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Rove on Voter Fraud
We already know that Karl Rove passed along complaints to Alberto Gonzales about certain U.S. attorneys' performance on voter fraud prosecutions. And in the case of New Mexico's David Iglesias, that complaint likely contributed to his firing.
But it's clear this is something of an obsession to Rove.
One year ago, April 7, 2006, he gave a speech to the Republican National Lawyers Association, in which he covered a number of topics of interest to his audience (i.e. tort reform), but one topic seemed to hold the audience's attention in particular: voter fraud. To quote an audience member: "The Democrats seem to want to make this year an election about integrity, and we know that their party rests on the base of election fraud."
Rove had clearly spent a lot of time on it -- rattling off statistics and referring to problem counties in far-flung states with familiarity. He also showed no shyness at over-hyping the issue: "We are, in some parts of the country, I'm afraid to say, beginning to look like we have elections like those run in countries where they guys in charge are, you know, colonels in mirrored sunglasses."
Now, two of the fired U.S. attorneys -- John McKay of Seattle and David Iglesias of New Mexico -- provoked anger among the Republican leadership in their respective states by not prosecuting instances of voter fraud. Both have said they didn't prosecute after prolonged investigations because, in McKay's words, there "was no evidence."
Tellingly, both Washington and New Mexico get a special mention in Rove's remarks.
Excerpts from the speech (some of which were featured in a McClatchy piece last month), and the question and answer session that followed, are below.
From the April 7, 2006 speech:
I want to thank you for your work on clean elections. I know a lot of you spent time in the 2004 election, the 2002, election, the 2000 election in your communities or in strange counties in Florida, helping make it certain that we had the fair and legitimate outcome of the election. We have, as you know, an enormous and growing problem with elections in certain parts of America today. We are, in some parts of the country, I'm afraid to say, beginning to look like we have elections like those run in countries where they guys in charge are, you know, colonels in mirrored sunglasses. I mean, it's a real problem, and I appreciate that all that you're doing in those hot spots around the country to ensure that the ballot -- the integrity of the ballot is protected, because it's important to our democracy….
From the following question and answer session:
QUESTION: In 2008, what states do you think are going to be the swing states?...ROVE: You know, I think in 2008, there will be a number of states which will be competitive that are familiar states: Pennsylvania, Michigan, Ohio, maybe not Florida, Colorado, Arkansas, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nevada, Iowa, New Mexico.
But I think we're also going to see, depending on who the candidates are, some other states come into play. And that's the interesting thing about elections -- is that who would have forecast before the 2000 election that West Virginia would be a swing state?
Think about it. In 1996, Bob Dole lost the state by 16 points. In 2000, we won the state by six. That means a 22-point shift.
That means that 40 percent of the people who voted for Clinton/Gore in 1996 voted for Bush/Cheney in 2000, a pretty remarkable shift in four short years.
So a lot in American politics is up for grabs. There are very few states like the District of Columbia or Texas where it can be reliably forecast that they're out of play for the 2008 election.
I intend to observe it with a great deal of interest….
QUESTION: The Democrats seem to want to make this year an election about integrity, and we know that their party rests on the base of election fraud. And we know that, in some states, some of our folks are pushing for election measures like voter ID.
But have you thought about using the bully pulpit of the White House to talk about election reform and an election integrity agenda that would put the Democrats back on the defensive?
ROVE: Yes, it's an interesting idea. We've got a few more things to do before the political silly season gets going, really hot and heavy. But yes, this is a real problem. What is it -- five wards in the city of Milwaukee have more voters than adults?
With all due respect to the City of Brotherly Love, Norcross Roanblank's (ph) home turf, I do not believe that 100 percent of the living adults in this city of Philadelphia are registered, which is what election statistics would lead you to believe.
I mean, there are parts of Texas where we haven't been able to pull that thing off.
(LAUGHTER)
And we've been after it for a great many years.
So I mean, this is a growing problem.
The spectacle in Washington state; the attempts, in the aftermath of the 2000 election to disqualify military voters in Florida, or to, in one instance, disqualify every absentee voter in Seminole county -- I mean, these are pretty extraordinary measures that should give us all pause.
The efforts in St. Louis to keep the polls opened -- open in selected precincts -- I mean, I would love to have that happen as long, as I could pick the precincts.
This is a real problem. And it is not going away.
I mean, Bernalillo County, New Mexico will have a problem after the next election, just like it has had after the last two elections.
I mean, I remember election night, 2000, when they said, oops, we just made a little mistake; we failed to count 55,000 ballots in Bernalillo; we'll be back to you tomorrow.
That is a problem. And I don't care whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, a vegetarian or a beef-eater, this is an issue that ought to concern you because, at the heart of it, our democracy depends upon the integrity of the ballot place. And if you cannot...
I have to admit, too -- look, I'm not a lawyer. So all I've got to rely on is common sense. But what is the matter? I go to the grocery store and I want to cash a check to pay for my groceries, I've got to show a little bit of ID.
Why should it not be reasonable and responsible to say that when people show up at the voting place, they ought to be able to prove who they are by showing some form of ID?
We can make arrangements for those who don't have driver's licenses. We can have provisional ballots, so that if there is a question that arises, we have a way to check that ballot. But it is fundamentally fair and appropriate to say, if you're going to show up and claim to be somebody, you better be able to prove it, when it comes to the most sacred thing we have been a democracy, which is our right of expression at the ballot.
And if not, let's just not kid ourselves, that elections will not be about the true expression of the people in electing their government, it will be a question of who can stuff it the best and most. And that is not healthy.
QUESTION: I've been reading some articles about different states, notably in the west, going to mail-in ballots and maybe even toying with the idea of online ballots. Are you concerned about this, in the sense of a mass potential, obviously, for voter fraud that this might have in the West?
