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Health Reform Supporter Shows Up At Protest With Revolver
Over the weekend, yet another Arizonan came to a tea party health care protest with a gun.
But this time, it was a vocal backer of the Dems' health care reform plan.
A man who will identify himself only as Josh, pictured below, told TPMmuckraker he came with two friends to the anti-reform demonstration near the office of Rep. Harry Mitchell (D-AZ) on Saturday.
Asked why he brought the .38 revolver to the event, Josh, noting he was within his rights under Arizona's open carry law, asked, "Why not?"
"I carry a firearm with me on a regular basis, so it wasn't completely out of the norm to have it. But part of it was in response to" the recent shows of arms-bearing by anti-reform protesters outside Obama events.
Josh informed some nearby police officers that he intended to be armed at the anti-reform protest, opposing the tea partiers. The officers' responded, "'It's your goddamn right, go ahead.' Which was fairly emphatic," Josh says.
Despite bringing his revolver to the event outside Rep. Mitchell's office, Josh tells TPMmuckraker he believes fellow one-named gun-toter Chris, who came to the Obama rally in Arizona with an AR-15, "made a poor choice," but "was within his legal rights." Also, he says, Rep. Mitchell was not at the office during the protest.
Josh believes the Dems' health reform proposal is not perfect, but "the cost of doing nothing is going to be far worse."
He and his friends are discussing going to other events in the future. Will he bring his .38?
"I might not," he says. "The thing that is actually kind of discouraging is the fact that I had firearm, as opposed to why we were there" -- which was to have a discussion -- is getting the attention.
Josh
Zachary
Not a brilliant move. At least he recognized that it was a distraction from the discussion.
Though the right seems to do it because it distracts.
August 24, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
August 24, 2009 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
The right wing in this country feels that Democratic policies are going to take away their freedom, so why not show them that many liberals believe in the same rights that they do, that liberals aren't out to destroy the Constitution? There's nothing wrong with carrying a gun, and living in Arizona, you see people carrying them everywhere. This is a state where it is legal to bring guns into bars for god's sake.
Josh and I were out to support the rights of all Americans: the right to free speech, freedom of religion, the right to peaceful protest, the right to bear arms, the right to health care. We were there to challenge perceptions that liberals are just out to take, take, take from the hard-working, "real" Americans. These people are afraid, so let's show them there's nothing to be afraid of; let's show them that they don't have to cling to their guns and religion; let's show them that no one is trying to take away the things they cherish. We're all Americans, and we need to start trusting each other and working together again.
August 24, 2009 7:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
How were you treated by the anti-reform folk?
August 24, 2009 7:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Never been cursed out so many times in my life.
August 25, 2009 8:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's hilarious. Good for you guys for going despite all that!
I think the great thing is that his gun must have caused so much cognitive dissonance for the teabaggers. Half the reason most of them are teabaggers is b/c they are so paranoid about gun rights, despite the fact that Obama and the Dems are definitely not going to take their guns away. So to see someone on the other side with a gun must have made them apoplectic. Plus, if they ever really thought liberals were going to be carrying guns en masse, they might have to rethink some things.
August 25, 2009 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are AZ "Liberals" ALSO too dense to realize how irresponsible that action is?
If it is stupid for one group, it is stupid for all.
August 24, 2009 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not everyone thinks it's stupid or irresponsible to begin with. It's just a gun. Chill out. The guy carrying it has been trained by the military to fire a weapon. The protesters on the street corner were in more danger from a drunk driver striking them on the sidewalk of a major street than from his revolver. The whole debate about guns at these things is overblown.
August 25, 2009 8:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Guns are not dangerous.
It is the people carrying them who are either dangerous or are not dangerous.
There has yet to be a case where a gun stood up and shot a person all by itself.
.
August 25, 2009 9:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
But there is no shortage of children finding guns and shooting others or themselves.
No harm done, of course.
And someone posted about a recent incident in which a father dropped his gun -- it was cocked -- and it killed his toddler son.
But that sort of thing doesn't actually happen, because gun owners are perfect, so never fuck up.
August 26, 2009 3:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
How many kids die from car accidents, swimming pools or accidental poisoning from household chemicals. Do all those need to be outlawed?
Get over it; it's just a gun.
