Comments (160)

legion wrote on April 12, 2007 4:23 PM:

"but he did acknowledge that one possible explanation is that Mr. Rove personally deleted his e-mails from the RNC server."

Wow. That right there ought to generate a federal Grand Jury all by itself.

"At some point in 2005, the RNC commenced an automatic archive policy for Mr. Rove, but not for any other White House officials. According to Mr. Kelner, this archive policy removed Mr. Rove's ability to personally delete his e-mails from the RNC server."

Ha ha! Even the RNC doesn't truct Rove not to screw them! Priceless!

CO Democrat wrote on April 12, 2007 4:35 PM:

Hmm, lessee. Anything in particular happen between those two dates? August 2004 and sometime in 2005? Gee, can't think of anything except, except maybe a little election.

I'm no conspiracy guy, but what the hell is in that batch of emails from the Fall of 2004?

Phill wrote on April 12, 2007 4:35 PM:

If the RNC commenced an archival program for Rove starting sometime in 2005, then shouldn't they have all of Rove's emails relating to the USA purge, which was mostly in 2006 and 2007?

Punchy wrote on April 12, 2007 4:35 PM:

Damn...this one is indefensible. They'll got the "Clinton did it" lie, they'll probably throw in a "it was all an accident", and when that fails, I'm SURE the email archivist was some rogue bad apple who entered the building at nite just to delete Rove's emails all by himself.

Not sure how you spin this one in the R's favor. Obstruction of justice, methinks.

bordersmuggler wrote on April 12, 2007 4:36 PM:

From a post to an earlier thread today:

"Karl cut his teeth on database management and data mining. Over the last six years, as a SCI-cleared government employee, he's had access to ALL of the data. Everything. Intel. Corporate records. Government records. Tax records. Phone records (through DOJ/Patriot Act). Voter rolls. Everything.

Don't tell me you don't think he's used it. Remember, he had "the math" for the 2006 election."

He may have had "the math," but Rove miscalculated slightly in Virginia where Jim Webb eked out the narrow victory that gave Democrats the majority and the opportunity to open these investigations. Whoops!

Anonymous wrote on April 12, 2007 4:36 PM:

Is the RNC getting into RICO territory?

DjW wrote on April 12, 2007 4:37 PM:

...Mr. Rove personally deleted his e-mails from the RNC server.

Wow. So lil' Karl is suddenly an IT professional? Do they actually expect us to believe this crap?

Andrew W wrote on April 12, 2007 4:37 PM:

So key question: was the "automatic archive policy for Mr. Rove" communicated to Mr. Rove?

That is, are there copies of Rove e-mails that Rove himself thinks he deleted but, in actuality, didn't? Now that would be fun.

gcs wrote on April 12, 2007 4:38 PM:

Don't miss this priceless gem -

"The RNC had a "document retention" policy, that purged all e-mails from RNC e-mail accounts and the RNC server that were more than 30 days old. What gigantic balls does it take to automatically purge emails, and call that "document retention"?

I mean Jesus Christ. All we have to do is replace the Republican's words with the precise opposite and we can see what they really mean: Clean Air, Healthy Forests, No Child Left Behind, Operation Iraqi Freedom, voter fraud....does it ever end?

Can we please just issue the orange jumpsuits?

MarkC wrote on April 12, 2007 4:41 PM:

Is that around the time Karl was groveling and pleading not to be indicted by Fitz? Was the RNC archiver the equivalent of a breathalizer attached to his transmission?

JT wrote on April 12, 2007 4:42 PM:

So... reading this carefully... the RNC changed their retention policy in response to "an investigation", but that Rove abused it anyway and deleted several months of email surrounding the 2004 presidential election. Possibly having detected this, the RNC began a special policy of archiving ALL of Rove's email - possibly without telling him.

The RNC lawyers may have saved the RNC and collected all the evidence needed to thoroughly fuck Rove. Ah, the instinct for self-preservation. As many in law enforcement know, it's the most reliable way to break apart a criminal conspiracy.

code word tight. as in the noose around Rove's neck.

Seitz wrote on April 12, 2007 4:45 PM:

Subpoena Rove to testify about this. Limit it to questions about his RNC emails. I can't see how executive privilege could be used to prevent that testimony.

Security Code: Smell. Sure does.

mfs wrote on April 12, 2007 4:45 PM:

Almost always email messages are stored in an SQL database, and one of that size and importance is generally backed up on a timed basis - every hour or so. Further, a copy of those back-up media are generally stored off site. Unless someone went to a good bit of concerted effort those messages probably exists on a backup 'tape' somewhere.

Anonymous wrote on April 12, 2007 4:45 PM:

gcs: Document retention policies in IT usually specifiy how long documents are to be retained, with the default assumption that everything should be deleted eventually.

workaday joe wrote on April 12, 2007 4:46 PM:

Time for an indictment or two against the Mexican wing of Al Kida. You know, that ancient connection between the Catholic Church and radical ilsam. Spelling altered intentionally.

Rusty wrote on April 12, 2007 4:47 PM:

Sounds little bit like the RNC is throwing Rove under the bus. This is total bullshit. Time for Ken Melman to join club-subpoena. I'd lovely to see his smarmy-pasty white arse sitting in front of the Judiciary committee. This has obstruction of justice written ALL OVER IT. I think even the MSM will not let this slide past tonight.

goldberry wrote on April 12, 2007 4:49 PM:

Was Rove aware of the new retention policy? If so, he probably switched to a less secure server. I can't imagine he would have sent email to the RNC if he knew Fitz was trawling for messages.