ROVE: Yes. And I'm really worried about online voting, because we do not know all the ways that one can jimmy the system. All we know is that there are many ways to jimmy the system.
I'm also concerned about the increasing problems with mail-in ballots. Having last night cast my mail-in ballot for the April 11 run-off in Texas, in which there was one race left in Kerr County to settle -- but I am worried about it because the mail-in ballots, particularly in the Northwest, strike me as problematic.
I remember in 2000, that we had reports of people -- you know, the practice in Oregon is everybody gets their ballot mailed to them and then you fill it out.
And one of the practices is that people will go to political rallies and turn in their ballots. And we received reports in the 2000 election -- which, remember we lost Oregon by 5000 votes -- we got reports of people showing up at Republican rallies and passing around the holder to get your ballot, and then people not being able to recognize who those people were and not certain that all those ballots got turned in.
On Election Day, I remember, in the city of Portland, Multnomah County -- I'm going to mispronounce the name -- but there were four of voting places in the city, for those of you who don't get the ballots, well, we had to put out 100 lawyers that day in Portland, because we had people showing up with library cards, voting at multiple places.
I mean, why was it that those young people showed up at all four places, showing their library card from one library in the Portland area? I mean, there's a problem with this.
And I know we need to make arrangements for those people who don't live in the community in which they are registered to vote or for people who are going to be away for Election Day or who are ill or for whom it's a real difficulty to get to the polls. But we need to have procedures in place that allow us to monitor it.
And in the city of Portland, we could not monitor. If somebody showed up at one of those four voting locations, we couldn't monitor whether they had already cast their mail-in ballot or not. And we lost the state by 5,000 votes.
I mean, come on. What kind of confidence can you have in that system? So yes, we've got to do more about it.
Comments (88)
Sheila Condit wrote on April 10, 2007 6:59 PM:"And if not, let's just not kid ourselves, that elections will not be about the true expression of the people in electing their government, it will be a question of who can stuff it the best and most. And that is not healthy."
Golly, wonder how Karl handled this conundrum? I've really been hoping that the DOJ debacle will put us on the trail of the fraud we know they perpetrated. I'm going to keep clicking my heels three times.
Anonymous wrote on April 10, 2007 7:03 PM:If you want to know what Rove is doing, all you have to do is note what he is accusing his enemies of (the rest of America, apparently). Rove/Bush/Cheney are guilty of conspiracy to steal elections and to undermine our democratic institutions. They have all broken the law multiple times. We have organized crime running the country. My sincere wish is that they would all rot in a prison of their own making.
Mitch wrote on April 10, 2007 7:05 PM:"On Election Day, I remember, in the city of Portland, Multnomah County -- I'm going to mispronounce the name -- but there were four of voting places in the city, for those of you who don't get the ballots, well, we had to put out 100 lawyers that day in Portland, because we had people showing up with library cards, voting at multiple places."
I live in Portland. This statement by Rove is crap. You get one paper ballot by mail, and then if you choose you can drop it off at a local library after it is filled out. You don't pick up ballots at the library. Is Rove lying or is his completely uninformed. To quote W. "Does it matter?"
Mike Conwell wrote on April 10, 2007 7:06 PM:in Texas, a State wide effort by the Republican Party of Texas to create a "Ballot Integrity Task Force" led to local party officials "training" supposedly non-partisan election judges. I truly believe that Statewide, this led to valid voters getting turned away from the polls on election day.
The training I attended (after being told I wasn't invited) had a number of errors in Election Law stated, and painted our local County Clerk and several of her staff as "Bad Guys" and the GOP election judges as making sure that the Democrats aren't up to any dirty tricks.
Complaints made to the Secretary of State (Republican oddly enough) led to a response that said they couldn't enforce any standards in training. That's not on the website, I'll see if I can get it up there.
Click on the signature link for documents, tape recordings and correspondence
pre-amerikkkan wrote on April 10, 2007 7:10 PM:take him behind the bully pulpit, woodshed him and let us monitor it.
"what kind of confidence can you have in that system?"
since w stole the first election, less than none.
code word: "warm" as in you warm my heart because it's you who have assured us that an (R) after a candidate's name means extra scrutiny by any sane voter in every election forever. thanks, kkkarl
Anonymous wrote on April 10, 2007 7:13 PM:In public speaking, Truth has never bothered Karl. "Believability" is far more important. It motivates better. It doesn't require nuance or distinction. Most importantly, it allows facts to morph into opinion. Opinions, no matter how divorced from facts, can never be a lie and or lead to a perjury conviction.
Mr. Rove knows his electoral statistics better than Shrub knows how to swear. He's even better at spinning them to motivate the troops, without telling them what they really mean or what he's really trying to do.
Patrick Allen wrote on April 10, 2007 7:13 PM:In Oregon, no matter how your ballot is turned it, it is individually matched to your signature filed with your voter registration. It is simply not possible to vote more than once. I can't imagine a more secure system than our vote-by-mail system.
J Marra wrote on April 10, 2007 7:15 PM:"Rests on the base of election fraud"--what the hell does THAT mean? Are they talking about the 1960 election, or perhaps Chicago mayoral elections?
Nonetheless, look to this to become a new GOP phrase, like "the pleasure of the president."
EH wrote on April 10, 2007 7:16 PM:Okay, let me see if I have this right: The top Republican political strategist is obsessed with voting fraud, yet it's the Democratic party who "rests on the base of election fraud."
Right.
"And I don't care whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, a vegetarian or a beef-eater, this is an issue that ought to concern you because, at the heart of it, our democracy depends upon the integrity of the ballot place."