August 26, 2009 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
How many kids die from car accidents, swimming pools or accidental poisoning from household chemicals. Do all those need to be outlawed?
Get over it; it's just a gun.
_____
There are tweo facts which are predictable about gun-nuts:
1. They are incapable of reason; and being incapable of reason, or irrational and irresponsible.
Learn how to distinguish between the relevant and the irrelevant. Guns have one purpose only: KILLING.
Cars -- which are LICENSED and REGISTERED, even thugh NOT intended to KILL -- are not guns, the topic is guns, therefore cars are irrelevant to the issue: gun deaths.
"Swimming pools or accidental poisoning from household chemicals" are not guns, the topic is guns, therefore are irrelevant to the issue: gun deaths.
2. It is the attitude, "It's just a gun".
It's just a deadly weapon with only one purpose: KILLING. It is iresponsible to minimize the danger of guns in effort to bullshit others into tolerating the bullying behind that bullshitting.
The legal definition of "assault" is: putting another IN FEAR of battery/bodily harm.
To point even an UNLOADED gun at another is the CRIME of "Assault with a Deadly Weapon". So much for the irresponsible minimization, "Get over it; it's just a gun."
August 27, 2009 7:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is only ONE purpose for a gun: to KILL.
And nearly every adult has heard the old saw,
"Never pick up a gun unles you intend to use it."
And nearly everyone is aware of mass murders committed by "responsible gun owners" who owned there guns legally, and had no criminal record until the moment they started shooting.
Wearing a gun openly is known, by everyone, to be a threat. And any sane person has a right to be anxious about that threat.
Only the irresponsible bully will deny that fact.
But let's be more clear about a bully's "method": if told they are intimidating, they will dismiss that complaint based upon imposing his own rationalization onto the person who is intimidated.
By contrast, those with MANNERS DON'T ttell the person who is intimidated that he ISN'T intimidated.
What never ceases to amaze is how cavalier bully's are about OTHER'S concerns. And how little about ALL relevant laws gun-nuts BOTHER knowing. As example, merely pointing an UNLOADED gun at another person is the CRIME of "Assault with a Deadly Weapon".
And while you are poo-pooing other's realities, the legal definition of "assault" is: putting another IN FEAR of battery/physical harm. You DON'T have the right to tell others that they AREN'T intimidated simply because that is most convenient for YOUR ends.
Last but not least: every right -- including YOURS -- is inextricably entwined with RESPONSIBILITY. Until you CEASE telling others to go fuck themselves based upon your irrelevant rationalizations about their situation, you'll be insufficiently responsible to be allowed to possess guns.
August 26, 2009 3:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, you don't see 'everyone' in Arizona carrying firearms in public. Jesus Christ. We also don't roll up the sidewalks at sundown, nor do we any longer have to fear Indian raids on the womenfolk.
If you go out in rural Arizona, you're likely to see some 'townies' armed while they are gassing up or at the local grocery store.
In the city - e.g., Tempe - you rarely see someone packing heat. Many businesses like retail stores expressly forbid carrying firearms on their premises.
But the difference is that now and then you WILL see someone with a firearm in public, in an Arizona urban environment... and this seems to give the back east'ers fainting spells...
August 25, 2009 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Who better to make that point explitly than he?
All of us wish matters hadn't got to this point; and perhaps not a good idea to "respond in kind" (then again, now that the chest-thumping gun-nuts see they don't control field it'll cease). Perha[ps this is sufficent shot across teh bow of the unAmerican domestic enemies who started it.
August 24, 2009 8:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good Lord. Just stop, people!
August 24, 2009 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jerry,
agreed. Enough of this escalation and a shootout is inevitable.
August 24, 2009 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, brother! How long now, before we have a shoot out? Sorry, regardless of whose side people are on, it is NOT a good idea to bring WEAPONS to political discussions. This is all, those for and against HCR, really foolish and should stop immediately!
August 24, 2009 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
My thoughts exactly. I fear this madness is going to escalate until there is a tragedy. And the most tragic part will be that it would have been entirely preventable.