Rick Davis wrote on April 12, 2007 4:49 PM:

Subpoenas for the protection all back up tapes of those systems need to be issued immediately.

mfs wrote on April 12, 2007 4:49 PM:

I should just mention also that just hitting the delete key on a message does not actually delete it, it just marks it for deletion and that would not be done until the purge command is issued where the database is re-written leaving out those marked for deletion. At that time the indexes are re-built. All that takes a bit of time and is not done each time an email is marked for deletion by a user. Only someone with sufficient rights can issue the purge command. That should not have been rove.

conscriptor wrote on April 12, 2007 4:49 PM:

holy crap - you think pig boy should roast now?

ahem wrote on April 12, 2007 4:53 PM:

Has Unka Karl been running a DOD-strength overwriting program on his hard drive's free space? Time to take command of his computer. Time to grab mail server logs. Time to treat the GOP-White House continuum to some big ol' computer forensics.

Bill wrote on April 12, 2007 4:53 PM:

I wonder if all those pre-2005 blackberry messages are stored somewhere in the NSA database?

wellstoner wrote on April 12, 2007 4:54 PM:

...

SO,

What does this mean?
WHat now?

anyone?

...

robert wrote on April 12, 2007 4:54 PM:

jason leopold was right.

skaren wrote on April 12, 2007 4:56 PM:

This all just helps the Dems in 08

And thank god for that !

Sojourner wrote on April 12, 2007 4:58 PM:

As I see it, the sh*t is hitting the fan. RNC is finding out that it is going to get hit due to some of Rove's shenanigans, and the entire Republican Party, as we know it, will likely cease to exist as people distance themselves from it. I would hate to be an elected official with the 'Republican' label right now.

The best thing for RNC to do is start cooperating!

Anthony wrote on April 12, 2007 4:59 PM:

"Mr. Rove personally deleted his e-mails from the RNC server."

I am still waiting for the frog march out of the White House everyone, but this can be a simple and true fact. If you have a POP account, and you check it with a client that loads the mail onto your own PC, the email on the server is easily (and commonly) deleted. It isn't rocket science. It is a built in feature of most POP clients to delete mail from the server once it has successfully downloaded. But - that doesn't mean that Rove isnt't the biggest threat to democracy since... well, Dick Cheney.

Mike wrote on April 12, 2007 5:00 PM:

I can't wait until I'm reading the stories about missing "O" keys on White House keyboards.

Matthew Giger wrote on April 12, 2007 5:01 PM:

Any missing emails from or to Rove will also have a corresponding copy on the recipient or sender's end. If those are missing, then you have a very good case for deliberate obstruction of justice.

Pardons all around is my guess.

Code word: shoe, of which the other has dropped

JPV wrote on April 12, 2007 5:01 PM:

I know exactly how to find his lost e-mail...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(FBI)

brat wrote on April 12, 2007 5:02 PM:

Here's an idea--Subpoena the NSA for the missing e-mails. Thanks to their extensive data mining efforts, they're bound to be on their servers (MEOW!).

global yokel wrote on April 12, 2007 5:02 PM:

I have a hunch that at the root of all this is the arrogant, hubristic assumption on the part of the Bushniks that they wouldn't lose the Congress in the mid-term elections, and thus there would be no oversight.

ImaThornInAlamo wrote on April 12, 2007 5:05 PM:

When things started getting really stinky shortly after 9/11, I remarked to my husband that what we really needed to unbundle the Bushie's dirty laundry was Karl Rove's laptop. Apparently that is still the case. Subpoena all of Karl's hard drives!

jacabo wrote on April 12, 2007 5:05 PM:

Rusty --- you beat me to this conclusion. I wonder if there are not a fair number of Republicans (including Establishment Republicans) who are fed up with Rove and the depths to which he has dragged the party. Would they be secretly pleased to see him dangling?

Here's to the coming intra-party civil war

swamp thing wrote on April 12, 2007 5:07 PM:

A bunch of people who are dumb enough to conduct politically sensitive and potentially incriminating conversations in traceable e-mail form are way too fucking dumb to run the country.

Christopher Wade wrote on April 12, 2007 5:08 PM:

if the emails were 'simply' deleted, and not 'securely' deleted...would'nt that mean that the 1s and 0s of the emails may yet be available on the drives (rnc, personal,yahoo, Gmail, whitehouse, whatev....every server, and PC).
This administration has been very flat footed (not that there's anything wrong with that) on every lil bit of tech thev' dealt with...
5 bucks says its all or mostly, or ...enough of 'it' there...

tbhull wrote on April 12, 2007 5:08 PM:

These e-mails exist on servers somewhere and they will be found piece by piece if necessary. This will be Rove's Waterloo.

Ellen wrote on April 12, 2007 5:11 PM:

Funny how we've all been freaking out about the government archiving all our emails, our web surfing trails, etc., and here is one little pig of a man who seems to think he is free and clear from a record of his wrong doing. Heh. Somehow, I just don't believe the records do not exist. The internet (God Bless ya Al), is designed to preserve all data ... somehow. Lol. This makes me giggle all the way down to my toes. Enterprising hackers, unite! Karl Rove is as evil a man as has walked the earth in the last century--all we need is black and white evidence, and he gets his. Maybe he can share a cell with those poor people he got put in prison for inadvertent vote infringements. God still loves us, hallelujah!

della Rovere wrote on April 12, 2007 5:11 PM:

isn't it about this time we hear from Broder and Ignatius and Richard Cohen and Fred Hiatt and the other "thinkers" at Washington Post on how the Democrats keep making mountains out of the clearly innocent little fun and foibles of our ponderously serious conservative and neoconservative and very conservative and compassionately conservative rulers (as opposed to the despicable and vile and impeachable crimes of Clinton). After all, it IS Clinton's fault.