I'd say the integrity of the people who make it into office is more important than the means by which they got there. I'm not saying that vote integrity isn't important, but I'd rather have a good person elected badly than a despot elected cleanly. By my lens Karl has some misplaced priorities here (quiet in the peanut gallery).
"And I'm really worried about online voting, because we do not know all the ways that one can jimmy the system."
This seems to be an important point for him.
rob wrote on April 10, 2007 7:24 PM:Karl rove is not a genius. His true strength is absence of conscience. He is the king of chicken shit tactics. That is why he fits in so well with this fraud of an administration. I believe his objective was to build a phony case for voter fraud by Democrats so that when the Republicans commit voter fraud, which I believe they do and will, it will then look to the naive to be both sides accusing each other, and written off to partisan politics without foundation. This DOJ thing has his stinky fingerprints all over it, and I am counting on Leahy to nail his lily white doughy ass to the wall.
Rob in Dallas
BroD wrote on April 10, 2007 7:30 PM:We need a fact check squad to follow these guys arount to all of these cozy venues just to keep track of all the misinforamtion.
Anonymous wrote on April 10, 2007 7:30 PM:He's a turd.
Jean2k wrote on April 10, 2007 7:32 PM:My dream is to see him convicted of a major felony before I die.
What is especially evil about this speech is that the real intents are disguised in patriotic clothing. The audience understands the coded message, but the language gives the message, ahem, respectability.
For Karl Rove, of all people, to preach about election fairness and the will of the people, well that is just the height of hypocrisy and the depth of evil.
JB wrote on April 10, 2007 7:41 PM:This is in response to EH's observation: "I'd rather have a good person elected badly than a despot elected cleanly." I could not disagree more strenuously. Process matters -- that's what democracy is all about. A despot elected cleanly is a despot who managed to indisputably win the (electoral?) majority of hearts and minds...if we get such an individual, that's truly what we collectively deserve.
The Rovian evil is not an overarching concern with voter fraud, but the selective and disingenuous way in which he focuses that concern to disenfranchise those voters who would pull a lever for other than Rove's man/woman. Literacy tests at the polls outlawed? "Voting Fraud" is Karl's ugly (and seemingly more P.C.) successor.
RT wrote on April 10, 2007 7:42 PM:"We are, in some parts of the country, I'm afraid to say, beginning to look like we have elections like those run in countries where they guys in charge are, you know, colonels in mirrored sunglasses."
Yeah, when people are indicted or not as it suits the electoral convenience of the party in power, it's a lot like living in a country where colonels in mirrored sunglasses are running things.
But Rove always did know how to BS as if his side's weakness was actually the other side's.
nice wrote on April 10, 2007 7:59 PM:My parents are Republican activists and attorneys, and every national election they get instructions from some mysterious source to fly out to different parts of the country to serve as election "challengers." They get reimbursed fairly generously for their travel expenses and time. They won't tell me where they get their marching orders and money from, but I'm sure it's tied in to Rove's office and the RNC somehow. TPMuckraker should look into this angle of the story.
LS wrote on April 10, 2007 8:15 PM:I don't know if you've checked this out yet (same server as GWB43, etc.,:
http://www.technomania.com/RelatedCompanies.asp
It says right there that they did complex internet work for the WH. Cruise the whole site. Oh my.
RandyBastard wrote on April 10, 2007 8:29 PM:What bothers me the most about this is their firm belief that the Democratic party is based on a foundation of voter fraud.
Then I ponder on my own firmly-held beliefs of Republican voter suppression.
Laying aside for a moment which side is right or wrong, I think this trench-war thinking is going to kill this country.
PO wrote on April 10, 2007 8:31 PM:I agree with you, Karl. Except, the guys in the sunglasses are wearing elephants on their lapels and they have you on speed-dial.
tbhull wrote on April 10, 2007 8:34 PM:100 years ago KR would be cleaning up the perceived massive black on white rape problem in the South, all while his good old buds regularly got drunk on Jax beer and went on nightly lynching outings for shits and giggles. Time to ride this guy out of DC on a rail covered in tar and feathers.
orionATL wrote on April 10, 2007 8:48 PM:colonel rove,
colonel karl christian rove,
votesreicht.
the guy who fixes elections from computers in the white house basement, or so he says.
but i'm sure he was just kidding.
JE wrote on April 10, 2007 8:53 PM:No seems to pick up on the most chilling (and telling) part of his speech (emphasis added): "The efforts in St. Louis to keep the polls opened -- open in selected precincts -- I mean, I would love to have that happen *as long, as I could pick the precincts*."
So it's only OK to keep a polling place open if KR gets to pick it, eh?
Maxie Smart wrote on April 10, 2007 8:54 PM:This is an overdue angle for you guys. Digby's been discussing it for months, ever since Rove gave the speech and repeatedly since the doj scandal broke. It's good to see it get more exposure.
If you want to tie up some loose ends on this, read this recent digby post about how the RNLA came into being.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/gop-voting-integrity-by-digby.html
orionATL wrote on April 10, 2007 8:56 PM:rob-
right on!
i would add:
rove is an emotional adolescent playing political games with an entire nation, just as he did with high school and college elections.
Agathena wrote on April 10, 2007 9:06 PM:One hundred lawyers in one county in Oregon and Rove sez "we've got to do more about it." The lawyers were sent out to intimidate.
And yet all the glitches in Ohio ended up favoring Bush, geez Democrats ought to send in more lawyers.
code word: poison
jill wrote on April 10, 2007 9:10 PM:Exactly!
I live in Philadelphia and I have never heard that 100% of the adults are registered. Why do I work so hard to register voters if they are all registered already? Proof please Mr. Rove.
