, intermediate ammunition and a gas operated firing mechanism. Some say selective fire is also a requirement, some don't. The lapsed 1994 assault weapons ban act didn't.
As a practical matter, whether it takes the shooter ten trigger pulls or thirty to empty a thirty round clip isn't goint to be much of a difference for anyoneon the receiving end of the rounds.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 3:03 PM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
The issue of this thread is protecting the presidnet from harm, and putting a stop to the armed bullying.
It is NOT intended to be a platform for gun-nuts to disrupt, distract from, and bury the issue of the thread.
Wanna discuss whether an assault rifle is or isn't an assault rifle? Then start a SEPARATE thread for that purpose.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 3:38 PM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
My point exactly, in fact: 'assault weapon' is too poorly-defined to be a useful term in fighting the gun lobby. By using it, we position ourselves to be more readily ignored.
And to the corpse, it doesn't matter if they were shot once, thirty times, or hit on the head with a very large rock. Dead is dead. Preventing the crime and reducing the danger from the tools are two very different fights.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 2:39 PM in reply to BillMcD
Troll "BillMcD" --
You're full of shit.
The fine details about the type of gun is irrelevant -- the far-right lunatic fringe ALREADY dismisses EVERYTHING it wants to dismiss, regardless truth or accuracy of it. Exactly as you dismiss the actual content of the Second Amendment, the first draft of which follows, because it doesn't suit your far-right lunatic fringe gun-nut intellectual dishonesty:
"The right of the people (PLURAL, as in, "We the people"; it is not, "We the individual," or, "I the people") to keep and bear arms*, shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia (NOT "individual") being the best security of a free country (NOT "individual"): but no person (INDIVIDUAL) religiously scrupulous of (AGAINST) bearing arms, shall be compelled (INVOLUNTARY) to render military service (NOT "self-defense") in person." Creating the Bill of Rights (Johns Hopkins, 1991), Veit, et al., at 12.
_____
*The Bill of Rights was drawn from existing state constitutions/bills of rights, adopted during 1776-77, 1780. That which became the Second Amendment was drawn from the MILITIA Clauses of FOUR of those state constitutions/bills of rights. Those MILITIA Clauses are the source of the phrase, "the right of the people," etc., and is usually associated, directly, with the phrase, "A standing army being dangerous to liberty,".
One of the four from which that phrase, and thus the Second Amendment, was drawn was Vermont's (framed July 2-8, 1777):
"Chapter I.
"XV. The people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State; and, as standing armies, in the time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
Note the use of the word AND: it is not "OR"; nor is there allowance for "defending against" gov't/rule of law.
As well, the Founders/Framers separated the bearing of arms by the PUBLIC institution MILITIA -- which is a MILITARY FORCE, not a weekend barbeque-and-squirrel-shoot -- and the private, individual ownership of guns. Here is the separate securing of the latter, including limitations constraining it:
"Chapter II.
"Section XXXIX. That the inhabitants of this State, shall have liberty to hunt and fowl, in seasonable times, on the lands they hold, and on other lands (not enclosed;) and, in like manner, to fish in all boatable and other waters, not private property, under proper regulations, to be hereafter made and provided by the General Assembly."
Note that it does not include "defend against" gov't/rule of law, or "self-defense".
A gun is a gun is a gun: the only purpose for a gun is to kill, regardless the far-right lunatic fringe pseudo-intellectual fetishizing of the finer points of the irrelevant.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 3:35 PM in reply to JNagarya
Dude, I know that I can't convince you I'm not a troll. You've made up your mind and that's that. But lemme point out a few things:
1)I've never made any statements about this sort of behavior being ok. It's not. The Secret Service should be >
2)You're the one ceding the field to the gun nuts. You're the one throwing up your hands and saying 'ZOMG!!! TEHY ARE ALL NUTTZORZ WE KAN NEVAR TALK TOO TEHM!!!'
Most gun owners are reasonable people, looking at the debate from their own point of view. We all do that. If you want to have any chance of changing their mind, you have to be considered a credible participant in the discussion, or they'll ignore you. That is the only reason I brought up the misnomer of 'assault weapon' and the only reason I discourage its use.
