« previous | MUCK HOME | next »
Specter: Gonzales A "Wily Witness"
So here's Sen. Arlen Specter's (R-PA) verdict on Alberto Gonzales' testimony, delivered during this morning's Senate Judiciary Committee hearing with Karl Rove's aide Scott Jennings.
Gonzales, he says, sought to mislead the committee, but should not be investigated for perjury, because his testimony, while misleading, doesn't rise to that standard.
Reading from a Supreme Court opinion on the statute of perjury, which said that a witness cannot be convicted of perjury simply because he is a "wily witness" who "shrewdly" evades the questioner by speaking "the literal truth," Specter said that that's what we have here. Gonzales is certainly "wily" and sought to mislead -- but he spoke, in Specter's judgment, "the literal truth." (Here's how that might be.)
But "just because it's not perjury," Specter said, "doesn't mean it's the way that the highest ranking legal officer in the United States ought to respond to a Senate inquiry." Specter went on to say that he thought that the conclusion of the committee's investigation of the U.S. attorney firings would be to "end the tenure of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales." When that conclusion will come, however, no one knows.
Comments (50)
Rebel wrote on August 2, 2007 11:59 AM:Specter caves in ..... again. He's nothing but a lap dog for Bush as I have said, time and time .... again.
Anonymous wrote on August 2, 2007 12:01 PM:How come that same standard didn't apply to Bill Clinton lying about getting a BJ?
asdf wrote on August 2, 2007 12:05 PM:Specter did not cave, he stayed firm. To say he caved implies that he ever wavered; he absolutely did not have any intention of holding Gonzo accountable. It was a charade, all of it.
Anonymous wrote on August 2, 2007 12:11 PM:Why doesn’t the Senate call for the impeachment of Gonzales? This is insanity!!!
They should stay in Washington and get it done. Failure to recess will also prevent the inevitable recess appointments.
If they dare to come back after recess with indignation about the appointments made during their absence, with God as my witness, I will never vote Democratic again. That would be proof that they do support the rape of America.
JackieB wrote on August 2, 2007 12:14 PM:Specter talks tough. Specter backs down. Again.
osage wrote on August 2, 2007 12:18 PM:Unwilling to tell the truth, the "whole" truth and "nothing but" the truth and or giving deliberately MISLEADING sworn testimony is OBSTRUCTION and a violation of the sworn oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If, while sworn in to tell the truth, he's trying to MISLEAD a Senate investigation, he's OBSTRUCTING that investigation, which is deliberate OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE and an act of PERJURY! Specter is a true Bushie, nothing more!
osage wrote on August 2, 2007 12:19 PM:Unwilling to tell the truth, the "whole" truth and "nothing but" the truth and or giving deliberately MISLEADING sworn testimony is OBSTRUCTION and a violation of the sworn oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If, while sworn in to tell the truth, he's trying to MISLEAD a Senate investigation, he's OBSTRUCTING that investigation, which is deliberate OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE and an act of PERJURY! Specter is a true Bushie, nothing more!
Crust wrote on August 2, 2007 12:20 PM:Even if it's not perjury, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not a felony (or for that matter an impeachable offense).
Deliberately misleading Congress is also a felony. This is important to understand, in part because Gonzales' statements to the 109th Congress were not under oath and hence could not be perjurious, but still could be criminal.
Here's one discussion of the point (in this case specifically in reply to Ruth Marcus of WaPo; link on my handle):
'Ruth Marcus makes much of the high standards for proving a charge of perjury. So long as as Gonzales did not literally tell a lie, she believes, he must escape a perjury charge. She freely concedes, however, "In his Senate testimony last week, Gonzales once again dissembled and misled."
Unfortunately for Gonzales, perjury is not the only crime with which he can be charged. (In fact, he was not even under oath for his Feb. 6, 2006, testimony.) Lying to and intentionally misleading Congress is also a serious crime, and by Marcus' own characterization, Gonzales apparently has stepped into it.
The criminal-code section in question is 18 USC 1505, "Obstruction of proceedings before departments, agencies, and committees." It says in relevant part:
"Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede ... any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress —
"Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years ... or both."