August 24, 2009 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree. It also sets them up for further monitoring by various law enforcement agencies. It wasn't a town hall with Obama present, but still gun-toting idiots are just making themselves as well as their associates, targets for further surveillance, I don't care what their constitutional rights may be or what side they are on. Someone is going to get hurt, if not killed. It's a very immature, irresponsible manner in which to try to make a point. I wonder if they even bothered to vote in the last election, or if they are just out for their own 15 minutes of fame. Don't they have anything better to do with their time? They are losers.
August 24, 2009 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
There has been a healthy eruption of backlash against this conduct, among which is a percentage of gun owners who view it -- yes -- as effort to intimidate, irresponsible, and a set-back for "gun rights".
August 24, 2009 8:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Refusing to be intimidated, good.
Escalating the tension, bad.
Just admit that was a bad idea and leave the gun home from now on.
August 24, 2009 4:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh jimminy-christmas. Cue to David Broder's "pox on both houses" column in 3 ... 2 ... 1.....
August 24, 2009 4:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, this guy just prepared the ground for a whole plethora of false equivalency arguments to be made, henceforth, whenever anyone tries to call attention to right wing violence and intimidation.
Yes, the Southern Poverty Law Center just put out a 20+ page report on increasing activity and coordination between right-wing activists and racist hate groups, but this guy came to a town hall meeting with a sign and a gun.
"Librulz do it too!"
August 24, 2009 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Packin' for the Prez.
At least he brought charts.
August 24, 2009 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm wondering what they actually say...
August 24, 2009 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
It seems that maybe these folks in Arizona are mistaking the battle about health care reform for the lead up to the gunfight at the OK Corral. My fear is that it's just a matter of time before something ignites the tinder keg and people start shooting at one another.
August 24, 2009 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe it isn't the best move, but as a gun owner and someone who frequents gun shows, I can tell you that the average wing nut honestly believes that Liberals don't own guns. It a core belief, and once and a while its good to shake them at their core.
August 24, 2009 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree.
That this is a SUPPORTER of reform would not have made news without the gun.
I'm all for matching hoopla with hoopla. That seems to be what is needed to get MSM attention.
August 24, 2009 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree too. These people have to be stood up to. It's the only language the righties understand.
August 24, 2009 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm all for this: not because I support the armed intimidation from the right or because I think we liberals should be ready to "slap leather" in response to wingnut provocation.
The reason I'm supporting that armed liberal is because it (if others join in) will reveal the insanity of allowing certifiable psychos heeled anywhere near a political debate or appearance by the president. When the possibility of leftists shooting back arises, you will find congress getting a lot more serious about taking action re guns at political rallies.
It's "just harmless fun" when right wing nut jobs do it. Let some more liberals do it and suddenly, it will be a serious problem.
August 24, 2009 8:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's one for you:
1. Criminals LOVE the gun show loophole
2. Gun-nuts are foaming-at-the-mouth OPPOSED to closing the gun-show loophole.
"Coincidence" that gun-nuts claim a "need" to have guns, because criminals can get them, but they OPPOSE PREVENTING criminals getting them?
August 24, 2009 8:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please define the "gun show loophole". Explain explicitly how it is derived from extant law, and explain how it could be "closed".
August 25, 2009 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
The "gun-show loophole" allows individuals to sell guns without paper trail. Some of that selling is otherwise illegal, and some of those buying shouldn't be. But such transactions are unregulated.
Recently an FID-licensed "collector" was exposed by an investigative reporter at a VT gun show selling illegally. When buste his $40,000 "colection" was confiscated.
Two of the guns he'd sold were traced from murder scenes back to him.
"Responsible" gun-nuts insist that criminals can always get guns, while leaving out that they can easily buy them from "non-criminals" at gun shows.
August 26, 2009 4:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jeez...Yankees fans...
August 24, 2009 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
My reaction exactly.
August 24, 2009 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
About 35 yrs ago (before the AZ Diamondbacks came into being, defeated the Yankees in the World Series, and then descended back down the hill), the Arizona Legislature passed a little-noticed law allowing bare-armed Yankees fans to register and wear their gear, so long as it is not concealed. As a fmr Yankees fan (who kicked the habit, to mix stupid metaphors), I support repeal of that law. (BTW, the companion law allowing Cubs fans to openly wear in AZ should be repealed at the same time.)
August 24, 2009 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
This guy has the right idea. The best way to neutralize right-wing intimidation is to bring an intimidator of your own.