GWN wrote on April 10, 2007 9:18 PM:"We are, in some parts of the country, I'm afraid to say, beginning to look like we have elections like those run in countries where they guys in charge are, you know, colonels in mirrored sunglasses."
Well he got that part right and he put the US there.
code: glass
Anonymous wrote on April 10, 2007 9:19 PM:ROVE: "the attempts, in the aftermath of the 2000 election to disqualify military voters in Florida"
The issue in Florida in 2000 was that absentee votes from the military serving abroad were coming in two weeks after the election a) without any date stamped on them, or b) postmarked days after Election Day.
I don't care if you are serving the nation overseas...you cannot vote after the polls have closed, especially when the margin of victory is so small that you and your battalion could swing an entire presidential election.
SS wrote on April 10, 2007 9:22 PM:The Lady doth Protest too much.
Rove needs to be heard as the loudest voice against voter fraud, because voter fraud is his business.
Eliminate Voters, Reduce Rights, Cage Outcomes, Lie about Candidates, Intimidate at the Polls and, when needed, "tune the results"
All of the e-Voting manufacturers are deeply GOP and some of them Christian Fascists. They build the system which allow Rove to tune any election to the final percentage. Make every race seem close, make every result produce the outcome he wishes.
Rove's cares about voting rights are like the Wolf wearing Grandmother's hollowed out skin protesting her love for Red Riding Hood.
Al in Austex wrote on April 10, 2007 9:26 PM:I betcha dollars to donuts that there is already a whole bunch of "stuff " already discovered and tabulated by those smart hardworking Hill Staffers that work for Commitee Heads Conyers & Leahy .
shystr wrote on April 10, 2007 9:42 PM:And TurdBlossom compounded the NeoThug problems by making very sure to personally piss off some very important players that know exactly where the rest of the other "stuff" is buried that the Hill Staffers need to trigger Impeachment for the whole BushCo enterprise - Important players like the Station Chief San Diego for the FBI ,and eight very respected USA Attorneys. The TurdMaster needs to remember that Political Fragging & Friendly Fire can & will be returned in kind. Don't believe so .. go ask Bud Cummins or Larry Wilkinson..
So "...five wards in the city of Milwaukee have more voters than adults", huh? Yeah, right.
Orwell's Intuition wrote on April 10, 2007 9:45 PM:As Rove knows fully well, although there were problems in the City of Milwaukee during the 2004 election (the City's election commissioner was not prepared for the level of turnout) a federal/state/local task force largely headed by "loyal Bushie" U.S. Attorney Steven Biskupic established there was no significant voter fraud conspiracy in Wisconsin.
Not only was Rove fully aware that no serious fraud was found in Milwaukee, he also actively lobbied (apparently) to punish Atty. Biskupic for failing to deliver voter fraud indictments:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=588156
Biskupic DID charge about ten people with illegally voting while serving felony sentences, but even some of these charges were dropped because those charged were not shown to be aware they were disenfranchised. One man charged, for example, had used his Department of Corrections offender I.D. card to register, something he probably would not have done if he were trying to conceal his felony conviction.
Since Wisconsin allows voters to register and vote on election day (to make it possible for as many citizens to vote as possible) it is hard to reliably compare numbers registered BEFORE the election, with those who actually cast a ballot.
From 10/22/2004 article:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/state/2004-10-22-voter-fraud_x.htm
"Arizona-based Sproul & Associates is under investigation in Oregon and Nevada over claims that canvassers hired by the company were instructed to register only Republicans and to get rid of registration forms completed by Democrats."
Remember Sproul? Crooked as a dog's hind leg, spreading election fraud across the country. Sproul & Associates is a GOP-funded company. By the way, Sproul and Rove yukked it up at the White House Christmas party in 2005.
Code word: shoe. As in, if the shoe fits, Rove, shove it.
Orwell's Intuition wrote on April 10, 2007 9:47 PM:Make that 2004 Christmas party.
By the way, Sproul apparently ended up untouchable. I wonder who the U.S. Attorney was who handled that case.
Sue wrote on April 10, 2007 9:48 PM:This is such classic Rove! In order to keep attention off of Republican wrongdoing, accuse the Dems of doing the exact thing that the Repugs are actually doing (which is election fraud!) Rove is so deceitful and destructive to decent people I don't know how he can live with himself. I guess it's not that difficult when you're a psychopath.
Sheila Condit wrote on April 10, 2007 9:49 PM:I'd say the integrity of the people who make it into office is more important than the means by which they got there. I'm not saying that vote integrity isn't important, but I'd rather have a good person elected badly than a despot elected cleanly. By my lens Karl has some misplaced priorities here (quiet in the peanut gallery).
Posted by: EH
EH, you sound like Karl's kind of guy with this one.
Buck wrote on April 10, 2007 9:59 PM:You know, the idea of the democratic republic we inhabit is that the MAJORITY rules. Now, I'm not saying I'd be keen on hanging around in a genuinely elevated fascist regime (I'm thoroughly convinced the current fascist state rose as a result of a coup BOTH times). That's the deal, though.
The removal of the of the people, by the people, for the people stuff is exactly what has screwed us.
Rove, like you, implicitly condones criminal behavior to put the "right" people in control. (He even conjures phony boogeymen to rationalize this jackdawed crap. My fraud 's better than your fraud.)
I'll give you this, you don't try to put a spin on your perspective.
There aren't any "right" crooks, EH.
There's no need to be in a hurry to take down Rove now. It certainly won't do any good to have a lot of work go down the drain due to a pardon.
When we have our own guys in place, we can have all the evidence in place and there will be nowhere to hide.
Slow and easy.
cube3u wrote on April 10, 2007 10:00 PM:Democrats need to get competent folks on the local Election Boards. The problems in St. Louis were traced to the Election Board REMOVING whole sections of legitimate voters--and these folks were unable to vote even though they were legitimately registered and on the rolls before the elimination.
