Comments (58)

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 2:53 PM:

Quoting directly from the Executive Order, what part of "effective monitoring of the program, including with respect to medical matters, to ensure the safety of those in the program" don't you understand? What I had never heard before is confirmation of how few terrorists have been subjected to enhanced interrogations -- I thought McConnell said 200 -- after that interview, I thought Russ Feingold was hilarious. Only a "censure" now, that he was forced to admit had NO LEGAL EFFECT? What happened to IMPEACHMENT, Senator Feingold?!

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 2:55 PM:

Actually, less than 100, from the transcript:

". . . I did understand, when exposed to the techniques, how they work and why they work, all under medical supervision. And one of the things that’s very important, I think, for the American public to know, in the history of this program, it’s been fewer than 100 people. And so this, this is a program where we capture someone known to be a terrorist, we need information that they possess, and it has saved countless lives."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19850951/page/2/

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 2:57 PM:

MR. RUSSERT: What is the legal impact or effect of a censure?

SEN. FEINGOLD: It is not — does not have legal impact. It is a resolution that has been done before both with regard to members of Congress and also presidents, and it does not have legal consequences to my knowledge.

MR. RUSSERT: You’ll be introducing this when?

SEN. FEINGOLD: Shortly. In a few days.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19850951/page/4/

EH wrote on July 23, 2007 3:05 PM:

The Hippocratic Oath turns in its grave...

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 3:08 PM:

EH:

At least they are not trying to KILL THEM, like abortion "doctors".

nellieh wrote on July 23, 2007 3:12 PM:

If I haven't commented about this at 5 different places I haven't done it at one! IF YOU AREN"T TORTURING, WHY DO YOU NEED DOCTORS!? It is impossible to get straight and truthful answers from the top down to the manure shovelers.(press secretaries)This whole administration needs IMPEACHED!!

Jane wrote on July 23, 2007 3:12 PM:

So torture by the United States is alright so long as it was only done to 200? You weren't one of the 200 so it is okay as long as they don't come for you if some one decides that you are a traitor and may be deemed an enemy combatant since you are giving aid and comfort to the enemy by making it appear that Americans think that torture is okay? Jake, how effective do you think your post above will be in helping the Jihadists recruit?

The EO talks about effective monitoring of the program, "including with respect to medical matters." McConnell was not talking about some random medical matters-- he was talking about before he signed off on this EO that he had " sat down with those who had been trained to do it, the doctors who monitor it." So our interrogations are such that we need doctors to monitor it?

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 3:31 PM:

I could care less if 2000 terrorists are tortured. I'd much rather have that than another 9/11 (or worse) here again. If that "helps recruit" more terrorists, then we need to lather, rinse, repeat until the job is done. Since I'm not a terrorist, I don't have any fear of being tortured either.

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 3:33 PM:

Also, Feingold claimed that several "Presidents" have been censured -- not true -- Andrew Jackson is the only sitting President to be successfully censured, and his censure was subsequently expunged from the record by the very next Congress. There is definitely an open question whether "censure" by the Congress against a President is even Constitutional.

RUN, CINDY, RUN!!!

TheraP wrote on July 23, 2007 3:35 PM:

Right, Jane. We don't want any permanent harm after all, do we?

Anyone assisting in this ought to lose their license, whether to practice medicine or psychology.

We don't believe in experimenting on people without their consent. This is worse!

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 3:38 PM:

I am a troll-aholic, obsessed with Cindy Sheehan. AA won't have me. The Republicans won't pay me. And I'd spend more time with my family - but Cindy is running - AWAY from me.

My only life is here - on the blogs - where I weep and gnash my teeth. Republicans grow rich, but won't even throw me a bone: My work goes unappreciated even by them! I am a worm - and no man. Oh, god, I hate myself!

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 3:38 PM:

But partial-birth abortion is jusy hunkey-dorey! Those are the doctors who should lose their medical licenses . . .

Rodney Lamprey, jr. wrote on July 23, 2007 3:44 PM:

Did Regent University start a Medical School to train in Biblical tortures?

tpm devotee wrote on July 23, 2007 3:47 PM:

"Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord."

EH wrote on July 23, 2007 3:47 PM:

Jake just can't stay on topic. Neither does he know what the Hippocratic Oath is.

Hippo wrote on July 23, 2007 3:49 PM:

"...and your 3:15 is ready for you now Dr Mengele..."