It is a gun. Its purpose is to kill. Just like every other weapon ever invented. Last time I checked, nobody here had argued against that. The expressed purpose of the AR-15 is not for killing humans, but as I also pointed out, any weapon that can kill can kill us.
You say the purpose of this thread is to protect the President? Tell me, oh alarmist raver, how a group of people sitting in front of their computers posting on the internet protects the President. At best, the purpose of this discussion thread is to discuss the article posted, and if we're very, very lucky, to have some impact on the thoughts and actions of those reading our comments.
You wanna call me a gun nut, you go right ahead. I don't own a firearm of any sort, and have been on the receiving end of a shotgun at under 5'. However, I refuse to live my life in fear. If you want to make any headway on a problem, screaming your fool head off while others attack the issue logically isn't the way to go about it.
As far as the first draft of the Second goes, yes, I'm aware of it. The first draft of the Declaration goes on at length against the evils of slavery. Neither one is the version that got signed by the respective Congress. Or, to use your words: you're ignoring the "actual content" of the Second in favor of rejected wording that is, in fact, not the ratified law of the land.
You wanna get gun control passed, fight the fight as it is, not as you want to rage against it.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 3:46 PM in reply to BillMcD
*sigh* damn html. What was saying in point 1 was that the Secret Service should be extremely close to tossing both of these idiots in the deepest hole they have, and waiting on, if anything, a prosecutor willing to put the matter before a Grand Jury to seek indictments.
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NH
September 21, 2009 12:30 AM in reply to BillMcD
Indictment? For WHAT???
Wishing something?
I don't see any crime here... can you cite one?
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 4:40 PM in reply to BillMcD
Did you NOT get the point about your gun-nutism -- the hogwash that the gun-nuts will reject the "inaccurate" but accept the "accurate" -- being OFF TOPIC?
Apparently so: that's why hyou had to yet again go on and on and on about with the same irrelevancy.
Here's a giant CLUE for you -- FOR FREE:
This is a precisely and totally accurate verbatim quotation of Article I., Section 8, Clause 15 of the US Constitution, the only modification being those two word I bold:
"The Congress shall have Power To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions."
Gun-nuts REJECT that -- not because "inaccurate" but because THEY DON'T LIKE IT.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 5:23 PM in reply to JNagarya
Well, here's the thing: define 'gun nut'?
As I said, I know quite a number of gun enthusiasts, people who own guns for hunting, sport shooting (skeet, target shooting, etc), home defense... I also know people who own guns for the express purpose of deterring violence against themselves and others, and who carry guns every day for that purpose. Would you call them 'gun nuts'? I call them my uncles... and I call them cops. I even know a few people who own and carry guns very often with the express purpose of killing someone else. I call them "John" and "Bill" (no relation), "Pete" and "Sean" and they're in the U.S. Army and Marine Corps.
And no, the true extremists, the real headcase types like these idiots in Arizona? My way won't make any more progress than yours, because they're not interested in reasonable discussion - they're afraid, and they've let their fear take charge. Just like you can't make any headway when you discuss questions of evolution with real hardcore creationists, or abortion with the absolute fringes of either side. But most of the people who are out there with guns, most of the people outright rejecting your hyperbole and vitriolic shrieking... they're not the headcases, and they're not unreachable.
And when it comes to the subject of discussing the issue w/the reasonable firearm owners I know, yes, we talk about it quite often. Some of them started off as very vocal opponents of any legislation to curtail the ownership of weapons. I've got friends in New Hampshire who were considering purchasing a .50-calibre tripod-mounted machinegun a few years back. Why? Cuz it was a neat piece of machinery to own. Especially since it was bolted to the roof of a truck of just the kind they'd been considering buying.
I talk about this stuff with friends of mine almost every day, from all over the country, both gun owners and non-gun owners. I talk with family members of gun owners. Believe it or not, most of these people are reasonable people who don't want to overthrow the government, who don't want to go on a shooting rampage. They just want to be left alone, in their own homes and communities, and not feel like people are making them out to be dangerous lunatics for owning a gun.
