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Dems to White House: C'mon, Let's Talk
In a letter (pdf) to White House counsel Fred Fielding today, the chairmen from the House and Senate judiciary committees sought to renew negotiations over the testimony of Karl Rove and other White House officials.
"[W]e have not heard from you" since last week, the two write. They then lay out the terms for proceeding.
The White House's offer of testimony behind closed doors, with no transcript or oath is still a non-starter, they say. But there is something else "worth pursuing" in the meantime: the White House could hand over records of communications between White House officials and members of Congress, as Fielding has already offered. The White House has said that it willl not hand over "internal" emails, a stand to which Democrats object. But that shouldn't totally stop the flow of material, they say: "Recognizing we have a dispute over those documents should not delay the Committees receiving the other documents that you indicate you are willing to provide." So let's see those third party emails.
The chairmen close by telling Fielding that they want to see more than just correspondence from White House email addresses -- since people in the White House seem to frequently use RNC-provided email addresses instead:
"we trust that you will be collecting and producing emails and documents from all email accounts, addresses and domains and that you are not artificially limiting your production to the official White House email and document retention system."
Comments (234)
David in NY wrote on March 28, 2007 3:37 PM:Stupid. You don't negotiate against yourself. It's their turn to speak; if they don't, serve those subpoenas. Then maybe they will.
EH wrote on March 28, 2007 3:40 PM:Yes, exactly. Stonewalls don't talk.
Rusty wrote on March 28, 2007 3:40 PM:Amen. They need to face the fact that they are not going to cooperate. This is just more time for forming strategy, witness coaching, etc. Serve those subpeonas. Lets move this foward.
melandell wrote on March 28, 2007 3:41 PM:that's no negotiation - that's a demand for uncontested documents. that's called narrowing the issues; it's a standard move.
Buck wrote on March 28, 2007 3:42 PM:I disagree. They're signaling they have the goods on them.
"we trust that you will be collecting and producing emails and documents from all email accounts, addresses and domains and that you are not artificially limiting your production to the official White House email and document retention system."
How curt is that?
Ottoe wrote on March 28, 2007 3:44 PM:Well they may have spoken again but I don't see them negotiating against themselves. I see them tightening the screws by demanding relevant emails.
PTF wrote on March 28, 2007 3:44 PM:Since Bush (officially) has control of Clinton's records, look for a rash of Clinton e-mails to come out soon as a smokescreen.
Erasmus wrote on March 28, 2007 3:49 PM:I'm hoping this is just a dance before a swift kick in the groin with subpoenas.
Allie wrote on March 28, 2007 3:50 PM:that's no negotiation - that's a demand for uncontested documents. that's called narrowing the issues; it's a standard move.
I agree. It takes a potential bargaining chip away from the WH.
profmarcus wrote on March 28, 2007 3:52 PM:dear fred,
we wanted to take a few moments and drop you a short note... it's been a while since we've heard from you... we hope this finds you well...
you'd indicated a while back that you had other documents and third party emails that you would be sending along... since we've caught up with all the other documents you've so thoughtfully provided, this would be a good time to send the rest along, if you can spare some staff to put them all together...
please keep in mind that we are certainly open to discussing the larger matter at greater depth at your earliest convenience...
best regards,
your friends in congress
http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/
Alex wrote on March 28, 2007 3:52 PM:Yeah -- this is called papering the record, and every good lawyer does it when requesting discovery of any kind. Because then when they continue to stonewall and you have to go to extreme measures, you've got a halo. But you're not actually offering any substantive compromise.
US8 wrote on March 28, 2007 3:52 PM:Its important that they specifically ask if there is documentation of Rove/Miers discussing the removal of a USA to derail an investigation. I'll hazard a guess that Fielding doesn't know the answer. Further absence of an answer is telling. Fielding is a top flight lawyer and he has certainly told the gang that if they mucked up an investigation for political purposes they are screwed.
Radjil wrote on March 28, 2007 4:01 PM:The committees are not sitting on their hands They have Sampson coming in tomorrow to testify under oath and others in the wings. They can afford to slowly build a case against Rove and Miers, get all the documentation the White House is willing to give at present, try to make sure that emails from those other domains are not deleted and then, after the noose is tighter, subpoena their asses. They may refuse to testify and it may go to court, but in the meantime, the Dems have all the info that has been available to that point.