The voter rolls are not being purged effectively when folks die or move away because the various datebases aren't capable of a match-up. This gives rise to the numbers that Rove quotes here. It's a problem with the voter rolls and Election Board oversight and NOT FRAUD. Rove is a moron, but he is an effective one. Until local Democrats get good folks onto these Boards--and not realtors as is common here--this type of thing will continue.
Andrew Goddard wrote on April 10, 2007 10:06 PM:Rove seems to be paving the way for the next few years of talking points. Remember the, "liberal media," mantra? When the time came to mount a challenge against any media reports, the defenses were already in place. Makes you wonder just how ugly they plan on making '08.
Orbinalis wrote on April 10, 2007 10:09 PM:Oh, you guys are so paranoid. Show me one election--just one!--in which Karl Rove is known to have used less than ethical practices, and there might be a reason to question his commitment to honest elections.
Hah! That's what I thought! Not one of you could stop with just one election! Therefore, like Brutus, Mr. Rove is a just and honorable man!
Code word is "soap".
Jake Bryan wrote on April 10, 2007 10:11 PM:And, among all his various charges and proposals, why does Rove say nary a word about one of the most important ways of eliminating voter fraud -- having a verifiable paper trail for each ballot?
As SS implied, they are making all the noise about fraud in who casts a ballot, but that's just cover noise to keep people from doing anything about the accurate counting of the ballots which are cast.
Rob wrote on April 10, 2007 10:37 PM:Oh, you guys are so paranoid. Show me one election--just one!--in which Karl Rove is known to have used less than ethical practices,
Lionel wrote on April 10, 2007 10:41 PM:Code word is "soap".
Posted by: Orbinalis
----------------------------
The 2000 Republican Primary in South Carolina where he initiated a phone blitz that inferred that John McCain had an illigitimate black baby?
I'm a lawyer in Philadelphia. Rove is *way* off. This is a common Republican trope in Pennsylvania. Philadelphia has an extremely high rate of both voter registration and of voting. This has nothing to do with massive voter fraud-- it has everything to do with the fact that there are two very good political machines here. I said two. There aren't many Republicans in Philadelphia, true, but they vote at a higher rate than Democrats. (The actual registration numbers are about 75% Dem, 15% Rep, and 10% other or independent) In 2004, the Philadelphia Democrats turned out 542,000 people to vote for Kerry, out of 761,000 Democrats (71% turnout). The Republicans turned out 130,099 voters for W. There are just under 161,000 registered Republicans. That's 81% of Republicans. If 71% turnout among Democrats is fraud, what's 81% of Republicans?
Orbinalis Jr. wrote on April 10, 2007 10:42 PM:The 2000 Republican Primary in South Carolina where he initiated a phone blitz that inferred that John McCain had an illigitimate black baby?
Posted by: Rob
Date: April 10, 2007 10:37 PM
Does John McCain in fact have an illegitimate black baby? If so KR would argue this is at least ethical. After all, how can spreading truth be unethical?
will white wrote on April 10, 2007 10:44 PM:As much as I don't want to, I've got to agree with Karl on this one ... I really don't see a problem with having to show an ID for an election, so long as the election provides for some type of free ID card for those that cannot afford a drivers license ... seems like the states could make ID cards free and charge for drivers licenses as well allow voters to register at the same time, and people could show their ID before voting ... for the sake of trust and honesty, why not ... I think that this is a very small problem in reality, but why give the doubt to the republicans to throw around?
Rufus T. Firefly wrote on April 10, 2007 10:53 PM:Here are the states Rove specifically mentions as "competitive": Pennsylvania, Michigan, Ohio, maybe not Florida, Colorado, Arkansas, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nevada, Iowa, New Mexico. He also complains about Washington and Missouri, which could swing in a presidential election
Here are states in which a US Attorney recently resigned and was replaced with a "loyal Bushie" from DOJ (often from the Voter Suppression ... oops, Civil Rights Division), or was fired in the purge: Michigan (WD), Florida (SD), Arkansas, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, Washington, Missouri (WD).
Here is a state that could swing in a presidential election and in which the US Attorney was investigating a congressman (Renzi), where the US Attorney got fired: Arizona.
Here is a state in which the US Attorney was investigating serious corruption in the Administration and among Congressional Republicans that could swing a presidential election, and got fired: California (SD).
Put it together with. among other things, the dead-of-night provisions in the PATRIOT Act that enabled them to avoid Senate confirmation and to appoint non-resident US Attorneys; the baseless federal prosecutions of Democrats by loyal Bushie prosecutors in some of these districts and the fury at now-fired US Attorneys who refused to bring indictments or prosecute phantom "voter fraud" in others before the 2006 elections; the fact that only one fired US Attorney (California ND) was from an electorally "safe" district in which no known cases with obvious electoral implications were being pursued; and what do you have?
You have a conspiracy headed by Karl Rove to use the prosecution power of Department of Justice to manipulate electoral politics in favor of the Repuplican Party. If I'm John Conyers, this is the common thread I'm looking for in my investigation.
Chuck wrote on April 10, 2007 11:05 PM:In any democracy it should be a moral imperative to encourage and assist citizens to vote. But here we have the example of individuals and, indeed, whole groups, who have a goal to suppress the votes of otherwise qualified citizens merely because of the likelihood of party affliation or beliefs.
Wretched Refuse wrote on April 10, 2007 11:21 PM:In Oregon, no matter how your ballot is turned it, it is individually matched to your signature filed with your voter registration. It is simply not possible to vote more than once. I can't imagine a more secure system than our vote-by-mail system.
Posted by: Patrick Allen
And who is to say it was received in the mail by them?