Typical Beltway Media Whore wrote on April 12, 2007 5:12 PM:

This is good news for President Bush.

-

beowulf wrote on April 12, 2007 5:15 PM:

Come on, the NSA has copies of all of it. Blackbery is owned by a Canadian Company (RIM), their servers are in Canada. So anything that's sent or received by a Blackberry crosses an international border. The Bush Administration has taken the position they don't need warrants to monitor international email, so I'd be mightily surprised if the NSA doesn't scoop it all up.

A suspicious person would wonder if its a coincidence that the Blackberry servers are in a foreign country and yet its biggest customer is the United States government. The easiest way to decrypt anything is if the service or hardware provider (and RIM provides both) puts in a backdoor. The cell phone carriers have backdoors that allow law enforcement (once they've obtained a court order) to listen in on any encrypted call, I wonder if RIM has a similiar deal with the NSA.

Or, if the Echelon stories are true (US, Canadian, UK and Australian spy on each other to avoid domestic oversight), perhaps its RIM and the Canadian goverment that has a deal.

Shinobi wrote on April 12, 2007 5:16 PM:

Man, If I were a republican in office right now I would be trying so hard to Vote Bush&Co off the island (Or out of the "big tent"). It's disappointing because it is going to make it hard to elect another republican for a while, even if they might do a good job.

Code word: Face, as in, what repubs are desperate to save.

Anonymous wrote on April 12, 2007 5:17 PM:

"The RNC lawyers may have saved the RNC and collected all the evidence needed to thoroughly fuck Rove." JT, you summed it up in one sentence. Let's hope Rove is shitting himself right about now.

Didn't Rove say about someone (can't remember now just who), "we're gonna fuck him like he's never been fucked before" ??

What goes around comes around, Karl. Karma's a bitch.

anwaya wrote on April 12, 2007 5:21 PM:

Don't think of it as Impeachment. Think of it as appointing President Pelosi.

Anonymous wrote on April 12, 2007 5:21 PM:

Before we all break out the cigars, let's recall that everyone was convinced Turd Blossom was going to get pinched by Fitz. No dice.

Not trying to spoil the fun, but just want to reiterate that there's more work to be done.

In fact, now's as good as time as any to quote the immortal renegade plumber Harry Tuttle, and remind us that "we're all in this together!"

jeffgee wrote on April 12, 2007 5:23 PM:

The new Snow Queen of the Press Room Dana Perino, put on her big girl panties and said "I don't know if Sen. Leahy is also an [information technology] expert, but I can assure you that we are working very hard to make sure that we find the e-mails that were potentially lost and that we are responsive to the requests, if there are responses that need providing, on the U.S. attorneys matters," she said. "We're being very honest and forthcoming."
Rrright. Trust us.

jimi13 wrote on April 12, 2007 5:25 PM:

Karl Rove, you're goin' to prison!

awesome!!!

Via wrote on April 12, 2007 5:26 PM:

p.s. Paul, you rock.

Nina wrote on April 12, 2007 5:26 PM:

You know, I'm sorry, but I read all these exclamations of outrage at Rove's apparently lawless behavior, with comments of expectations of "getting to the bottom" of this scandal... and I just have to say that I'm suffering from outrage burnout. I don't think Rove will be called to account; I think he's craftier than any Democrat out to pin him down; I believe that a person like Rove, i.e. of such deep political willfulness, is incapable of remorse or a sense of conscience. Sadly, I believe this fiasco will probably all end coincident with the end of the administration, and no sooner. Do we really believe there is enough political will out there to hold Bush Inc. accountable? PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm not telling you what my code word is.

cevrero wrote on April 12, 2007 5:29 PM:

Bringing Integrity back into the Whitehouse might be another reocurring theme in 08 for Repubs and Dems alike. Bush is the greatest is he?

E-dog9 wrote on April 12, 2007 5:30 PM:

"Do we really believe there is enough political will out there to hold Bush Inc. accountable? PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm not telling you what my code word is."

Depends on what the Emails turn-up. Plus with the army about ready to break, R's looking to turn the page, people of all sorts will become much more expedient in the dismissal of W.

United, I stand alone against collectivism wrote on April 12, 2007 5:35 PM:

After Fitz gave turd-boy a free pass, I kept wondering to myself just how much rope this guy might need to hang himself. So now I figure maybe this, and, oh, I dunno, maybe publicly beheading a teenage, immigrant, welfare mother on drugs while calling her a "nappy headed ho" might get him a slap on the wrist. And then a pardon. Wake up America, and smell the Kool-aid.

Sardonica wrote on April 12, 2007 5:36 PM:

The Bunnies are hopping, Karl. It's springtime.

Feel the heat yet Karl?

Gonna be a long hot summer.

The fourth horseman wrote on April 12, 2007 5:38 PM:

The backup tapes may be of limited value since any backup would probably have been done at night with the mailserver being relatively quiet (other than from porn spam coming in). Any incriminating email threads would have been long gone. Still worth a shot.

Security Code: crime - of which certainly appears to be the case

kyrocky wrote on April 12, 2007 5:43 PM:

Rove aside, this is still just scratching the surface. This must not stop at just White House employees with RNC accounts. Congress should demand to know, for every agency of the government, what other employees have or have had RNC accounts!!!

This abuse of power is being run out of the RNC offices, and since everything this administration does is about politics I guarantee you that these accounts are rampant with its political appointees in every department. Karl's e-mail may be gone, but what about all those folks who he sent them to or received them from? Have their accounts been purged?