And believe me, every time you rant and rave about the extremist militia members where ordinary gun-owners can hear it, the language you use is important, because when you're not careful, and when you make broad generalizations, then you make them feel like you're demonizing them, and you don't want to do that. They don't like the crazies any more than you or I do. They don't like people who try to make folks afraid of gun owners. They don't like folks who get people thinking about taking everyone's guns away because those few idiots are irresponsible.
And you do make broad generalizations. I've never voted farther right than (D) in my life. I don't own a gun. My entire argument about the use of terminology has been about how to be more effective when opposing guns, and yet you call me a right-wing gun-nut. You don't convince anyone of your point that way, and you don't get anyone who wasn't already agreeing with you to listen. All you do is damage your cause by convincing people to tune you out.
So yes, I have these discussions with people about the purpose of the Second. I have these discussions with gun owners and enthusiasts. What I don't do is attack these people or treat them like my enemy when I'm trying to talk to them, because if you attack, they get defensive, dig in, and become more and more stubborn. I have these discussions all the time, and I find common ground w/people, and get them to acknowledge that yes, something needs to be done about gun violence, and the threat of gun violence, and the escalating tensions at political events.
How often do you make any headway with gun owners of any flavor?
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 5:43 PM in reply to BillMcD
"Well, here's the thing: define 'gun nut'?"
I've made that clear: one who insists the "right" to own guns is absolute -- without limitation. One who rejects reason.
"As I said, I know quite a number of gun enthusiasts, people who own guns for hunting, sport shooting (skeet, target shooting, etc), home defense... I also know people who own guns for the express purpose of deterring violence against themselves and others, and who carry guns every day for that purpose. Would you call them 'gun nuts'? I call them my uncles... and I call them cops."
That's gun-nutism: the private citizen is not authorized to take the law into their own hands -- even if it's actual law, rather than that they make up to rationalize that they want to do anyway.
I constantly see gun-nuts invoke of the Constitution in defense of their "rights" -- even when the "right" is expressly prohibited by the Constitution. Or against "infringements" of their "rights," even when such "right" -- or "infringement" -- doesn't exist.
Distinguished from that are those AUTHROIZED BY LAW to enforce the law: cops.
"I even know a few people who own and carry guns very often with the express purpose of killing someone else. I call them "John" and "Bill" (no relation), "Pete" and "Sean" and they're in the U.S. Army and Marine Corps."
And again: the military is a PUBLIC institution, regulated UNDER Constitution and rule of law. The private individual is NOT "public," and has no "right" to pretend and bullshit otherwise.
"And no, the true extremists, the real headcase types like these idiots in Arizona? My way won't make any more progress than yours, because they're not interested in reasonable discussion - they're afraid, . . . ."
No, they are not afraid. They are law- and history-illiterate, and they are arrogant -- high on the smell of someone else's cork. They simply reject other's concerns, and the rule of law, based upon a sense of invincibility, if not also infallibility.
". . . . most of the people who are out there with guns, most of the people outright rejecting your hyperbole and vitriolic shrieking... they're not the headcases, and they're not unreachable."
Right: refuting the NRA's Second Amendment lie is "vitriolic hyperbole" according to gun-nuts -- according to those who reject the LEGAL AUTHRORITY refuting same.
Meanwhile, of course, you have continued to push your gun-nutism in order to disrupt this thread and distract from the issue of it:
Protecting the president from harm, and putting a stop to the armed bullying is the issue. The concern is NOT the hypothetical "reasonable" gun-owner/-nut, if such exists.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 6:14 PM in reply to JNagarya
Ok, let's look at a few things here:
"Well, here's the thing: define 'gun nut'?"
I've made that clear: one who insists the "right" to own guns is absolute -- without limitation. One who rejects reason.
Have I insisted the right to own guns is absolute? Felons can't own guns in most states, for example. And yet, you have called me, repeatedly, a "gun-nut". So, based on that, I'd have to say: No, you haven't made that clear. In fact, what you are claiming now is in direct contradiction to your earlier statements. In fact, you contradict yourself IN THIS RESPONSE by once again calling me a gun-nut.
Would you call them 'gun nuts'? I call them my uncles... and I call them cops."
That's gun-nutism: the private citizen is not authorized to take the law into their own hands -- even if it's actual law, rather than that they make up to rationalize that they want to do anyway.