Wretched Refuse wrote on April 10, 2007 11:28 PM:Democrats need to get competent folks on the local Election Boards. The problems in St. Louis were traced to the Election Board REMOVING whole sections of legitimate voters--and these folks were unable to vote even though they were legitimately registered and on the rolls before the elimination.
The voter rolls are not being purged effectively when folks die or move away because the various datebases aren't capable of a match-up. This gives rise to the numbers that Rove quotes here. It's a problem with the voter rolls and Election Board oversight and NOT FRAUD. Rove is a moron, but he is an effective one. Until local Democrats get good folks onto these Boards--and not realtors as is common here--this type of thing will continue.
Posted by: cube3u
In NY, you HAVE to be on either of the two parties to participate in the election validation process. I called and volunteer, and was asked, which party I belonged to? I said neither, I am not registered as any party, and they said I had to be in either the Dem or Repu party to help at the pols.
Disgusting.
Code word= bucket Like the bucket of shit the Repubs have turned this country into.
ShorelineCT wrote on April 10, 2007 11:38 PM:jill and Lionel Re:Philly
Here is a tidbit I found on some R's rant:
Fair Election, Philly Style
Justin Daar
American Chronicle
Justin is a freelance writer living in the Philadephia area with his wife, Erin, and twin children.
March 22, 2006
...The total number of registered voters in Philadelphia is 1,066,222, however the Census estimate of the total voting age population in Philadelphia is, 1,107,696. This means that just 40,000, or 4%, of the voting population is unregistered in the entire city. So you can reasonably assume that in a random sampling of Philadelphians at least 80% would be registered voters...
Seems like the Census info "must" be bogus [L: your numbers are correct], right? How could all those people be registered to vote?
I think the answer is due to the high turnover, as Lionel points out, that causes lists to be not so updated - people don't get purged as fast. Does that mean people vote multiple times? I find that seems to be the real complaint of R's
ShorelineCT wrote on April 10, 2007 11:42 PM:American Center for Voting Rights
Here is another R scam.
ACVR, purportedly a non-partisan group, recently released a report that stated:
....The report finds that paid Democrat operatives were far more involved in voter intimidation and suppression activities than were their Republican counterparts during the 2004 presidential election.....
Turns out AVCR is run ONLY by R's! Surprise!
http://acepilots.com/mt/?p=1670
PTF wrote on April 10, 2007 11:49 PM:Rove himself likely committed voter fraud by voting in Texas while living in the District of Columbia.
The case was dismissed on a technicality.
Rove has never explained why he (and his wife) felt the need to claim a 2 bedroom cottage in Ingram, TX as their voting residence while living in a $1.3 million dollar house in DC year round.
http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/19078
ahem wrote on April 11, 2007 12:00 AM:Rufus has already been here, but let's spell it out:
Pennsylvania, -- ??
Michigan, -- Chiara fired
Ohio, -- Blackwell?
maybe not Florida, -- Acosta appointed to Miami from Civil Rights Division
Colorado, -- ??
Arkansas, -- Cummins / Griffin
Wisconsin, -- Biskupic, Georgia Thompson case
Minnesota, -- Rachel Paulose appointed
Nevada, -- Dan Bogden fired
Iowa, -- Matt Dummermuth, new appointment from Civil Rights Division (redacted in the doc-dump?)
New Mexico -- Iglesias fired
And let's not forget Jeff Taylor in DC, who'll be the US Attorney responsible for any contempt of Congress charge: a Hatch aide (like Sampson) and former counselor to Gonzo and Ashcroft.
Bugboy wrote on April 11, 2007 12:06 AM:Well, I'm sure there were some dirty tricks going on down here in FLA in 2004.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/22/florida.registration/index.html
I could smell it while it was going on. I distinctly remember thinking how odd it was that Democrats would be accused of this kind of voter fraud, I mean talk about diminishing returns. It didn't make sense.
code is pain as it causes pain in my brain
Christopher Davis wrote on April 11, 2007 12:14 AM:Why do Karl Rove's comments about "voter fraud" sound like Ted Haggard's comments about "homosexual activity"? ("It's a horrible thing and it's all being done by THEM OVER THERE.")
cube3u wrote on April 11, 2007 12:30 AM:Photo ID sounds like a simple idea UNTIL you get into what it means in practice.
State laws generally require one to get a new license with a new address within 30-60 days of a move. That applies even if the old license won't expire for another four years. It means standing in line, getting the photo, and paying a fee for a new license with the correct address.
Want to bet how many folks do that? Want to guess how many low income folks can take time off from a desperately needed job and then fork over a fee? Want to guess how many low income folks move frequently? Even tight-fisted high income folks will wait until the license is due to expire.
When I asked our local Election Board if we were to compare the address on the license to the voter rolls, the answer from the Republican and the Democrat was "Of course because they will match." So the Democrat didn't even see an issue with this.
It won't just be the photo--the address will be checked, too. Although our Board is very coy about this--claiming wrong addresses on the license is "simply not a problem".
How many of you have waited to change the address on your license?
Bob Carson wrote on April 11, 2007 12:32 AM:I live in Oregon too and love the vote by mail system. If Rove hates it so much we must be on to something great.
Anonymous wrote on April 11, 2007 12:34 AM:Ahem, I think you have to add:
Missouri -- Bradley J. Schlozman, the first PATRIOT Act appointment, from the Civil Rights Division. His predecessor, Graves, appears to have been one of the two targeted US Attorneys on Sampson's original "list" who left in early '06 before the firings. Check out http://www.firedupmissouri.com/graves_forced_out.
Rufus
SteinL wrote on April 11, 2007 12:55 AM:@ Rufus T. Firefly and Ahem
I was going to point out the interesting coincidence in the states listed by Rove as battlegrounds being the ones where USAttys have been under fire.