Frederick wrote on March 28, 2007 4:03 PM:Listen with an industrial shredder in front of Cheney's
Anne wrote on March 28, 2007 4:03 PM:Washington residence, we don't have much time. I
can see Dick in his bathrobe in the middle of the night,
directing the crew on how to shred documents, God know he's probably had alot of practice.
Looks to me like Rove and Meiers, and the like, may end up being compelled to testify, because the documents and the testimony the committees do get, on top of what they already have, is going to make executive privilege a non-issue.
ahem wrote on March 28, 2007 4:07 PM:I'd have liked them to stress that they want emails *originating* from third-party accounts but used to do govt. business. The two doc-dumps so far have only featured non-.gov accounts as reply addresses. We've seen nothing (other than copied replies) originating from Scott Jennings, for instance.
From the GSA hearing today, it does seem as if the Oversight and Judiciary Committees are finally twigging how big a deal it is that 'Karl's shop' does its business off the books. That alone deserves hearings.
jdw wrote on March 28, 2007 4:08 PM:Compares:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/03/does_time_manag.php
Contrast:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17837826/site/newsweek
Josh & Co.: you need to dig up the e-mail and open up a new Muck entry for it.
Nils wrote on March 28, 2007 4:08 PM:Let's not forget that e-mails 'never disappear'. They are not shreddable, and if they are as recent as last November, the ISP should have backups. Of course, the Dems could always request the NSA to get them. :)
Punchy wrote on March 28, 2007 4:23 PM:"Looks to me like Rove and Meiers, and the like, may end up being compelled to testify, because the documents and the testimony the committees do get, on top of what they already have, is going to make executive privilege a non-issue"
Non-issue to whom???? The WH will still claim executive privilege, regardless of its applicability and legality. They will FORCE this to the courts. And I'd be stunned if they didn't already have a judge lined up ready to agree with their side of the argument.
Shorter--what's "legal" and "compelling" means nothing w/r/t how they'll act. They're above such law. Have been for 6+ years.
Abby Kelleyite wrote on March 28, 2007 4:26 PM:The most important part of this letter is the last part where it makes it absolutely clear that the requests for production of documents not be artificially limited to official white house communication channels but also include the rnc and gwbush mailservers (and any others). By delineating these non-official channels, they are also establishing a categorization that might lead to claims that any such documents are not subject to executive privilege.
mayan wrote on March 28, 2007 4:29 PM:I don't see them ceding anything, so it's not a bid-against-yourself situation.
Rather, I see this as a play to the American public. "We have done EVERYTHING possible, exhausted every conceivable nook and cranny, to get these people to shed some sunlight and they won't...so, they've left us with no choice. This is our job and they're not letting us do it."
Anne wrote on March 28, 2007 4:33 PM:Executive privilege will be a non-issue in the sense that it isn't going to hold up, and I don't think it's going to take very long for that decision to come. You envision a battle that goes all the way to the Supreme Court, but it doesn't take very long for appeals courts and the Supreme Court to decline to hear an appeal of a lower court ruling that is eminently valid.
And by being "compelled to testify," I mean that I think the committees will have enough of the pieces of the puzzle, through documents and other testimony, that Rove and Meiers will be forced to appear if they want to have any chance to dispel the conclusions that will be reached without their input.
I think the conclusions will be the same, either way - and maybe they will too, and will follow what will likely be legal advice to keep their mouths shut to avoid incriminating themselves further.
I think the cards the committee is holding are a much better hand than what the WH, DOJ and Rove/Meiers have, and I think Leahy and Conyers are signalling to Fielding that they are ready to call their bluff.
Pinson wrote on March 28, 2007 4:34 PM:Nils makes and excellent point. Rove and Miers can delete whatever they want, but email and text messages more or less live forever once they sail across the network. There are alternate routes for Leahy to get what he wants. Also, on the point about not negotiating with yourself, I think this is probaly their last "we're playing nice" message. Once D. Kyle gets on the stand tomorrow, this whole thing is going to go supernova. D. Kyle seems to be under the delusion that he's going to go in there, put a happy face on all of this and turn the tide for the administration. It's going to get very ugly very fast, and it's highly likely the he too will take the fifth at some point. By this time tomorrow, Leahy will have a lot more leverage than he has today, and he already has quite a bit.