Except they're, you know, actual police officers.
I constantly see gun-nuts invoke of the Constitution in defense of their "rights" -- even when the "right" is expressly prohibited by the Constitution. Or against "infringements" of their "rights," even when such "right" -- or "infringement" -- doesn't exist.
I don't know of any right that's expressly prohibited by the Constitution. The Constitution outlines the form and function in very broad terms of the government, and the Bill of Rights ennumerates some specific rights, but I don't know of any point where the Constitution prohibits the populace from undertaking an action. The Constitution left that up to the actual laws enacted by Congress.
Distinguished from that are those AUTHROIZED BY LAW to enforce the law: cops.
Like my two uncles, the cops, that you just called gun-nuts? This is what I'm talking about when I say your generalizations and carelessness in your attacks drives people away from agreeing with you.
No, they are not afraid. They are law- and history-illiterate, and they are arrogant -- high on the smell of someone else's cork. They simply reject other's concerns, and the rule of law, based upon a sense of invincibility, if not also infallibility.
Oh yes, they are very much afraid. What do you think stirs the aggression and violent response? Fear is always the root cause of violent response. Anger is an outward manifestation, but anger itself is just a fear response. When challenged, the brain reacts with a fight/flight response. Anger is the fear reaction skewed in favor of 'fight', nothing more. When you get mad at someone for disagreeing, you're reacting to their challenging of your viewpoint, and thus (on a very primitive, unconscious, animal level, mind you) your position in the social order. When you get made at an inanimate object because it's not doing what you think it should, it's based in a tiny little kernel of 'did I screw this up? Why won't it work for me?'
The ultra-reactionary militia types are afraid. The world is changing around them and they don't feel like they have any control over their lives and their surroundings. The economy's making it worse. Why do you think these types always surface more during a poor economy? It's all fear, and nothing more.
These aren't demons, after all, and they're not automata. They're people, and they have reasons and causes for how they're reacting to the world around them. Understanding those reasons and causes may be of only very limited use when dealing with the ones we have now... but that same understanding is of far greater importance when it comes to limiting the spread of their kind of insecure fear response.
You should always seek root causes. Treating symptoms doesn't prevent a future outbreak.
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RedMolly
August 31, 2009 12:30 PM in reply to Confound Them All
So posting every sick outrageous thing they say on TPM is the better option? Because that was my point, which you seem to have missed. I'm sure these extremists are enjoying their moment in the spotlight; I'd rather we didn't give them that satisfaction.
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Confound Them All
August 31, 2009 6:39 PM in reply to RedMolly
Red.. no, I didn't miss your point. I addressed it right off. I feel your statement was unrealistic, given the history in this country of political assassinations over the past 150 years. "Keeping an eye on them" ignores the inefficiency and ineptitude of the Secret Service. Far better to get this stuff out in the open, let the citizens of the country become aware of the necrotic tissue in their system. Just as the public has the right to information about sex offenders and the right to publicize such information, we should also be informed of groups in America who advocate the death of the President. In this case, I think the media is doing us a service, even though I suspect they don't give a crap about the morality of it. Sex, blood, and fire are the Leads the media looks for.
Don't let them hide, let the sunlight show us who they are, question them, grill them on their thinking and make them declare their intentions.
Then lock them up and toss the key into the sewer.
And wow, it took a long time to get down to read your reply. I had to wade thru the all-too-common litany of nit-pickers, hair-splitters and fine-print specialists arguing about how many machine guns can dance on the head of a pin. Such discussions dilute and weaken the real issue: does society truly believe that owning/carrying a deadly firearm is more of a benefit than a drawback. I think its a lose-lose situation. It defiles my right to peace and serenity while I am in public and puts those who carry the weapons at far greater risk of injury or death than had they simply used their heads and walked an extra block to avoid trouble.
And who knows, maybe Chris Broughton is an FBI plant, there to stir up the gun nuts. Hey, its happened before. And it'd be like the FBI to shove a BLACK agent out there, fine-tuned senses of humor that the Hooverites have.
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soupson52
August 31, 2009 2:06 PM in reply to Confound Them All
I was with you til I reached the last sentence. Xe? Evil. They could DO the dirty deed themselves. Evil.