You both did an excellent job of it. It appears the White House is trying to stage a coup using the legal system to destroy the essence of a democracy: political representation and the right to vote.
Time for Mr. Rove to raise his hand, swear on the bible and start lying to Congress, I think. That man is Ernst Roehm.
anunymouse wrote on April 11, 2007 1:12 AM:In the end of the packet of "Fraud in Wisconsin 2004: A Timeline/Summary," did anyone notice the last two pages from DOJ dump 8-1?
There was this page which was printed from Rove's web browser??! http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/624/wisgopju7.jpg
Anonymous wrote on April 11, 2007 1:33 AM:"Rests on the base of election fraud"--what the hell does THAT mean? Are they talking about the 1960 election, or perhaps Chicago mayoral elections?"
What's really interesting about the 1960 election legend is that the whole story is never told. It's a Republican legend that's become accepted by everyone.
The whole story is that the Illinois election commission, controlled by Republicans, unanimously and rapidly certified the election as valid. The GOP dominated commission wanted no close scrutiny of the vote in Illinois because of the massive ballot box stuffing operation that Republicans ran in southern Illinois.
GoAwayRepugTrolls wrote on April 11, 2007 2:40 AM:The difference between the Republican assertion of voter fraud and Democrat assertion of election fraud is this: the former is a bald-faced LIE, and the latter is a well documented fact (see Mark Crispin Miller's "None Dare call it Stolen" in Harper's--
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/08/0080696
code: "design", as in "the attorney firings are part of a grand DESIGN of criminality and cronyism"
RickD wrote on April 11, 2007 6:28 AM:It's kind of sad that the Republicans feel that the only way they can win elections is through voter suppression. This attitude reveals an inner belief that, if everybody had complete information about what the Republicans were doing, the majority would be consistently voting against them, and Democrats would be in power.
nofltwlt wrote on April 11, 2007 7:22 AM:Rove and the GOP are quilty of voter fraud, not their opponents. Just look at Ken Blackwell of Ohio who conducted an all out campaign to purge Democratic voters from voting rolls and prevent registered Democrats from voting.
Then look at the newly appointed U.S. Attorney in Griffiths, a friend of Rove, who purged 70,000 people from voter rolls - all likely to vote democratic.
Frank Wright wrote on April 11, 2007 7:43 AM:"We’re, in some parts of the country, I’m afraid to say, beginning to look like we have elections like those run in countries where the guys in charge are colonels in mirrored sunglasses"
Rove needs to defend this statement with examples. Can he? He needs to be confronted under oath to back it up or to back down. There is a great opportunity here. Hammer away.
ich bin ein portlander wrote on April 11, 2007 7:45 AM:rove's comments about oregon's vote by mail system are absurd.
Richard L. Adlof wrote on April 11, 2007 8:40 AM:Where is my public financing of political campaigns and paper trail balloting legistlation? Why is this not on anyone's radar. We need to frame this arguement not them.
Lionel wrote on April 11, 2007 8:44 AM:2004 was a really, really important election. My division, in Center City Philadelphia, had nearly 100% turnout-- and that's with a ward leader and committeepersons who don't have a door-to-door operation. (In other parts of the city, the machine literally goes door to door and gives people rides to the polls if necessary) What 100% turnout means, in practice, is that about 750 voters out of the 1000 "registered" showed up. The other 250 were old addresses-- dead people, contrary to Karl Rove's theories of Democratic turnout, are almost instantly purged-- the City Commissioner's office does an excellent job. (eg, my mom died in February 2001, and her registration was out of the books by the primary in May. For a city of 1.5 million people, that's astonishingly fast; faster than say, the City updates property tax records or even water bills after a property is sold.)
The ID thing is a trope. Voter fraud of that nature is hard work. In more than 15 years of either working at the polls or watching polls, I have seen exactly one instance of someone trying to vote under someone elses' name. One. And it wasn't a particularly intelligent or organized attempt. If the government wants to issue free ID, fine-- but even then, keep in mind, in Philadelphia, each precinct is no more than 1000 people, who are your neighbors. It's almost impossible that you'll see someone at the polls that you've never seen before, unless they've just moved into the precinct (at which point they're already required to show some ID-- voter card, utility bill, etc.). All the ID card thing does is add another barrier to voting. And it's the poor and uneducated who are most likely to not be able to produce ID.
logorrhea wrote on April 11, 2007 9:13 AM:According to the Republican National Lawyers Association website (www.rnla.org), one of their missions is "Advancing Open, Fair and Honest Elections". After taking a quick look at their site, I believe that is their KEY mission. Their membership application has several questions about the applicant's willingness to become involved in election monitoring and so forth.
The claims about voter fraud in Rove's speech are just red meat to motivate these lawyers to engage in voter suppression.
Security Code: right
ahem wrote on April 11, 2007 10:34 AM:The ID thing is a trope. Voter fraud of that nature is hard work. In more than 15 years of either working at the polls or watching polls, I have seen exactly one instance of someone trying to vote under someone elses' name. One.
The basic logic works against the Rovian argument: the risks for voting under another name, or when not eligible, far outweigh the rewards. There aren't many places where an individual can be placed under as much institutional scrutiny as at the ballot box.
Keith Ellison brought this up when the usual suspects (i.e. Brian Bilbray and xenophobic fuck Steve King of Iowa) claimed there was a potential crisis from non-citizens voting. Uh, no. The numbers say the opposite, and common sense backs it up: if you're an illegal immigrant living in the shadows, the last thing you're going to do is show up to vote.
