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In Testimony, Rove Hedged On Role In Siegelman Prosecution

Hat tip to Roger Shuler at the Legal Schnauzer blog for this one...

It didn't get much attention, but the testimony from Karl Rove that was released this week concerned not just the U.S. attorney firings, but also another alleged instance of politicization of the Justice Department: the Don Siegelman prosecution.

On that score, Rove emerged almost totally unscathed from the transcript's release. The major papers didn't mention Siegelman at all in their coverage, and the Alabama press largely portrayed Rove as having denied any involvement in the episode, as he's done before.

But a closer look at the transcript suggests it's not nearly that simple. Rove was asked numerous versions of the question about whether he played a role in the Siegelman prosecution. And though he offered flat denials to some of those versions, it's striking how many times he declined to give a firm answer, instead falling back on responses like, "not that I recall," or "not that I'm aware of."

Siegelman himself agrees, telling TPMmuckraker in an interview that Rove repeatedly "leaves the door cracked" in his testimony. "He didn't deny this," Siegelman added, calling Rove "a pathological liar," who "practiced the art of deception starting early in his life."

Let's go to the transcript:

At one point, Eliot Mincberg of the House Judiciary committee asked Rove:

In the period of time, again, between Governor Siegelman's election and the end of 2002, did you ever communicate about Governor Siegelman with anyone working at the Department of Justice?

Rove replied unequivocally: "No".

But that certainty was rare.

Soon afterwards, Mincberg asked:

[I]n the period of time between Governor Siegelman's election and the end of 2002, did you have any communication about Governor Siegelman with anyone working at any of the Alabama U.S. Attorneys' offices?

Rove replied: "Not that I'm aware of."

Mincberg again:

Referring to that same period of time up to the end of 2002, did you have any communications about a possible criminal investigation, prosecution, or illegal acts by Governor Siegelman with Bob Riley, his son Rob Riley, or anyone in the Riley administration?

This time, Rove first asked Mincberg to repeat the question. Then he answered: "Not that I recall."

Mincberg:

In the period of time, again up to the end of 2002, did you have any communications about a possible criminal investigation, prosecution, or illegal acts by Governor Siegelman to anyone working in the media or the press?

You'd think that's something Rove would remember well enough to give a definitive answer on especially given the amount of time he's had, since his testimony was agreed to, specifically to allow him to go back and review the record.

But again, Rove answered: "Not that I'm aware of."

Mincberg:

Again, in the period of time between Governor Siegelman's election and the end of 2002, did you or anyone working for you ever have any communications with anyone about a possible criminal investigation, prosecution, or illegal acts by Governor Siegelman?

Rove's response: "Not that I'm aware of." (Of course, Mincberg asked here about "anyone working for you," as well as Rove himself, so perhaps the hedge is appropriate here. But Rove's White House staff wasn't huge. It wouldn't have been hard for him to ascertain, in the many months since his testimony was scheduled, whether any of his aides had such a conversation.)

Mincberg then moved on to a later time period:

Again, in that same period of time, 2002 to the public release of the indictment of October 2005, did you or anyone at OPA or RNC or RGA have any communications about a possible criminal investigation, prosecution, or illegal acts by Governor Siegelman with Bill Canary?

After conferring with his counsel, Rove replied: "I don't recall."

Note that here, Rove didn't reply "not that I'm aware of," which might be understandable given the number of people covered by the question. But: "Not that I recall."

Mincberg:

Again, in that same period of time between the end of 2002 and the public release of the Montgomery indictment in October of 2005, did you or, to the best of your knowledge, anyone at OPA, RNC or RGA ever communicate about a possible criminal
investigation, prosecution, or illegal acts by Governor Siegelman with Bob Riley, Rob Riley his son, or anyone in the Riley administration?

Rove: "Not that I recall."

Again, not "not that I'm aware of," but "not that I recall."

Soon after, Rove acknowledged that he might have spoken about Siegelman to Bill Canary. That's the Alabama GOP operative and Rove associate who had run Bob Riley's 2002 campaign against Siegelman, and the husband of Leura Canary, the U.S. attorney who prosecuted Siegleman. But, said Rove, he didn't remember.

K.R.: I may have had a conversation with Canary about something that was public, but I don't recall."

E.M.: And do you recall anything about what that conversation -- if there was such a conversation -- what the content of that conversation was?

K.R.: I'm not aware that I had a conversation, but I wouldn't -- I don't want to -- there could have conceivably been such. I just don't recall.

E.M.: In any event, you don't recall the content of any such --

K.R.: No.

In some of these cases, it's perhaps understandable that Rove would phrase things this way. The questions cover long time periods, after all, and Rove is under oath.

But past experience with the man known as "Bush's Brain" -- not to mention the doggedness with which the Bush White House fought to have him avoid testifying at all -- suggests, at the very least, that his statements deserve an especially high degree of scrutiny. And when that scrutiny is applied, it's striking how equivocal many of his answers on Siegelman are.


23 Comments

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Holder/DoJ, on the other hand seem unequivocal that Siegelman doesn't deserve a retrial regardless of probable Prosecutor and Juror misconduct, not to mention Greg Craig's conflict of interest.

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He obviously did it. There's really no question about that. The question is, can it be proved in court? If the DOJ went after him with the full weight of the Federal Government behind, then yes. Otherwise, no.

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What are the legal implications of his form of answering? On the face of it, questions that would seem to be Yes or No are transformed into "No" and "Not No," but as far as "Not No," goes, is there a legal difference between "I don't recall" and "not that I'm aware of?"

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Thanks for tracking this down Zach. I was wondering if the committee had pinned him down on the Seligman case, but it didn't pop up in any of the coverage.