Steve5117 wrote on July 23, 2007 3:49 PM:

TheraP

There are plenty of wounds that need to be dressed and bedpans to empty at our VA hospitals.How about reassisning them to that duty?

Ironically, bedpan duty would be good for all the shit dispensers in this administration.

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 3:53 PM:

EH:

The Hippocratic Oath, translated from the original Greek:

“I swear by Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath.

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.

Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

TheraP wrote on July 23, 2007 3:53 PM:

Steve5117:

What a creative idea!

Pathman25 wrote on July 23, 2007 3:58 PM:

You don't have to take the Hippocratic oath to be a physician. I never did.

tpm devotee wrote on July 23, 2007 4:00 PM:

"never do harm to anyone"

good idea - from the quote above

First Principle of Medicine = Do no harm

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 4:04 PM:

Fine, tpm devotee, I will agree to outlaw all torture if you agree to outlaw all abortion. Deal?

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 4:15 PM:

I AM an outlaw.

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 4:18 PM:

YEEEEEEEEEHAAH

EH wrote on July 23, 2007 4:18 PM:

Your noisiness is inversely proportional to your power.

FRP wrote on July 23, 2007 4:27 PM:

I really don't see the problem , I always have a lawyer and a doctor along whenever I meander on to the RMV . I find that it just eliminates troubles waiting and those 'lil pesky itty bitty problems later . Really get a grip . No really get a grip .

FRP wrote on July 23, 2007 4:31 PM:

I really don't see the problem , I always have a lawyer and a doctor along whenever I meander on to the RMV . I find that it just eliminates troubles waiting and those 'lil pesky itty bitty problems later . Really get a grip . No really get a grip .

David in NY wrote on July 23, 2007 4:43 PM:

Revolting, as are our trolls. "I'm going to medical school to learn to monitor the infliction of pain in torture so that it doesn't go too far."

lysias wrote on July 23, 2007 5:28 PM:

Psychologists are often Ph.D.'s, and Ph.D.'s are often loosely called "doctors." (Being a Ph.D. myself, I'm familiar with the usage.)

We've known psychologists were involved in the torture. I wonder if McConnell just misspoke.

Anonymous wrote on July 23, 2007 6:17 PM:

"interrogators receive advice from medical personnel in conducting their interrogations."

Same thing was happening at GTMO. You don't think that they're still doing the "bad things" they promised not to do anymore? Shocked!

[/snark]

Recall: "retains the right to opt out of the FISA regime whenever it chooses" is a philosophy that applies to Nuremburg, Geneva, and the laws of war. IT should not, but this Congress refuses to enforce Geneva.

Anonymous wrote on July 23, 2007 6:18 PM:

Inappropriate for doctors to be involved: Google [Nuremburg Code]

Anonymous wrote on July 23, 2007 6:19 PM:

APA Whitewash problem:

[ http://www.counterpunch.org/bond08232006.html ]

Anonymous wrote on July 23, 2007 6:23 PM:

CIA agentes have already gonen to the EU. How much more info does the CIA have, that it is disclosing to non-US entities about US war crimes?

Membesr of Congres are complicit with these war crimes for refusing to review use of medical doctors during the interrogations:

[ http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_6308408 ]

[ QUOTE: Officials who have brought into disrepute both the Department of Justice and the administration of justice as a whole should finally have to answer for it - and the misdeeds at issue involve not merely garden-variety misconduct, but multiple "high crimes and misdemeanors," including war crimes and crimes against humanity.]

Anonymous wrote on July 23, 2007 6:29 PM:

"I sat down with those who had been trained to do it, the doctors who monitor it, understanding that no one is subjected to torture."

Meaningless. "Subjected to torture" in no way address the _different_ Geneva standard: _Abuse_. The US is arguing over the "Definition of torture," as a smokescreen away from the misconduct that vioaltes war crimes.

Talk to Mary Walker, DoD General COunsel who provided briefings to the WH Counsel's office on issues of rendition. She's a member of the Federalist SOciety, as is one of Sidley Austin's partners Berenson, formerly with the WH Counsel's office, and defending the AT&T NSA violations litigation.

Dissent said, "the conclusion becomes inescapable that the TSP was unlawful" and the RNC e-mails go missing. What's up with that Brad Berenson, someone who apparently knows something about the White House.