Not to sound too Oliver Stone-ish, but this scandal maybe the first true glimpse into the shadow government conspiracy nuts have worried about. Get the RNC servers locked down now!

Nina wrote on April 12, 2007 5:46 PM:

Hope you're right, E-dog9. All the same, I'm concerned about your reliance on "what the E-mails turn up." Remember, Nixon & Company weren't brought down on the basis of what was heard on 18 and a half minutes of blank tape. I think this is a lesson that Rove learned all too well. And I'll tell you my code word for a dollar.

DF wrote on April 12, 2007 5:48 PM:

Killer Karma Karl.

Code word: CRIME

rk wrote on April 12, 2007 5:49 PM:

My guess is that we will find out that an assistant of Rove was given access to his email account for . The net result will be that the assistant will take the fall for any document destruction. They may have even given a technician directions to purge the account (directions that turned out to be a misunderstanding of course). Rove is very good at not leaving smoking guns laying around. As long as he is working for an amoral individual that is good enough.

Sully18 wrote on April 12, 2007 5:50 PM:

Talk about spin,that is what is going on in my head trying to keep up with the enormity of the Bush/Cheney/Rove crimes we`ve witnessed over the past 6+ years.
I now pray daily that the immortal words of Frank Zappa about Jimmy Swaggert come to fruition:"Someday,all those cocksuckers will get caught."

Nina wrote on April 12, 2007 5:54 PM:

Not to be a real nay-sayer, rk, but is Rove's assistant Taylor going to go down as hard as, say, Gonzales' assistant Sampson? I mean, these guys bounce back like rubber duckies.

What we need is a smart guy like Schumer to bide his time, collect his data and his thoughts, and come after the crew with guns blazing. Piecemeal is not working, because the Republicans win the spin war every time. They're just so good at the Big Lie and the Little Lies.

pc wrote on April 12, 2007 5:57 PM:

The "Lost" emails should still be in the hard drive somewhere unless Rove knows how to scrub the Hard drive or someone in the RNC did it for him and the W.H. ordered it.

When is the MSM going to start doing real news on the Worse Than Nixon gang of thieves. I have long said this has been the biggest Heist In The History of The World ,bush and co took over this country with their own Shock And AWE and we bowed down to them. Now We as Americans must bring crimnal charges against these people. We need to dig into foreign bank accounts under names to see if money that was sent to Iraq ended up in off shore accounts of these people. I put nothing past these dishonest thieves.

john wrote on April 12, 2007 6:02 PM:

Has anyone asked Pat Fitzgerald what he thinks of these email shenanigans? Is this "new evidence"?

Luca wrote on April 12, 2007 6:05 PM:

Why not turn this ‘lost e-mail’ question into a game of high stakes liar’s poker. Have special agents impound the hard drives and servers at issue. Then haul those 50 people in front of the Leahy and Waxman. Have them testify about the substance of the emails they sent/received via non-.gov email (communications that are thus not likely to be subject to an executive privilege claim). Do all this without revealing to anyone what the hard drives/servers still contain. Lets watch them squirm, dissemble, forget. And then lets set the forensic computer folks loose and call the administrations 50 odd political hacks back in front of the committees again and see how their original testimony stacks up.

Long Memory wrote on April 12, 2007 6:14 PM:

I'm the most illiterate person on this string right now, IT speaking, so I'm hoping it's true that just because you delete an e-mail doesn't mean it's gone.

And I'm thinking that when they find those e-mails they might even find the keystrokes that lead them to whomever it was who tried to delete them. And when.

Those will be some fun dots to connect, no?

EasyRider wrote on April 12, 2007 6:17 PM:

I want some one to think about the infrastructure of using the RNC computers.

Did Bush, Cheney, and Rove setup a separate RCN network in the government (on government property)? That would be a huge security violation and against the law.

If they connected the RNC computers to the government network then that too is a security violation and against the law.

Bottom line:

Democrats need to ask for the all the communications that authorized the installation and use of the RNC computers.

Did Rove order it? Cheney? Bush?

Who ordered it?

Austin Cooper wrote on April 12, 2007 6:19 PM:

"We're being very honest and forthcoming."
-- 'lil Dana

[Insert Bender Laugh Here] "Hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee. You're not just goin' to *jail*, pork-pouch; you're goin' to the *Hague*!"

Cal Damage wrote on April 12, 2007 6:22 PM:

Follow-up on several items:
1) Since any e-mail has both a sender and a receiver, and since ONLY Karl has been doing this, and all the others to these RNC addresses have been retained, all these e-mails still exist, with Karl's fingerprint, in other people's archive in-boxes.

2) The thing I'd like to see is his e-mail address book, which probably exists in cyberspace, backed up several times on several servers. Since he's shown his perfidy ($) the subpoena for that, and the subpoenas to follow on those addresses, might be even more interesting, and certainly federal felonies will ensue when SEC-mandated corporate retention regs have been 'bypassed' to hide collusion.

3) With this WhiteHouse's leak paranoia, you can bet so FBI guy with a CYA mentality has been storing Karl's crackberry traffic.

>Flush!< Let the toilet swirl begin!

Code word is pain, as in Dr Smith's "Oh, the pain, the pain..."

Anonymous wrote on April 12, 2007 6:26 PM:

"Remember, Nixon & Company weren't brought down on the basis of what was heard on 18 and a half minutes of blank tape."

Nina - My take has always been Nixon was brought down because of abuse of executive power, which was maxed out in a cover up, which never works.