Importantly, the definition of "corruptly" above is stated broadly in 18 USC 1515:
"As used in section 1505, the term 'corruptly' means acting with an improper purpose, personally or by influencing another, including making a false or misleading statement, or withholding, concealing, altering, or destroying a document or other information."'
Crust wrote on August 2, 2007 12:23 PM:Anonymous at 12:11: Note that impeachment starts in the House not the Senate. Rep Inslee (with 14 or so cosponsors) is trying to start that ball rolling...
chabuka wrote on August 2, 2007 12:27 PM:Invite Specter to a "blanket party", making him guest of honor.........
sanfelipe bob wrote on August 2, 2007 12:28 PM:Let me get this straight. Arlen Specter has the power to declare someone guilty or not guilty on his opinion alone??? What do the rest of the committee members think or is that irrelevant?
NCDem wrote on August 2, 2007 12:28 PM:The accompanying picture on TPM main page is clearly that of a man who knows that he's sold his soul.
For what profit hath a man who gaineth his life, but loseth his soul?
NCDem wrote on August 2, 2007 12:29 PM:The accompanying picture on TPM main page is clearly that of a man who knows that he's sold his soul.
SC: profit. For what profit hath a man who gaineth his life, but loseth his soul?
Rebel wrote on August 2, 2007 12:31 PM:To the nameless troll (aka Jake)@ 12:11.
Republicans had the majority for four years and did nothing but protect and coddle Gonzales. In fact Specter as chairman of this same committee just last year refused to put Gonzales under oath.
Republicans still can do something about Gonzales's misleading (aka perjury) statements but they don't. Remember misleading shows intent and that is exactly what perjury is.
And you want to blame the democrats????
As face shooter Cheney would say, " Go f*ck yourself."
Anonymous wrote on August 2, 2007 12:32 PM:If Leahy held a press conference today, this afternoon, which expressed the appropriate outrage and called for the House to begin impeachment immediately, it would happen.
What will happen is more stalling, whining, sighing, and letters. In other words, empty gestures intended to consume the next 1 ½ years. It’s disgraceful.
Anonymous wrote on August 2, 2007 12:38 PM:Rebel-Yes, I do blame the Democrats, that is possible without absolving the Republicans. Of course the Republicans enabled this, and continue to do so, but it is long past time for the Democrats to stand up.
It is possible for some people to hold two thoughts in their mind at the same time. It is regretful that you are not one of them.
Chesire11 wrote on August 2, 2007 12:45 PM:Arlen Specter is a poluted whore.
moondancer wrote on August 2, 2007 12:46 PM:So this was specters' plan all along. Give fredo what lil cover that is available. As a Pa. citizen for 20 plus yrs, its amazing to watch arlen play the same simple routine over and over.
Andrew wrote on August 2, 2007 12:57 PM:Act outraged at latest GOP indiscretion, show his moderate to almost left leaning stripes, then quietly reverse and comply with the wishes of his handlers. Then he has soundbites for later use of either side of any issue. He is a straight party hack of the lowest form
Both the Democratic and Republican parties have to be the two most laughable bodies every heaped upon a society.
Arlen Specter's Dad wrote on August 2, 2007 12:58 PM:The Republican party gets to start a needless war, breaks with all manner of fiscal responsibility digging a deeper hole for ourselves as well as generations to come. They flout just about every law we are supposed to abide by. They have lied to Congress and the American people while turdblossom ( Rove ) gets to continue thumbing his nose at anyone willing to go blind looking at him. The AG is a liar and yet as hard as the good ole Democrats try, NO ONE seems to be paying for any crimes. Hell, you can even out a CIA officer a get away with it if your a good bud of the president.
The Democrats are really starting to suck ass big time. This Congress is just more of the same. We’re still in a war that was our gift in the form of a lie, The AG apparently isn’t going anywhere soon, Pelosi backs down off tougher cafe standards for US auto manufacturers and both parties actually have the nerve to leave for a summer recess without accomplishing much nor having anyone convicted of anything.
What a great country of sheeple we live in. This has to be one of the most ineffective and destructive administrations in history and yet all of the outrage seems to have disappeared fom the bloggosphere while a few more of your Constitutional rights continue to be trampled on. We as a people deserve this and then some. Stupid is as stupid does I guess.