Anonymous wrote on July 23, 2007 6:42 PM:

See [ Jess Bravin, “Pentagon Report Set Framework For Use of Torture,” Wall Street Journal, June 7, 2004. ] for information on AF General Counsel Mary L. Walker role in providing briefings on rendition.

[ http://hrw.org/reports/2004/usa0604/2.htm#_ftnref18 ]

"where the line between appropriate psychological pressure and torture lay." [ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/interviews/berenson.html ]

Anonymous wrote on July 23, 2007 6:52 PM:

Recall what Berenson was saying: [ "as a matter of law, these folks were not covered by the Geneva Conventions. They didn't have a right to insist on the protections afforded by the Geneva Conventions," (even through they were proteted by Geneva, per the US SUpreme Court)]

The above infromation from McConnel is consistent with the President's "view" of Geneva: The POWs were _not_ able to challenge use of medical doctors.

In other words, _despite_ the Spreme Court stating that the POWs were protected by Geneva, McConnel above reveals that the improper use of medical doctors _continued_ after the Supreme Court reminded the President -- and McConnel -- that all Geneva protections, including the Nuremburg Code, were applicable.

SOunds like McConnel has ssentially admitted that there were ongoing GEneva vioaltions _despite_ fair notice by the Supreme COurt of their applicability. Question goes back to Mary L. Walker: When wasw the WH counsel briefed on the Guantanamo abuses; and what happened to the report from the on scene security plicy to the 6th Gropu, then to the JCS which she should have read?

Looks like more recklessness by McConnel, Walker, the President, and legal counsel invovedl. No other reasonable conclusion. But Congress says, "We aren't going to do anything, wait for th enext election...."

SOunds like the same thing Germans said in 1930s. "Not my problem..."

Anonymous wrote on July 23, 2007 7:06 PM:

This is a BS argument: ["we capture someone known to be a terrorist, we need information that they possess"]

A. HOw do they _know_ that _this_ person "has" the information "neded"?

B> What is the basis for that "knowledge"?

C. _Who_, other than the accused, "knows" that the "accused terrorist" has this information?

D. What is the basis to believe that this "second person" [making the assertion that the accused terrorist has this information] shold be believed?

E. How many "accusations that someone _has_ information" is based on dubious claims?

F. If the person who is "making the accusation" really "knows" that this person "has" this information, why isn't that _second person_ being targeted?

Recall this: ["retains the right to opt out of the FISA regime whenever it chooses."] How much money is the "person making the accusation that someone _else_ has information" getting; are there any real consequences if they are lying? The US could ignore these protocols "any time" it chooses -- according to the WH -- so why believe that the "rules" rleated to "information accuracy" or "information asssurance" or "informanta reliability" were responsibly applied?

Torture and abuse, based on unproven accusations is doubly problematic: It fails to go after the person who supposedly "really knows" who has the information: _how_ do they really know; and was this "certainty" based on torture as well?

Indeed it was: Look at the abuses in N. Africa: US targets were abused, and made up stories. They accused others of being in places where they were never located. As with FISA violations, one bad line of abuses leads to more bad information, and more abuse.

gurgling stomach wrote on July 23, 2007 7:33 PM:

Pet peeve, as the article and the quotations aren't precise:
- Physicians are M.D.s or D.O.s
- Psychiatrists are physicians who specialize in helping those with psychological disorders. These days, most spend far less time doing therapy than writing prescriptions for antidepressants, antipsychotics, mood stabilizers, etc. Psychiatrists are no less physicians than are cardiologists, neurologists, urologists, etc., etc.
- Psychologists are M.A.s or Ph.D.s who typically provide therapy.

All of these helpful folk must be licensed to practice by the state or states in which they practice.

And yes, ANY member of these professions who participates in interrogations, "enhanced" or otherwise, is vile beyond comprehension and should have their licenses stripped from them at the very least.

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 7:45 PM:

Even if said professional has to participate in order to save the lives of 300,000,000 Americans?

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 8:23 PM:

I repudiate my former remarks!

Jake D. wrote on July 23, 2007 8:43 PM:

I repudiate myself!