As things stand, I doubt we'll see impeachment. And your point is well taken; we may never see the bulk of these emails. Still we know who was sending them, and Congress can harass them to no end.

Keep the home fires burning!

FrankE wrote on April 12, 2007 6:28 PM:

as long as Rove has not zero'd out the hard drive sectors by using a miitary reformat, odds are the data is there.

It may not be visible, and some may have been overwritten but the odds are that mch of it is recoverable.

Karl is a sneaky bastard tho, I'll bet he's found some wayto cover his rear.

If they were using RIMs Blackberry service, RIM may be able to recover much of the data. If the RNC created their own Blackberry server, it could also be available.

Why are the republicans such white collar criminals? Everywhere you look, the republican neo nutballs are into something dirty, crooked and/or perverted.

United, I stand alone against collectivism wrote on April 12, 2007 6:31 PM:

Luca,
There's only one thing wrong with a plan like that. It can be killed by Kryptonite.

Voice wrote on April 12, 2007 6:32 PM:

Nina: I'm guessing you don't get invited to parties much anymore, eh?

I get where you're coming from but really, what's the use of that kind of bellyaching? Are we supposed to just let this ride as a validation of our cynicism?

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light", seems to me a more valiant and likely choice if you're still committed to life here in the good ole U S of A.

bcg wrote on April 12, 2007 6:35 PM:

If anyone can answer:
If there was a legal order to hold all traffic through the White House accounts used at the RNC, and Rove or his agent disregarded this order and purged Rove's transmissions, isn't this itself a felony?
If it is, I don't see why the content is even necessary to nail his ass.

parrot wrote on April 12, 2007 6:37 PM:

Impeachment can't come soon enough...

Obstruction, perjury, treason, abuses of power, fraud, conspiracy to defraud, conspiracy, failure to honor oaths of office, abuse of office, and, oh, also, incompetence.

false -- as in true

Anonymous wrote on April 12, 2007 6:52 PM:

One lesson the Rethuglicans certainly learned from the Clinton Wars: Clinton *was* impeached. So what? He kept right on keeping on.

You think Dear Decider is going to give a rat's ass if Congress impeaches him? Hell, he won't even let anyone touch Rove, let alone his own ass. He won't skip a beat, and he'll just play it all out until January 2009 when he can work on his record for "posterity's" sake. Heh.

Three words for scandals like this in this day and age: DENY DENY DENY

This is total playbook, and was totally foreseeable, but six years of the shitbag GOP run Congress + Bush has pretty much destroyed America.

And instead of outrage, I can tell you what you'll get in most of flyover country:

"What time do you want to head to Wal-Mart?"

Proxy wrote on April 12, 2007 6:55 PM:

Um, isn't there something called a PATRIOT ACT that will allow digging through to discover traces of these e-mails whatever it takes?

Han Solomente wrote on April 12, 2007 7:05 PM:

Aside from the obvious ethical and legal implications let's not forget the absolutely HUGE national security issue here.

If 95% of Karl Rove's emails are done on non-secure email servers, not to mention all the other government officials using unsecure RNC accounts, then highly classified and sensitive government material has been compromised. Period. In this post 9-11 world, as the administration likes to say, security is all important.

Democrats need to point out that either one of two things are happening here. The administration, Karl Rove and the RNC have been deliberately lying about this to cover their tracks. Or they have committed a borderline treasonous lapse of security protocols. It's either one of the other. Hammer them on this.

Magginkat wrote on April 12, 2007 7:17 PM:

This do nothing congress should grow a spine and do several things:

1. Rescind Bush's ability to pardon

2. Arrest Karl Rove for violations of national security issues, one of Bush's favorite excuses for ignoring Congress!

3. Begin impeachment proceedings against Bush and Cheney. This could be done in one day as many offenses have been brazen, in your face. No additional investigation necessary.

These traitors need to be removed from office and fast, followed by the removal of all people appointed by Bush or Cheney.

paul lukasiak wrote on April 12, 2007 7:54 PM:

Does anyone know if Fitzgerald still has Special Prosecutor status?

Because it appears to me that he's already involved in what could be a very large obstruction of justice case, and if he is still a "Special Prosecutor" the Dems need to request that he be authorized to investigate this whole mess.

There is one big potential stumbling block tho' -- an apparent/potential conflict of interest if his name had been bandied about as one of the USAs whose termination was considered...

Security Code KEEP... as in what you are supposed to do with all government business communication under the Presidential Records Act.

Com-n-sense wrote on April 12, 2007 8:13 PM:

Yeah, sure I believe it. - 5,000,000 lost emails from several different servers ... sure - it could happen.

And I could wake-up in bed tomorrow with Angelina Joly.

Eyeball Kid wrote on April 12, 2007 8:15 PM:

I'd venture to guess that no one has to go to the NSA to get everything, although with certainty, the NSA HAS everything. There is so much redundancy created with cheap storage that it's unthinkable that Rove, with his "deleting" his emails from his hard drive, isn't deluding himself into believing that he's actually hiding his emails.

It's also relieving that Senator Leahy blurted the lie out for all to hear: there's no way that these emails are actually destroyed, that the RNC is actually preventing them from being retrieved because they don't want to give them up.

If anyone deleted entries, then the date and time of the deletion is also recorded. What would be interesting to note is when any further deletions are taking place, and who'd doing it.

Sue wrote on April 12, 2007 8:28 PM:

I'm surprised that Mr. Kelner is actually telling the truth that they have kept 'all the e-mails.'

Why would we believe this, based on what information has already been provided?