Fiddling the count, shifting the polling places, failing to provide enough machines, sending mailouts to naturalized citizens that say immigrants can't vote... much bigger reward, much smaller risk. And Karl's just mad with Oregon because he hasn't worked out how to rig it.
(This isn't to say that postal voting is by definition more secure, as the UK has shown recently. It's just that Oregon does it in a smart way.)
quietelm wrote on April 11, 2007 10:38 AM:When I googled for some more information I found the following brief report from Penn researchers: http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/article.php?id=112 Perhaps this is a source for Rove's remarks. Note that it doesn't talk about Philadelphia. Alaska and Montana are mentioned as well. Not purging rolls when people die or move is probably the issue. There's opportunity for fraud, but how many people who move actually try to vote in both their old location and their new location.
ColumbiaDuck wrote on April 11, 2007 11:29 AM:I worked on the 2000 elections in Portland and Rove's statements are absolute crap. As a previous poster noted, you didn't get ballots from Libraries - you could turn them in there at secure drop boxes. If you didn't get a ballot, the only place you could get a replacement ballot was the county clerks office - of which there was one. On election day, there was a line around the block of people waiting to get a ballot because they hadn't received theirs in the mail. Voter fraud wasn't an issue because of the signature IDs. However, there were Republican operatives who were going up and down the line telling people (who'd been waiting for hours) that if they didn't get a ballot before 8pm they couldn't vote. They were trying to discourage voters from casting ballots, in essence. Finally, a democrat spoke with a county official to assertain that this was not accurate and put on a poster board stating "if you are in line by 8pm you can vote."
There were reports of the same things happening in Eugene Oregon (coindentally another Democratic stronghold).
Yellow Dog wrote on April 11, 2007 3:02 PM:nice: Yeah, they tried that "challenger" trick in the black precincts of Louisville in 2004.
The repugs were having trouble finding republican volunteers willing to leave their gated subdivisions to stand all day in black polling places and challenge black voters.
In their desperation to find volunteers, word got out and dems raised holy hell. In about an hour, Louisville dems rounded up volunteers in every precinct to challenge the challengers. Election judges announced that only challengers who actually lived in that precinct would be allowed in the polling place.
When the repugs failed to find any republicans actually registered in those precincts, the plan fell apart.
Tell your parents that Kentucky dems have been spreading the word about how to fight this tactic, and that next time they'll have to play their cute little challenge games in their own republican precincts.
George Kuhn wrote on April 11, 2007 3:54 PM:A New Yorkr cartoon, several years ago, summed up my opinion of Buch/Cheney/Rove et al:
A cop car is driving along a street in Manhatten late at night. Where
George Kuhn wrote on April 11, 2007 3:57 PM:one expects to see the word POLICE printed on the car, the word CROOKS takes its place. The cop is sitting in the back and the masked men are driving. A pedestrian striding how looks at the car in worried amazement.
A New Yorkr cartoon, several years ago, summed up my opinion of Buch/Cheney/Rove et al:
A cop car is driving along a street in Manhatten late at night. Where
one expects to see the word POLICE printed on the car, the word CROOKS takes its place. The cop is sitting in the back and the masked men are driving. A pedestrian striding home looks at the car in worried amazement.
Sorry for the repetition. I had a typo in the original message
Posted by: George Kuhn
George Kuhn wrote on April 11, 2007 3:58 PM:Date: April 11, 2007 03:54 PM
A New Yorkr cartoon, several years ago, summed up my opinion of Buch/Cheney/Rove et al:
A cop car is driving along a street in Manhatten late at night. Where one expects to see the word POLICE printed on the car, the word CROOKS takes its place. The cop is sitting in the back and the masked men are driving. A pedestrian striding home looks at the car in worried amazement.
Sorry for the repetition. I had a typo in the original message
Posted by: George Kuhn
George Kuhn wrote on April 11, 2007 3:59 PM:Date: April 11, 2007 03:54 PM
A New Yorkr cartoon, several years ago, summed up my opinion of Buch/Cheney/Rove et al:
A cop car is driving along a street in Manhatten late at night. Where one expects to see the word POLICE printed on the car, the word CROOKS takes its place. The cop is sitting in the back and the masked men are driving. A pedestrian striding home looks at the car in worried amazement.
Sorry for the repetition. I had a typo in the original message
Posted by: George Kuhn
John Carragee wrote on April 11, 2007 9:41 PM:Date: April 11, 2007 03:54 PM
Rove: We are, in some parts of the country, I'm afraid to say, beginning to look like we have elections like those run in countries where the guys in charge are, you know, colonels in mirrored sunglasses.
**********
What I like best about the Rove remark is the undercurrent of rascism. Those colonels like Hugo Chavez, Cesar Chavez, they're all the same greasy foreigners, right? "We don't neeeed no steeenkin' Voter ID badges."
Rove, of course, thinks he's Bogart.
klank wrote on April 12, 2007 1:54 AM:rove would never want real investigation of voter fraud but to deflect real concerns that the Bush crime famiily was stealing elections (including concerns in the bush voter base) he would exaggerate any possibility of Dem vote fraud. since they like two-fers and three-fers he would also see it as a way to push for orwellian ID legislation, etc.
rove's most important propaganda tool is talk radio- without it he and his bosses would not have achieved this disaster, and that's the where the first clues to what they want to do show up, and usually have. but in nm it backfired because the dittoheaded GOP listeners to the local 770 KKOB blowhards believed the dem vote fraud bushit enough to put pressure on Domenici and Wilson!
Don wrote on April 12, 2007 8:36 AM:I live in Oregon, so Rove's comments about this state caught my attention. On top of the comments made already about how well our mail-in vote system works, the Secretary of State of Oregon works hard to keep the elections clean. I can't recall ever hearing of a single incident of suspected voter fraud.
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