Jane wrote on July 23, 2007 9:50 PM:

Jake: You claim that you are not a terrorist but what if I think differently( and I am sure that lots at TPM agree with me) based on secret information. What if a neighbor of yours says that you said that you knew that a good way to recruit for Al Quaeda was making it appear that America supports torture and that why you said " I could care less if 2000 terrorists are tortured." and followed it up with " The neighbor also sas that you said thatIf that "helps recruit" more terrorists, then we need to lather, rinse, repeat until the job is done." Recruit more terrorist until the job is done? Sounds like a terrorist to me. Help them get the job done.

Oh, the neighbor was quoting you out of context? Oh my golly, if you were Moslem and swept up off the streets and held as an enemy combatant you wouldn't even be told what the neighbor said -- he is now a protected informant. So you would have no way to tell the interrogators in Egypt if you were sent back to the country you immigrated from that the neighbor making the accusation covets your wife.

Things on this order have happened. Do you really think that this protects American lives or does it just greatly simplify recruiting by the terrorists?

molly wrote on July 23, 2007 10:01 PM:

Chilling.Your tax dollars at work. Nazis.

Anonymous wrote on July 23, 2007 10:20 PM:

ACCUSATIONS WITHOUT EVIDENCE ARE A SYMPTOM OF A FLAWED, FAILING SOCIETY

Posted by: Jane
Date: July 23, 2007 9:50 PM

Jane,

I think you have it exactly right: People who are not even in the conversation can sometimes be so persuasive, they'll convince others they "know more about the situation" than those who were actually there. People like this are wretched: They get power by tearing others down, finding fault, and shifting direction/attention from themselves to a scapegoat. Their problem is when challenged, they'll claim "the other person" (who is calling them on their BS) has some sort of "mental" problem.

These types of people are deceitful, manipulative, liars: They will deny reality to make others believe that the problem is "out there," even through they've been caught red handed. One Richard Pryor joke went like this: A man gets caught in bed cheating on his wife and denies it, but she protests; he yells back, "Are you going to believe _me_ or your lying eyes?" The GOP seems to have well embraced the abusive tactics of the Nazis, using "accusations of fascism" as a "problem with the liberal media." No, time to call this GOP what it is: Fascist. They know it, or should know it; and if they deny it, how do they escape the comparisons.

An appropriate question to ask: Who is more responsible at conducting long range planning, and effectively solving problems: The GOP; or AlQueda. Given the GOP's bungling in Iraq, and AlQueda's successes in Afghanistan, it's hard for the GOP to argue that the Republicans are a more competent organization. All the GOP does is rely on the momentum of the existing infrastructure, but they do not appear well placed to improve the organization to achieve better results. They're more of a chair warmer at best; at worst, they're simply urinating on the chair, and happy with the mysterious warmth.

Getting back to your point: The idea of accusations is that they are not evidence; and the idea of an adversarial system of justice is to find the truth, not act as a platform for more unsubstantiated claims. The American legal community has got it backwards lately, permitting accusations to be the basis for national policy; but rather than rely on evidence to plan, they're relying on the same hype, leading to disastrous results. A flawed justice system is a symptom of a failed society. The failure of Congress to act is not just a problem in itself, but a symptom of how far things have descended: Congress believes it will "better off" if it refuses to challenge the President's non-sense, only leading to more non-sense.

At this juncture, I can only be persuaded that the Congress wants to pretend it is engaging in oversight, but has no plans to really check power: They do not appear inclined to keep all options on the table needed to confront this dictator. He relies on the laziness of small minded, puny Americans who cower; rather than stand on the shoulders of real giants like Jefferson, Washington, Roosevelt, JFK, and Madison. Bullies are eventually taken down through lawful means. The question is how many -- who should have acted -- go down with him because of their failure to do what they should: Assert their oath to assert all lawful options to protected the Constitution. America's leaders today in 2007 have let down their party, country, oath, family, and most of all the Constitution and We the People. The days ahead Will be difficult, but with perseverance I trust we will get through this. However, it will be at a high price in terms of abuse. However, to do nothing would merely incite more abuse. We have no choice but to confront this illegal dictatorship: To do anything less would invite more abuse and ask that we live as slaves, than daring to exercise our freedoms.

Thank you for your comments, Jane.

oldtree wrote on July 23, 2007 10:36 PM:

Sounds like the consulted with frist, perhaps by video? mengele you say?

GMFORD wrote on July 24, 2007 1:45 AM:

Yes, they are fascists -- and they know they are fascists -- and I would be willing to bet they are privately proud of being fascists.