C Turner Joy wrote on April 12, 2007 8:38 PM:

Nina said:

You know, I'm sorry, but I read all these exclamations of outrage at Rove's apparently lawless behavior, with comments of expectations of "getting to the bottom" of this scandal... and I just have to say that I'm suffering from outrage burnout.

First off, don't get burnt out. I'm pretty sure they are counting on that. Rove and company are sure that we'll get tired of scandal/outrage. We've only now gotten the power to expose the things that have been outrageous for so long.

That said, I agree with you. I think the largest problem here is that we may find that if there are prosecutable crimes here that no one will take up the charges. Can Congress compel the DoJ to do anything? What is the penalty for violating the PRA anyway?

I also think that at some point these guy are going to want to take the excutive privilege to the courts. That will be part of their run out the clock strategy.

Can you pardon someone that hasn't been indicted?

Code word is papyrus. Not really. It was fire.

knoxy wrote on April 12, 2007 8:54 PM:

Wow. Just wow.

The gloves better be off, Democrats. Now is the time. If these folks don't go to the mattress on this one, what WILL they go for?

Code word "Jig" as in dancing one right now. Or potentially, as in, is up.

chompiz wrote on April 12, 2007 8:59 PM:

Do you guys think that they're willing to sacrifice the RNC's survival just to cover Karl Rove's ass?
NOT!

curious wrote on April 12, 2007 9:15 PM:

Eyeball Kid,

Rove didn't simply delete e-mail from his hard-drive, he apparently deleted it from the RNC server. WTF. Yes, the RNC server (who knew the architect is also a techno geek). RNC grew concerned and eventually intervened to stop him. Rep. Waxman sent a letter to Gonzo this afternoon in which he described parts of his conversation with RNC counsel Kelner:

According to Mr. Kelner, although the hold started in August 2004, the RNC does not have any e-mails prior to 2005 for Mr. Rove. Mr. Kelner did not give any explanation for the e-mails missing from Mr. Rove's account, but he did acknowledge that one possible explanation is that Mr. Rove personally deleted his e-mails from the RNC server.

Mr. Kelner also explained that starting in 2005, the RNC began to treat Mr. Rove's emails in a special fashion. At some point in 2005, the RNC commenced an automatic archive policy for Mr. Rove, but not for any other White House officials. According to Mr. Kelner, this archive policy removed Mr. Rove's ability to personally delete his e-mails from the RNC server. Mr. Kelner did not provide many details about why this special policy was adopted for Mr. Rove. But he did indicate that one factor was the presence of investigative or discovery requests or other legal concerns. It was unclear from Mr. Kelner's briefing whether the special archiving policy for Mr. Rove was consistently in effect after 2005.

litigatormom wrote on April 12, 2007 9:40 PM:

Damn...this one is indefensible. They'll got the "Clinton did it" lie, they'll probably throw in a "it was all an accident", and when that fails, I'm SURE the email archivist was some rogue bad apple who entered the building at nite just to delete Rove's emails all by himself....

Posted by: Punchy
Date: April 12, 2007 04:35 PM
****************************************

Perhaps the e-mails are still on the blue dress in Karl Rove's closet.

curious wrote on April 12, 2007 9:53 PM:

This one is blatant obstruction. Hopefully, Fitz is apoplectic over Rove's antics. His investigation in Plame is "inactive" but still open. RNC is desparately trying to circumvent its role as a co-conspirator in anticipation of RICO charges. Goodling is angling to turn state's evidence. Rats are jumping ship.

pre-amerikkkan wrote on April 12, 2007 10:03 PM:

it's time for impeachgate to begin.

wound

anomyous wrote on April 12, 2007 10:04 PM:

Yes, Joy, you can pardon one for crimes not yet committed.

RandyR wrote on April 12, 2007 10:29 PM:

Dear God how I hate posting so far down in the blog but anyway to those who make it this far.

Consider that every email that the Big K has sent went somewhere. What I mean is that every email sent to Goodling, Gonzoles, or anyother of these bullshit artists contain both side of the mail. Instead of finding the missing emails in Karl's box, which we know they were deleted, look on the other side. Although they won't be found neatly stacked in Karl's box they will be neatly stack in the receivers box. You see he could delete his end but he couldn't delete who he sent to.

Let me try this again. If Karl sent an email to Monica Goodling and then deleted it it still exists on Monica's email box. Anyone decent on a keyboard could write a query to address the documents in that fashion. It won't snag all the mail but it can still reach pretty far and should get most of it.

Security Code: Flag Jump up and down and wave the flag 'cause I think we got this sucker in the bag.

C Turner Joy wrote on April 12, 2007 10:44 PM:

Yes, Joy, you can pardon one for crimes not yet committed.

Really? What are you pardoning them for? I'm not doubting you or contradicting. I'm just trying to understand the concept.

It seems like absolution. Do you have to give dates? Anything you did from now to then is forgiven?

Can this be extended into the future? "Nothing this man ever does can be prosecuted." I want some of that.

Can you point me to some guidelines on this? I love to know how far and wide this power extends.

Rereading that and it sounds sarcastic. I swear I'm not. I just always figured you'd have to be past the accusation stage and have something hung on you to be pardoned.

Thanks.

code: cloth..as in from whole?

Shawn Fassett wrote on April 12, 2007 10:45 PM:

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/04/more_obstructio.html

More Obstruction of Justice?

Larry Johnson

News that White House staffers, which includes Karl Rove and Scooter Libby, used RNC email accounts in order to avoid the scrutiny that normally comes with the White House email account raises an interesting question--Did Patrick Fitzgerald know this? It appears the answer is no.