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Confound Them All
August 31, 2009 6:44 PM in reply to soupson52
Well, that might have been a little bit over the top :-)
But you get the idea. If the SS isn't up to it, dump 'em. Let somebody qualified do the job and the SS can go back to tracking down counterfeiters and bootlegged Xerox color copiers.
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Uberlib
September 1, 2009 12:05 PM in reply to Confound Them All
I suspect that Mr. AR-15 was probably wearing at least one set of crosshairs on his forehead, owned by one of the Secret Service sharpshooters that ALWAYS surround any place the president is or will be. If the nutjob made any kind of threatening move, the news that day would have been completely different. Still, I don't think anyone should be allowed out in public with his own assault weapon, semi-auto or otherwise. An AR-15 in a crowded area goes WAY beyond "personal defense," unless you suspect there are paratroopers coming for you.
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fkaZk0sm0
August 31, 2009 1:53 PM in reply to RedMolly
it is a light caliber varmint rifle.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 3:06 PM in reply to fkaZk0sm0
It is a gun, the type being irrelevant, and it's purpose is to KILL.
The purpose of this thread is to protect the president from harm, and put a stop to the armed bullying.
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3star2nr
August 31, 2009 11:58 AM
How is this kind of thing not illegal?
Isnt threatening the president against the law?
Seriously if this was the bush admin this freak would be in Gitmo by now
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 3:11 PM in reply to 3star2nr
I haven't seen ANY substantiation of the assertion that this sort of thing IS legal.
The assertions that it IS legal come ONLY from gun-nuts -- who, notoriously, don't look at ANY laws other than that which doesn't open their blinders.
A "right to carry" a gun, openly or concealed, is CERTAINLY NOT a right without countering rights -- which latter are ipso facto LIMITATIONS on the former.
Even where one can legally carry -- concealed or otherwise -- there are STILL LEGAL limits on "self-defense". And it remains an ASSAULT to point even an UNLOADED gun at another person.
But to hear it as it's so far been asserted, one would get the impression that it is a totally unrestricted "right," and "if you don't like my gun being in your face, tough shit!"
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 3:51 PM in reply to 3star2nr
It's not legal. They should be in jail. The only reticence I could understand would be that they'd hide behind 'I wasn't saying SOMEONE should do it, I was leaving it in God's hands!' and not wanting to move too quickly in a manner that gets the right-wing screaming about the President silencing dissent and attacking Christians for praying.
That said, tossing them in Gitmo would still be wrong. Immoral acts aren't rendered any less immoral by doing them to people we don't like.
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GTFOOH
August 31, 2009 11:58 AM
If this bastard's church is considered a non-profit organization, I would suggest the tax code be amended to redefine what a church is!
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azpaull
August 31, 2009 12:12 PM in reply to GTFOOH
I agree, and I hope that someone more qualified than you or I is looking into it.
Here's a post on the apparent contradictions in FWBC's profit or non-profit status, and requesting deciphering help: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/azpaull/2009/08/are-death-and-taxes-inevitable.php
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BigBadBama
August 31, 2009 3:03 PM in reply to GTFOOH
Forgive me for feeding these "they're out to get us" whack-jobs, but why should any church be tax exempt? "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" Doesn't seem that Jesus was all that big on tax exemption.
I don't mind charitable activity being exempt. But there should be a way to limit that. Because otherwise you just have what are basically corporations getting to build and expand without contributing to the public coffers. Screw that.
And the fact that this Arizona hillbilly can spout off this vile crap while not having to help out just makes me despise him even more.
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LarsThorwald
August 31, 2009 11:59 AM
Why are we giving this lunacy pixels?
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Maritza
August 31, 2009 12:03 PM in reply to LarsThorwald
I agree. I am sure that the secret service is on to this church, this pastor, and his congregation.
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ericf
August 31, 2009 12:10 PM in reply to Maritza
Was anybody on to Timothy McVeigh? Maybe so, but I'd still rather have the press shine a light on these vermin. For all we know, much as they might like press attention, that attention might make them decide they're too visible to really try anything.