I sure hope Americans understand it is democracy vs. fascism in '08. Fascism already has it's toe, or maybe the whole foot, in the door in this country. If we don't get that door shut soon, it will be too late to stop it. Ask the Germans how it sneaks up on a country.

Carol Lam wrote on July 24, 2007 6:35 AM:

See THEDOODABIDES DOT COM ETHICAL BISQUITS to send email to AMA and APA.

Similar bravery two years ago. http://www.truthout.org/...

For all 43 retired generals and admirals, it was a combination of moral outrage and deep disgust over President Bush's proposed legislation on interrogating terrorist suspects that propelled them into unfamiliar territory.

"None of us feels comfortable speaking out publicly," said retired Rear Adm. John D. Hutson, who served as the Navy's judge advocate general from 1997 to 2000 and presided over the JAG corps' 1,600 members. "That's not the nature of what military officers do.... [But we] care very, very much about the country and the military - and that's why [we] are speaking out."

The group of retired flag officers first came together in 2005, when a dozen of them signed a letter opposing the nomination of Alberto Gonzales as attorney general for his role in developing Bush's policies on torture in the war on terror. Late last year, they supported Sen. John McCain's (R-Ariz.) ban on cruel and inhumane treatment of detainees in U.S. custody anywhere in the world.

____

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/23/5546/26124

nyfinn wrote on July 24, 2007 9:36 AM:

For the second time in a day I heard top officials from the White House...President Bush to high school students...and McConnell on Meet The Press....deny that there is any torturing going on. How can pschological torment not be considered torture? Does torture have to include physical pain and destruction?

Masefield wrote on July 24, 2007 9:42 AM:

Another note to Jake - you're right that torture does get us a great deal of information. Tons of it. The problem is that none of it is worth a darn.

It's been known for a long time that human beings will say anything to get torture to stop.

In fact, the "reverse-engineered" tactics we're using at the "black sites" and at Guantanamo were abandoned by the KGB since the information gathered from torture was absolutely useless. Essentially, it was a waste of everybody's time.

Read the first few paragraphs of the Vanity Fair article (URL in the original article) from 7/17/07 for how we did get the intelligence from Abu Zubaydah on who had planned 9/11 and how.

There are far better ways to go about making this a safer, better world, and we know how to do it. The problem is that the people running the show have blinders on, and we're all paying the price.

Jake Off wrote on July 24, 2007 11:08 AM:

Unitary Executive Order 1105.3 requires Medical schools to include the latest Torture Techniques in their curriculum or face the loss of federal funds.

Additionally, as of this date, all practicing physicians will be required to complete a course in Torture, or face the loss of their license to practice medicine in the US of A.

Jake D. wrote on July 24, 2007 11:10 AM:

Masefield:

If "human beings will say ANYTHING to get torture to stop" why are you necessarily ruling out that they will tell the truth?

Jake D. wrote on July 24, 2007 11:12 AM:

Jake Off:

Funny thing, of course, is that some Bush-hater here will think you are serious.

Anonymous wrote on July 24, 2007 3:23 PM:

My question is very simple: Why did Bush see the need of signing a new executive order if, according to Cheney, the US does not torture????
The fact that he issued this "fatwa" confirms EVERYTHING we have been suspecting. At home and abroad. With or without doctors.
Jake D : How can we be sure you are NOT a terrorist?
Terrorism has many forms. Blog terrorism is a new variety...

Masefield wrote on July 24, 2007 4:24 PM:

Well, we've suspended habeas corpus, and we no longer have the Geneva Conventions. I think we can go after Jake.

Pack your bags and don't bother warning your family. They'll never find you anyway.

Innocent, guilty, who cares?

Certainly not the United States government.

Your comments are reason enough to make you a suspect.

The car is on the way.

Good luck.

deang wrote on July 24, 2007 8:14 PM:

Anyone familiar with the horrendous tortures engaged in by various Latin American militaries during the 70s and 80s, but some still continuing today, anyone familiar with those knows that doctors were present not only to monitor the condition of the victims, but also to educate on the nervous system to intensify the pain. Some of the most hellacious accounts I've heard are ones in which victims are in such unimaginable pain that they beg to be allowed to die, but doctors are called in to revive them with serums to keep them going to receive more sadism. There is evidence from Guatemala and Chile that the US had a hand in such training. And it's not about extracting "intelligence," it's about setting an example for the population and about sadism, pure and simple.

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