If that is the case then we are looking at the potential for new obstruction of justice in the Valerie Plame case. Why? For starters there are the subpoenas the White House received in 2003. They were required to turn over all emails relating to the Valerie Plame case, not just White House emails. Just when you thought the Plame case was at a dead end it looks like the hubris of the Republicans have given it new life. Karl Rove may get frog marched yet.

UPDATE: Here's the link for what the Department of Justice told the White House to produce and preserve. The White House was told to preserve:

ALL DOCUMENTSFROM FEBRUARY 2002 TO JANUARY 23 2004 INCLUSIVE INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ALL ELECTRONIC RECORDS WRITTEN RECORDS TELEPHONE RECORDS OF ANY KIND INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY DOCUMENTS THAT MEMORIALIZE TELEPHONE CALLS HAVING BEEN MADE CORRESPONDENCE COMPUTER RECORDS EMAIL STORAGE DEVICES NOTES WHETHERHANDWRITTEN OR TYPED OR IN ANY OTHER FORMAT MEMORANDA AND DIARY AND CALENDAR ENTRIES IN THE Q119
POSSESSION OF THE OFFICE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT ITS STAFF AND EMPLOYEES CONCERNING ANY DISCUSSION OF THE FOLLOWING ...

I love the smell of perjury in the morning. Scooter may get some bunk mates.

mob wrote on April 12, 2007 10:54 PM:

Re: the comments about Patrick Fitzgerald, remember "MC Rove" onstage a few short weeks ago, giving his name sardonically as "Patrick Fitzgerald?" Someone in needs to play those few seconds again in the context of this email deleting despite having been ordered not to because of Fitz's investigation. Hey, I know a little political blog that recently started using video every day....!

Florida Democrat wrote on April 12, 2007 11:04 PM:

Fitzgerald delivered an envelope to a Federal Judge in D.C. to hold. The contents of that letter have never been revealed.

Perhaps it contains details of White House Obstruction of Justice that for whatever reason Fitzgerald felt could not be revealed. Perhaps it was due to threats against his or his family's personal safety.

I wonder how long it will take before that envelope becomes public.

714Day wrote on April 12, 2007 11:23 PM:

To curious -
Everybody knew that Karl was a techno geek. He was an early bird in this territory. He knew in the early 70's that computers could be manipulated more easily than people. He only needed to have a small cadre of like minded sorts on board to turn a blind eye while he fussed with the clockworks.
I don't know how old you are, but it really did take a certain amount of prescience to lay a bead on that back in the day. He saw the expanding universe as a tool for his shifty business, though, so I wouldn't call him a genius. Genius creates and this dude is a destroyer. He's very bright, though.
I rely on his fellow criminals to cough something up eventually all the same. However else you see this crowd, they are deeply concerned with the hair on their own rump. He's pissed a lot of people off and nobody wants to hang for him. After all, he didn't engineer the vote well enough in 2006.

Lexie wrote on April 13, 2007 12:01 AM:

Recall how Abu Gonzales did not comply with requests to retain correspondence and documents until several hours or days had passed on a couple of occasions. It was very suspicious because Bush admin. people had a great opportunity to destroy their emails.

Lexie wrote on April 13, 2007 12:03 AM:

I just remembered: Mehlman was implicated in the New Hampshire phone-jamming scam on election day in 2004. I bet you some emails implicate him in that. Karl probably gave him the idea in any case.

curious wrote on April 13, 2007 12:10 AM:

714Day,

Today on blogs, I read that Karl was an expert in data mining and in the potential of technology to manipulate; however, that's not the same as the techno to delete data from a server. He might know that it can be done, but not how. He'd have to hire out. Possibly he hired out. If so, that person(s) is(are) out there, which is always problematic for felons. Also, his tech savvy nature would explain Diabold voting and MZM em security contracts (In relevant time periods). With regard to the latter, a couple of news outlets has the following to say:

[O]ver the past three years it [MZM Inc.] was also awarded several contracts, worth more than $600,000, by the Executive Office of the President. They include a $140,000 deal for office furniture in 2002 and several for unspecified “intelligence services.”

. . . .

"To recap, the White House awarded a one-month, $140,000 contract to an individual who never held a federal contract. Two weeks after he got paid, that same contractor used a cashier’s check for exactly that amount to buy a boat for a now-imprisoned congressman at a price that the congressman [Cunningham] had pre-negotiated."

Sure looks like a RICO violation aimed at political obstruction in play. . . still in play.

bartolo wrote on April 13, 2007 1:10 AM:

Hey Leahy Go F*ck yourself!

Remember that one from Dick Cheney on the floor of Congress?

Do you actually think the neocons will change their ways?

Go f*ck yourself Leahy or go get a

F*CKING SPECIAL PROSECUTOR!

Good God Man what is it going to take!?

Investigate, Subpoena, Indict, Convict, Impeach.

Serve and Save the United States of America.

curious wrote on April 13, 2007 1:52 AM:

Note: Appears certain that no office furniture was ever delivered. Only services ever claimed to have been provided under the $140,000 contract were for "information protection."

No check was ever delivered, and yet, the receiving end can account for the money received. Without a doubt, the facts are odd. All interested parties should check it. (To date, aside from furniture not delivered, no-one can vouch for services delivered - many have checked, but due to claims of executive privilege, no-one can answer definitively.)