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de TOQUEville
August 31, 2009 12:26 PM in reply to ericf
The whole point behind these carefully-worded public comments, is to send a dog-whistle type coded message to any 'lone wolf' out there who might want to get up to some Booth- or Oswald-style shenanigans.
Remember during last year's campaign when the KKK put out its 'endorsement' of Obama over McCain? Same thing. Likewise with the ludicrous 'white hat and tails' so-called "plot" against Obama that was "uncovered" during a police interrogation. Publicity stunts.
Giving these shitbags media coverage just helps them to get their wink-wink nudge-nudge message out there.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 3:17 PM in reply to de TOQUEville
It also results in backlash against them.
Had the mainstream media, and citizenry, been paying attention to this armed anti-Americanism BEFORE the OK City bombing, the bombing might not have happened.
But, still, there are assholes asserting the flat-out bullshit that if a gun is "misdefined," then the far-right lunatic fringe gun-nuts will "dismiss" what is said about guns by those doing the "misdefining". The contrary reality being that faro-right lunatic fringe gun-nuts DISMISS EVERYTHING out of hand that they DON'T LIKE -- regardless how accurate or true.
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DickTater
August 31, 2009 12:03 PM
And the Dixie Chicks were burned in effigy, a Corporate Boycott was placed on them nationwide, and nasty demonstrations in the street against them....because they said (to a Non-English speaking crowd) that they were embarrassed by Bush.
How lopsided can media coverage be? Behold!
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de TOQUEville
August 31, 2009 12:08 PM
Some reporter should ask Broughton how he feels about having been selected for his role by a committee of racist white folks.
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Fried Chicken Lover
August 31, 2009 12:12 PM
Hmm, I don't recall seeing an asterisk next to "thou shalt not kill" in the 10 Commandments referring to a footnote that said "however, thou may pray for thy god to have someone else do it"...
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azpaull
August 31, 2009 12:17 PM
Last week, I actually checked FWBC's website to see when they held services. I was busy dawn to (past) dusk yesterday with family stuff, so I didn't end up making the few-mile trek to his storefront to see what was shaking. Glad others did, though.
We need to keep the heat and light on them. The pros of knowing who/where they are and what they're up to outweigh the cons of giving them some publicity, IMO.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 3:22 PM in reply to azpaull
Agreed. Unless the vast majority -- moderates all -- know what is happening of this extremity, they can't object to it. Given publicity there will be backlash against these cesspool diseases and their efforts to intimidate and bully the majority.
Would arresting and jailing these psychotics violate the Second Amendment as malinterpreted by activist Scalia? Let those who believe that take it to court -- but put their asses in jail for threatening the president so they have their test case.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 3:56 PM in reply to JNagarya
I don't see how it's even a Second Amendment issue. Nobody's challenging their right to keep and bear arms, they're challenging their right to go around menacing people with them, endanger domestic stability, and advocate violent attack on (among other things) the Executive Branch of the United States Government.
Heck, just advocating the President's death would qualify under some standards I've seen advocated on the right as 'giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States of America'.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 4:55 PM in reply to BillMcD
According to the gun-nuts, everything is a Second Amendment issue.
"right to keep and bear arms"
That phrase, being exclusive to Militia Clauses, has only to do with public military institutions.
And how tightly restricted is THAT right?
The MA-Bay colony's "first" militia, the "Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company," which one cannot doubt as to patriotic loyalty, from time to time parades through downtown Boston. There is a specific provision in MA state law that requires that the guns they carry during such ceremonies NOT be loaded, and perhaps even be disabled so they cannot fire.
Their patriotic loyalty not being subject to doubt, the intent is obviously to protect public safety, even though it is probable that the members of that "Company" are not unhinged gun-nuts.
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 5:27 PM in reply to JNagarya
And their compliance with the law regarding public parading protocols is relevant to whether making veiled threats against government officials is a second amendment issue.. how?
You're the one going so far as to lump in people who don't even own guns as 'gun nuts' and insisting they can't be reasoned with. That you then cite an example of gun owners complying with public safety laws only seems to undermine your own hyperbole.
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 5:47 PM in reply to BillMcD
"And their compliance with the law regarding public parading protocols is relevant to whether making veiled threats against government officials is a second amendment issue.. how?"