August 24, 2009 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
The WISE thing to do is NOT INTIMIDATE.
August 24, 2009 8:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tell that to the Radical Religious Right wingnuts.
August 25, 2009 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tell YOURSELF to STOP defending HYPOCRISY so long as YOURS.
Typical gun-nut: two wrongs make a right, so long as based upon morality.
We don't torture others in part because to do so is to give others permission to torture us.
We don't become like our enemy in order not to become like our enemy.
August 26, 2009 4:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Did any of the major news services talk to this guy? Is this being discussed anywhere else?
For the record, I don't think Josh did anything wrong at all. In fact, I think what he did is potentially a very good thing, provided that it gets enough coverage, and it may be a very good thing if the major news outlets ignore it altogether.
On the one hand, if it does get widespread attention, I think you will see cops finally stepping in and saying no.
On the other, if it does not get widespread attention, then we have a very interesting datapoint proving that it is not the fact that somebody brought a gun that gets the attention, but the message he was sending. Anti-reform with gun gets coverage. Pro-reform with gun does not.
August 24, 2009 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmm... "goddamn right"? I thought it was supposed to be termed "god-GIVEN" right...
August 24, 2009 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
One can't prove there's a "God," so it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise in order to claim a right is ABOVE and EXEMPT FROM the supreme law of the land.
Further: as Christ was the Prince of Peace, and said, "Turn the other cheek," not, "Arm yourself to the teeth," claiming the right to arm oneself with deadly weapons toward killing as a "God"-given right is a horseshit hiding behind Christianity for anti-Christian ends.
Ask yourself: are the intellectually dishonest sufficiently responsible to be allowed to own guns?
August 24, 2009 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Canadian researchers have created a touchy-feely robot that detects tougher tumour tissue in half the time, and with 40% more accuracy than a human.
Now, how in the world can a supposedly second-rate (or even third-rate) health care system come up with something that the supposedly first-rate system in America could not?
August 24, 2009 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cuz we're 'MERKANS! We dun do that there 'touchee-feelee' crap like them damned Canuckians do!
August 24, 2009 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Obamacare Plan to Fund Flesh-Groping Death Robots"
August 24, 2009 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for this, I cannot stop laughing.
=)
August 24, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
The USA is 35th in longevity among countries in this world.
The current US health care system is killing off our citizens faster than 34 other countries, yet the Radical Right Republicans keep saying that the current health care system is "THE BEST" available anywhere - there is no need for improvement.
August 25, 2009 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
I bought a new SUV, now I can tow my new Howitzer to the next town hall.
August 24, 2009 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've got an idea...
Since laughing at people is a good weapon (if you'll pardon the expression), why not show up with squirt guns? You know, the colorful plastic kinds. A mob of health care supporters armed with ... water.
August 24, 2009 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like that idea.
August 24, 2009 7:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wouldn't: there are gun-nuts out there JONESING for a chance to shoot someone.
August 24, 2009 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sadly, I'm more in favor of the show of real weaponry than fake--only because people brandishing squirt guns would know they're fake, whereas others might not.
What a mess.
August 24, 2009 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
buddy,
excellent idea, we can have water pistol fights and bring water balloons, using them as grenades.
August 25, 2009 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah! We can all show up with our Plain Dealers and squirt guns, and, on cue everyone can...
Oh wait. I'm at the wrong theater.
Dang.
August 24, 2009 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Squirt guns AND ... tinfoil hats! For camo. We'd be a regular fifth column.
August 24, 2009 8:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that this was a distraction and I'm not a fan of this anyone-can-carry law, but I'm also partly glad to see a pro-reform person show that conservatives aren't the only one with guns. I mean, I own guns and I'm a raging liberal. A person can, indeed, own guns and not be a redneck with a power-trip. Of course I don't want there to be a tit-for-tat at these town halls, either, but I am glad that one liberal did this.
August 25, 2009 12:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."
— Playwright Anton Chekhov (From S. Shchukin, Memoirs. 1911.)
August 25, 2009 12:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
A literary trope is not useful for predicting outcomes in reality. Reality does not conform to the Law of Conservation of Detail.
August 25, 2009 9:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
The 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution protects everyone’s freedom of speech including the right to peaceably assemble, and the 2nd Amendment protects everyone's right to bear arms.