Abby Kelleyite wrote on March 28, 2007 4:43 PM:More on executive privilege: It is fundamental to any privilege claim that there be a reasonable expectation of privacy. So while there may be some argument that "internal" white house communications stored on white house servers are privileged, there can be no such reasonable expectation of privacy in servers that are controlled by the RNC. Disposing of any privilege claim as to any such documents would be a relatively easy case.
rlogan wrote on March 28, 2007 4:44 PM:The emails outside the government system need to be placed under subpoena immediately, and there are two important extensions of this revelation:
1) All previous blockbuster scandals need to be revisited with this channel of information exposed: The phony WMD propaganda machine named "Office of Special Plans" that was run by Feith, for example.
2) Since the White House staff has already admitted they used external emails to do the secret, but genuine communications because of potential subpoena exposure - some of the "official" communications that do exist may very well be fraudulent and constructed specifically to cover up what was really going on.
In short, while one "official" email goes out saying one thing, another genuine email goes out on the external system saying quite another.
Comparing internal vs external emails may very well give the slam-dunk criminal conspiracy (RICO) charges that put these people away.
Pompano Pete wrote on March 28, 2007 4:47 PM:The court of public opinion is now in session.
So long as the various committees continue to act reasonably, speak politely, and issue subpoenas with "great reluctance", these arrogant assholes in this administration will hang themselves. Exhibits A, B, and C - McNulty, Lurita Doan and Monica Goodling. Add Kyle Sampson tomorrow, and Fred Fielding will really regret he ever took this job for Buchco.
But still, the "young bulls" want to run down the hill and "subpoena" the heifers. Just walk slowly and the "old bulls" in Congress will screw them all and make certain it happens in public.
StephenH wrote on March 28, 2007 4:47 PM:Democrats know Bush is determined to stonewall. They just want everyone to know and understand that's what he's doing. They want eveyone to see they're trying to be reasonable, but that Bush is just as determined to create a Constitutional crisis as he was to invade Iraq.
"Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in private emails will be heard in the light; and that which ye have thumbed into a blackberry will be proclaimed upon the housetops." (Luke 12:3)
Ian wrote on March 28, 2007 4:55 PM:Digby is reporting that Iglesias is being "swiftboated" with attack ads in New Mexico. He's not a candidate? WTF?
http://www.digbysblog.blogspot.com/
LongTom wrote on March 28, 2007 4:55 PM:Yes, this is a demand couched in polite language. But the Dems have yet to show that they have the spine or the intelligence to stand up to the Rovian spin machine. These Dems are the same people who, in 2004, let Rove con them into a namby-pamby "no Bush-bashing" national convention; only to be vilified by the Republican Nuremberg-style hate-fest a couple of weeks later.
I don't know what tyhe best day-to-day tactics are here. But I'm not confident that the Dems do either. The goal is not necessarily impeachment, or even the further crippling of this already limping administration. The goals are criminal trials where appropriate (Bush, Cheney, Rove, and Abu Gonzalez, for starters) and the destruction of the national Republican party, which has become nothing short of a criminal enterprise.
Do the Dems have the guts and the savvy for this?
Anonymous wrote on March 28, 2007 5:01 PM:I'd like to think so, but I'm not optimistic.
This seems like part of the Democrat Charm Offensive, along with Pelosi and Reid making nicey-nice noises about compromising with the Pres. on Iraq funding. It pays to have the Democrats seen as calm adults, who are being businesslike and reasonable, while the White House throws tantrums and spouts nonsense. Reminding everyone that they've been promised documents not in dispute, but the White House hasn't delivered, is part of that.
BTW, I notice that Heather Wilson, who was involved in the Iglesias removal, appears on Karl's little 'GSA PowerPoint' Hatch Act violation. It seems like some 'connecting dots' would make for an even stronger case against executive privilege covering Mr. Rove.