READ what I wrote, then you tell me:
I'm not the gun-nut who insists that the Second Amendment protects not only the non-existent "right" to "defend against" gov't/rule of law, but also protects a "private" "right" to establish standing armies/fake "militia" by means of which to effectuate that "defending against".
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BillMcD
August 31, 2009 6:21 PM in reply to JNagarya
No, you're the one calling anyone who suggests we're better off not being hyperbolic a 'gun-nut' and then claims you've 'clearly' defined 'gun-nut' to mean something completely different.
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Verified
August 31, 2009 12:43 PM
And this has exactly what to do with the love of Christ?
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JNagarya
August 31, 2009 3:27 PM in reply to Verified
It has nothing to do with the "New Testament," let alone Christ.
The "New Testament" rendered those parts of the "Old" which conflicted with it null-and-void. But by means of "hermeneutics," religionuts find ways to circumvent the Prince of Peace's admonition to turn the other cheek.
So these psychotics are bogged down in the "Old" while hiding behind the image of Christ.
Are ALL members of this fake church so stupid they believe Christ would approve this sort of thing? Even without ever attending a church, one cannot help but pick up the fact that Christ opposed all forms of violence.
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Rich in NJ
August 31, 2009 12:55 PM
What is he the pastor of? The Church of the Psychotic?
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mjshep
August 31, 2009 1:05 PM
Truly a man of God.
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giterdone
August 31, 2009 1:28 PM
This should be the motto of the NRA
The bigger the gun, the shorter the D**k!
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GTFOOH
August 31, 2009 1:46 PM in reply to giterdone
The shorter the Duck?
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An Outhouse
August 31, 2009 2:28 PM
I have a cousin who has recently been diagnosed with a brain tumour. Its malignant and probably not treatable. I would hate to have that affliction and keep hearing about people dying from it on the news. Maybe pastor shit for brains could just STFU already.
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JoeClark
August 31, 2009 7:24 PM
If Jesus had remained in His tomb, he would be turning over endlessly in response to what is being done by Christians, in America, in His name!
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JNagarya
September 5, 2009 8:40 PM in reply to JoeClark
"If Christ were alive he wouldn't be a Christian." -- Mark Twain.
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wendy
August 31, 2009 8:48 PM
Steven Anderson has been in the news earlier this year for refusing to submit to requests/orders made by the Border Patrol during a routine checkpoint stop. There are other more recent stories in Arizona online news sites about the status of his trial but here's one from April that gives the essential background information:
http://cbs13.com/local/Pastor.Beaten.And.2.987065.html
It's hard not to wonder if Anderson wasn't being deliberately provocative when stopped by the Border Patrol.
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JNagarya
September 5, 2009 8:39 PM in reply to wendy
*It should be noted that in 1976, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of Federal checkpoints near border areas to enforce laws prohibiting illegal immigration. This U.S. Border Patrol checkpoint along Interstate 8 is in compliance with federal law.*
That includes the authority to search a person's car.
Deliberatley provocative? This pseudo-law view of the Constitution was going on during the late 1980s, and throughout the 1990s. In one instance one of these loons pulled a gun and was shot to death. Gun-nuts made him a martyr.
This guy was one step short of that nut's assertion of non-existent "Constitutional rights": refusing to register his motor vehicle, and thus going without a license plate.
A pastor? Bullshit. He's yet another wingnut both basing his self-exemption from the rule of law on, and hiding behind, "religion".
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NH
September 21, 2009 12:27 AM
Hmmm. "Wishing" someone would die of an illness is not the same as advocating violence against that person or being an accomplice in harming them... Wishes are not illegal.
On the other hand, being the only Senator that voted to kill babies that were born alive 'accidentally'... well now that's Obama being a primary enabler and accomplice to murder. Millions of them.
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NH
September 21, 2009 12:39 AM
Maybe people feel they need to carry to protect themselves against these abortion crazies?
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/09/pro-life-protester-shot-killed-in.html
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NH
September 21, 2009 12:49 AM
Did anyone mind the OVERT THREATS that were printed on the signs below?
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=612
Didn't think so.
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