However, the Constitution doesn't have any intelligence requirements to exercise those rights at the same time…
http://unreasonablysafe.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/bestprotestsign/
August 25, 2009 2:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, that's the way to bond with the right wing, bring firearms to a public rally because they did.
Lefty - "Hey look man, check out my .38! Sweet right?"
Righty - "Pffft. .38s are for pussies and beat cops. Which are you? Check out a real gun (pulls out AR-15). This is a gun."
Please leave the real guns at home. Bring the squirt guns instead. It'll make 'em feel as ridiculous as they ought to.
August 25, 2009 7:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Again, please don't bring the squirtguns--only because they might be mistaken for real guns, and especially if the people brandishing them aren't taking it seriously (playing mission impossible, etc.) it could go really bad.
If you feel a need to exercise your right to bring a real gun in support of the Prez, then go ahead, try to keep it dignified, and do your best to stay safe. But I think fake guns could go really, really bad.
JMHO
August 26, 2009 12:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh no, the squirtguns ought to be as neon-colored and garish as possible--as in no one with two eyes in their head, a nose on their face, or ears encasing their gray matter could mistake them for anything but squirtguns with big giant tanks full of water on them. The idea is not to actually fire them or point them at anyone, the point is to saunter up next to the people with guns, mimic them a bit, and start up a conversation about how awesome your squirtgun is. To brandish them or do anything that the gun carriers are NOT doing would be to defeat the purpose of the exercise.
Give 'em a mirror to look in, just make it a fun house one:D
August 29, 2009 9:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good for him. Plain old-fashioned iconoclasm -- it's a good thing.
Apparently, the lesson that someone carrying a weapon could have something useful to say, is completely lost on most of the people here. Clue: he's not the stupid one. The inability to pay attention to the message rather than the messenger is not an endearing trait. Which side of the political aisle you sit on does not make a difference.
The wingnuts parading their guns at public forums are limp-wristed wankers, who are scared sh**less of getting shot. The saying is, "Them what's talking about it, ain't doin' it." The scary guys are the ones who are illegally packing. And they're not parading at some congressman's town hall meeting.
Thanks.
mp
August 25, 2009 8:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think the people bringing guns to political events to intimidate - and often agitate for revolution using Obama as an excuse - need to realize things would not go all their way if things go from push to shove.
I posted the following at Donklelephant in response to those agitating for armed revolt. I would just give a link, but the shortcut I saved gives me the 404 error. It is not that I think things will actually come to this, I think it has a lot to do with fear and uncertainty that us white folk are losing majority status.
The state I live is largely pro-republican and has many unnoticed militia groups. The militia groups keep to themselves for the most part and stay out of the public eye. A close friend of mine has family who are members, which is where I here a lot about it. Lately my mother has been falling for some of their arguments, then calling me a radical for disagreeing. She thinks I hate anything republican even though she knows I am fiercely independent. I have so little respect for the far right right now I guess I sound like a "flaming liberal."
So this was a bit of a rant because my buttons have been getting pushed a lot lately. Nonetheless, I am very serious about what I said. Maybe if the agitators realize they will face opposition at levels, even death, maybe they will think before doing something really stupid.
Then again, maybe I'm a fruitcake. Am I?
August 25, 2009 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
The teabaggin' wingnuts firmly believe that their guns intimidate progressives and weaken their resolve. They must be disabused of that notion immediately.
Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that bringing a gun to a public event like a town hall or a political rally is a good idea. However, at this critical time in our history it may be necessary. Reichwingers will keep up their foolishness as long as they continue to view us as spineless. In reality, most of them are gutless bullies who will crap themselves when faced with a direct challenge.
Teabaggers can't align their idea of all liberals being unarmed and weak with the shocking reality of an openly-armed progressive like Josh. It will cause their heads to explode...and that's a sound I want to hear.
August 25, 2009 10:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
This needs to be on Face Book and especially on You Tube if there's anyway to do it.
August 25, 2009 3:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
HELL YEAH!!!!! This is what I've been hoping for! Fuck the GOP!
This man is a fucking hero! Go! The right needs to know if they want to launch a revolution we are not going to passively sit by and let it happen.
August 26, 2009 10:37 AM | Reply | Permalink