Cufford wrote on March 28, 2007 5:05 PM:I suspect that the Dems will ultimately back down, never actually issue subpoenas to Rove or Meirs, and essentially capitulate to whatever the White House is willing to offer to them.
That would be par for the course.
Cufford
Long Memory wrote on March 28, 2007 5:09 PM:Fresno, CA
That letter reminds me of friendly reminders I have on occasion received from creditors. But I was never bankrupt, unlike the people currently in the White House.
Paula wrote on March 28, 2007 5:13 PM:I don't see the Dems backing down on this. It appears to me that they're giving the administration the opportunity to cooperate, knowing full well that they won't. There's no rush here. The longer this drags out, the better it is for us.
cevrero wrote on March 28, 2007 5:15 PM:"we've given the congress an un precedented access to over 3000 pages of handpicked documents",....."oh shit, you want all the other emails, we've been hiding from you"
Mark F. wrote on March 28, 2007 6:03 PM:"The White House has said that it willl not hand over "internal" emails"
It's my understanding that there WERE no internal emails. Wasn't everyone at the White House using RNC email accounts? Surely there's nothing "internal" about THOSE emails.
Mark F. wrote on March 28, 2007 6:14 PM:The entire letter can be summed up in this single statement:
"For example, if there is a memorandum or an e-mail from Karl Rove to Harriet Miers initiating consideration of firing some United States attorneys in order to impede an investigation, that would be very important for the Committees to know."
That is a bad-ass snake rattling its tail. They already know that this document exists, and they're letting Fielding know that they know. This is gonna get good. I'm sure as hell glad Leahy is on our side...
Long Memory wrote on March 28, 2007 6:25 PM:I tend to think the Dems won't back down on this one, and for one reason that hasn't been mentioned: The Congressional Republicans are just sitting this one out. There's nobody on the offensive for the administration. I can't read their minds, but it's almost as if the GOP members are saying "You got yourself into this. Get yourself out."
After all, this was about dissing Congress, among several other things.
And one more thing: I thought Rush was through carrying their water. Sounded today like his leg is all wet. Maybe he ... nevermind.
Anonymous wrote on March 28, 2007 6:32 PM:Does anyone else think there might be much much more to the USA story than has appeared to date? That is, that we aren't even close to the worst of it.
jdw wrote on March 28, 2007 6:32 PM:KOS had the swiftboating of David Iglesias as well:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/3/28/11581/0857
Do you get the feeling that the Administration is creating more Jim Webb's with all this stuff? That the more moderate, rational of Republicans are getting so turned off by the Newt-DeLay-Rove era tactics and the Bush-Cheney incompetence that they're going to turn BlueDog? I mean... these USAG's were strong, loyal Republicans that they tossed under the bus for not being proper lapdogs to policy. They are hardly the only ones in the party. They're getting to the point where they see that they need to either sell their souls like McCain (not that McCain has a soul at this point) to get elected, or...
What option do they have? Doesn't the Webb route have some attraction to the sane ones who are on their way up?
Anonymous wrote on March 28, 2007 6:36 PM:quote from above
***********************************
In short, while one "official" email goes out saying one thing, another genuine email goes out on the external system saying quite another.
Comparing internal vs external emails may very well give the slam-dunk criminal conspiracy (RICO) charges that put these people away.
Posted by: rlogan
Date: March 28, 2007 04:44 PM "
***************************************
close quote
Double accounting books, so to speak? NO!!
otob wrote on March 28, 2007 6:38 PM:I think "document retention policies" are going to come into play before long. I don't know what it is in government, but I worked in a company with a 3 month document retention policy. Everything beyond three months was auto-deleted.
That helps prevent people from sticking their nose where the company doesn't want it, and it provide cover - they were following their policy.
I'll add this: it'd be interesting to get a few CTO's together to discuss the implications of using non-company emails. I know a lot of my former coworkers used tmail accounts for business discussion they wanted to avoid the CEO from having access to.
daCascadian wrote on March 28, 2007 8:36 PM:MUCH MUCH worse than Watergate
Get use to the idea now.
"The future will be a struggle between huge competing systems of psychopathology." - J. G. Ballard
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