Bipartisianship is the key to resolving the recent flood of evidence of wrongdoing. If proven, this pattern of wrongdoing violates the compact that the American government has with each of its citizens, regardless of political affiliation. Let's start behaving as a nation united. Good God . . . Neither party has a monopoly on rightousness. Our pond is poisoned. Let's fix it. Nonetheless. No compromise until the polluters are all in jail . . . Don't forget . . . the same *ssh*s that contaminated the Repug are waiting at the Demss' doorstep to pollute those we expect to reform. Recall Animal Farm, when the animals looked at the amended constitution, then from pig to farmer and farmer to pig, suddenly, the animals couldn't tell the difference, the two were the same and we look from repub to dem, and dem to repub and can't tell the difference, and at our constitution and find that it's strangely, but ambiguoously changed. Think: Bush v. Kerry, 2004. Both from political/financial dynasties, both Yale grads, both at Yale at same time where both were members of the Scull & Cross Bones fraternity, and so on. Ugh. Honestly. Give me a candidate who attended public school in the burbs, admits he or she once inhaled (or at least had a sibling or parent who did-maybe even went to jail or treatment) who actually fought either for or against war. Maybe someone who's paid their own tuition and student loans while simultaneously trying to support a sick parent and/or children without health insurance, or who's parents got laid off by Qwest or Enron, lost their life's savings and instead of living on the beach, have just lost their house in foreclosure and are showing signs of Alzheimers. The list goes on, but point made and the reality is sickening. Please God, we need a compelling, decent option.

webdems wrote on April 13, 2007 2:20 AM:

To curious: Check out Montana's governor. He seems to fit your requirements quite well.

curious wrote on April 13, 2007 2:46 AM:

webdems,

I have no idea whether you are being kind or snarking at me. Why would he fit my requirements?

Kilo wrote on April 13, 2007 4:07 AM:

"""...Mr. Rove personally deleted his e-mails from the RNC server."""

Wow. So lil' Karl is suddenly an IT professional? Do they actually expect us to believe this crap?

Why not?
They are describing using the delete key in your email client that billions of people use every day.

There are very few email servers set up to retain mail on a server even after you've received the message, let alone after you have deleted the local copy.

You just don't understand what's being described.

Kilo wrote on April 13, 2007 4:14 AM:

"""Today on blogs, I read that Karl was an expert in data mining and in the potential of technology to manipulate; however, that's not the same as the techno to delete data from a server. He might know that it can be done, but not how. He'd have to hire out. Possibly he hired out."""
Posted by: curious
Date: April 13, 2007 12:10 AM

WTF are you talking about ?
The "techno required to delete from the server" is for most email accounts opening your email. That usually results in email being downloaded and the server copy deleted.
In certain geeky configs you may retain the same copy of your email inbox/sentbox/etc on the server that are in your email client. In those configs email is deleted from the server when you hit delete in your email client.

Do you outsource your own email management because you can't find the delete button to delete spam yourself ?
No ?
Then why would you expect anyone else to ?

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doubledave27 wrote on April 13, 2007 10:34 AM:

The MINUTE Karl Rove starts testifying in public to Congress is the MINUTE nukes will start hitting Teheran. These criminals will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to get off.

curious wrote on April 13, 2007 11:42 AM:

Kilo,

Whatchya smokin'? The reason that Karl's deleting e-mails off the server is an issue is because the RNC ARCHIVED his e-mails on their server and he WENT INTO the SERVER, not because he hit the delete buttom on his laptop. Hitting delete and then deleting your trash doesn't get you into the server. Seriously : ( Before you get nasty, have a cookie and a nap.

jimbo92107 wrote on April 13, 2007 3:09 PM:

The Machiavellis are tripping over their Mayberries.

Harriett wrote on April 13, 2007 3:12 PM:

IMO, Rove is the big fish in all cases of illegal behavior, and MUST be brought before Congress and forced to testify. And, hopefully, someone somewhere will be able to produce the lost emails. This 'losing' or deleting them is a CRIME, and one he should not be allowed to wiggle out of. Rove has engaged in criminal behavior before he even stole the first election. Please, Congree, for America's sake, throw the pile of crap in jail where he belongs.

mcdeavitt wrote on April 13, 2007 3:40 PM:

I keep seeing people speculating on the "if's or if not's" on the deletion issue. Here's the deal. Forensic data recovery has the ability to dig down through many layers of deleted data, even using scanning electron microscopes. The simple fact of the matter is this; if you truly want to delete data the only real method for doing so is to melt the platers in the HD's themselves. Baring that there is data the FBI can glean from these drives that will bury just about all of these key criminals!

curious wrote on April 14, 2007 12:44 AM:

mcdeavitt,

With all due respect, we agree Karl is treasonous, but the issue isn't the hard-drive, the issue is: How the heck did he access the server. It's kind of like accessing the Watergate with plumbing tools . . . except, it takes a great deal more inside cooperation and techno expertise. As previously stated, Karl understands the malevolent manipulative possibilities of technology, and that the protocals can be juiced, but he lacks the expertise to pull off this play himself. He needed help. (Note the overlap of the WH em blalckout, the RNC blackout and various investigations- coincidence?) How much would it cost? At least $140K down, and $360+ down the road. Never stray. . . follow the $$$$.

Arffie wrote on April 14, 2007 9:06 PM:

They've finally cornered themselves. As always, it's the cover-up, not the crime, that gets such bas**rds into the slammer.

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Monica Goodling told Kyle Sampson about Tim Griffin's involvement in caging voters.
Too bad the Committee didn't ask more questions about this 'caging', because maybe "they are missing the real story behind the firing of the US attorneys":
http://www.gregpalast.com/the-goods-on-goodling-and-the-keys-to-the-kingdom/
I'm Dutch and not very familiar with American politics, but I'm very curious about your opinions: Is Palast right on the money? Is it all about voter fraud?
Palast claims he has 500 of the missing emails from Rove. Could those emails be real?

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