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This could be the one thing to get Rove on Lying to Congress about. I believe there is testimony from a whistleblower that shows Rove is lying about this issue.If my memory serves me right ( it doesn't always ) then the woman employed by the GOP at the time has said she knew Rove was speaking to people involved in the trial and more.

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Your memory serves you correctly. The 'whistleblower' was Dana Jill Simpson:

"Her affidavit described William Canary, a legendary figure in the Alabama GOP, bragging that “his girls” would take care of Siegelman. Canary’s wife is Leura Canary, the U.S. Attorney for the Middle District of Alabama. Alice Martin, the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Alabama is a close confidante of Canary’s. He referred repeatedly to “Karl,” assuring that “Karl” had worked things out with the Justice Department in Washington to assure a criminal investigation and prosecution of Siegelman. Canary is a close friend of Karl Rove..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x290760

Note what happened to Simpson's house after she blew the whistle.

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One of the many things I found wearisome during the Bush Administration was the necessity to parse all of their communications and answers to the smallest level. The Bush Administration was spectacularly consistent in leaving those doors cracked open, the doors that allowed them to make flat statements (e.g., "We follow all legal guidelines") that seem to assert one thing, while the truth ("Our tame legal counsels have come up with justifications that cover out butts legally so far as those guidelines are concerned and give us plausible deniability") is quite different.

I must admit that I'm not very eager to go through Rove's dodging, hair-splitting, and evasions to try to elicit the truth. I just hope that there's a decent prosecutor on the case.

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This explains it:

Karl Rove admits having a “senior moment” in his testimony to the House Judiciary Committee, dancing around the key allegations that he had direct knowledge and an active role in the prosecution of former Alabama Governor Don Siegelman and the firings of U.S. attorneys. He takes what Washington insiders call the Ronald Reagan defense, a.k.a. the “Alzheimer’s defense,” as in “I don’t recall.”

In other words, and in contradiction with other published reports that Rove once again denied his role in manipulating the justice system from the White House, Rove’s testimony is what we call in the news business, “a non-denial denial.”

Rove Issues Non-Denial Denial in Siegelman Case

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I may not remember the Bill Clinton trials that much but I do clearly remember the Reagan Iran-Contra trials and all of his as well as many of his staff saying "I do not recall". Now caught in the cross-hares of a congressional investigation we here yet again here with Rove and Miers "I do not recall"

Is it really any wonder that many Americans find the GOP and many of its followers corrupt? It is not as if Reagan and company did or did not commit a crime, they did and some were convicted as such. Yet the GOP and its followers want us to have faith and their leaders who we have seen commit crimes in the past (albeit it was no oral in the oval), who we have recently seen lead us into a war based on false intelligence, we who over the past year alone have seen commit adultery (which is personal problem IMHO) and in all almost all cases have been accepted by the supposedly "morally superior" GOP base. I for fucks sake America open your frickin eyes!

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The Republican party - the Party of "No" and of "I don't recall."

Any time a Republican speaks of accountability, it's a joke. The term means Democratic Party accountability only. They intend to skate on the issue.

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Sorry about the misspellings,

Is it really any wonder that many Americans find the GOP and many of its followers corrupt? It's not as if Reagan and company did or did not commit a crime. They did! Some were convicted as such. Yet the GOP and its followers want us to have faith in their leaders who we have seen commit crimes in the past (albeit it was no oral in the oval), who we have recently seen lead us into a war based on false intelligence, who we over the past year alone have seen commit adultery (which is personal problem IMHO) and in all almost all cases have been accepted by the supposedly "morally superior" GOP base to continue to lead business as susual. For fucks sake America open your frickin eyes!

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An easy and failsafe way to extrapolate the truth from Rove... waterboarding!

It's not like it's torture or anything. And it's known to GET RESULTS!

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http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/40317

one from afterdowningstreet..title is this:
2/28/09:
"Karl Rove is Betting He Can Avoid Publicly Disclosing His Role"
By Chip

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3/10/07:
Rove was Urged to Oust US Attorney
msnbc.com

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17560718/

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one more interesting story regarding karl rove:
Siegelman:Rove hijacked Dept. of Justice to win elections/the raw story
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Siegelman_Rove_hijacked_Dept._of_Justice_0423.html

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How is that "legacy project" coming along, Mr. Rove?

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/forgive-and-forgetforget/

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Lawyers make bad witnesses. If Rove's personal ethics were strong and would not have permitted the acts in question, he would have answered no quickly and with no reservation. Recalling would have nothing to do with it.

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Just goes to show that the problem of increasing numbers of Alzheimer's victims has added one more, Karl Rove.

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During the Plame investigation by Patrick Fitzgerald Rove was called back to the grand jury about 5 times for some reason or other. I suspected this allowed Rove to escape a perjury charge.

Maybe the ticket in this new investigation is to charge Rove with perjury for "not recalling", or
"not that I'm aware of" and see what develops.

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I just want to shake the hand of the jock that use to kick his ass in Jr. High School.

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Actually the jock you refer to was a girl; she kicked his ass for sporting a Nixon bumpersticker on his bicycle.

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Can't wait to hear that Rove has been indicted. I believe it will happen if we continue to pressure our Democrats for investigations and prosecution.

And please don't forget that we need enforcement of our Federal Torture Laws.


Keep asking ALL politicians at ALL public events
"Why do they support Torture?"

If they aren't actively calling for enforcement
of our Federal Torture Laws,
They Do Support Torture.


SIGN THE PETITIONS
Demanding
both a Commission of Inquiry
and a Special Prosecutor
For All Their Crimes


at ANGRYVOTERS.ORG


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Only Prosecution Stops Torture!

Only Prosecution Stops Abuses of Our Constitution and Rights.

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He's going to jail.

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