I'm so ashamed of my son, Arlen. He's turned out to be such a pussy.
Lin Lofley wrote on August 2, 2007 12:59 PM:Sen. Specter reminds me of the faithful old dog who growls when you come in the front door, but always comes over and sniffs your crotch in the end.
I recall too that, much as he is in the case of Gonzalez, he was against torture before he was for it.
Lin Lofley wrote on August 2, 2007 12:59 PM:Sen. Specter reminds me of the faithful old dog who growls when you come in the front door, but always comes over and sniffs your crotch in the end.
I recall too that, much as he is in the case of Gonzalez, he was against torture before he was for it.
Anonymous wrote on August 2, 2007 1:07 PM:What about lies of omission? Specter doesn't seem to realize that you can lie in more than one way.
Mark F. wrote on August 2, 2007 1:08 PM:If anyone knows wiley, it's Arlen.
osage wrote on August 2, 2007 1:15 PM:The Senate needs to do a code red on Specter. He doesn't know enough to know that being sworn in means you have to be fully honest and fully forthcoming, not misleading, slippery or forgetful. It is possible for anyone to have forgotten so much to be competent enough to be Attorney General of the United States of America? Since when is violating a sworn oath to tell the truth not considered perjury?
PrahaPartizan wrote on August 2, 2007 1:20 PM:By Specter Rules, Clinton didn't commit perjury either. Unfortunately, doesn't making a presentation with the intent to deceive also fall under the purview of perjury. I could swear that's what we were told repeatedly by the Republicans. They certainly couldn't have gone after Clinton on perjury based on what he actually said, because he was being far to clever by half in his statements. Specter reveals he continues to play the harlequin for the naked emperor.
bjobotts wrote on August 2, 2007 1:21 PM:I don't see that Spectre "caved in". What he says is, unfortunately, techniclly correct. But more important than keeping the focus on the words of Gonzales, I wish the committee would focus more on what the program he speaks of was about. I believe Gonzales should be impeached but I still want this committee to find out what this "program" was that Ashcroft would not sign off on. I mean they knew Ashcroft was sedated on narcotics, he was in SICU for god's sake. They depended on his being alone and sedated to get his signature. Why? That's what I want the committee to focus on.
moondancer wrote on August 2, 2007 1:22 PM:What boggles the mind is, how did all this illegal activity go on with such a astute watchdog as arlen at the helm of judiciary from 2001 to 2006?
I mean who would want to mess with him??
lll wrote on August 2, 2007 1:30 PM:to my mind, gonzalez will be gone by mid-august and replaced by one of bush's infamous recess appointments.
that would explain why they've drawn it out this way and also why gonzo was so disturbingly cavalier in all his testimonies, especially the last one.
would that reid saw this possibility and refused to recess the senate. given the publicly stated opinions of schumer and specter (and likely private ones of many others) regarding the way roberts and alito have broken their promises to keep to judicial precedent, i'd say the leadership should just set up a recess-free zone for the duration of the 110th!
if reid did that, i'd be thrilled to give the whole crew a raise!
woodguy wrote on August 2, 2007 1:33 PM:Arlen is a superb judge of character. He is giving Gonzo the same tough treatment he gave Ira Einhorne when he was prosecutor in Philly in the seventies--he let him skate. However, Arlen got some additional face time to bloviate about nothing in front of the camera, which I am beginning to realize more and more is what this is all about.
moondancer wrote on August 2, 2007 1:44 PM:Yes, that was my point. He is master of face time w/news cycles, moderate voters remember that, but seldom see that he reversed himself to align with those who allowed him to keep his chair.
travy wrote on August 2, 2007 1:48 PM:Being a GOP senator in a blue state can be rough. Compare him with Santorum. Really the only difference is perception. They voted the same way most of the time
i'd say specter just put the final nail in his coffin. history will not judge this gop kindly and specter perhaps had a slim chance of distancing himself from the bushies at this late hour and perhaps saving his seat and legacy somewhat, but he's toast now...
Anonymous wrote on August 2, 2007 1:54 PM:to my mind, gonzalez will be gone by mid-august and replaced by one of bush's infamous recess appointments.
that would explain why they've drawn it out this way and also why gonzo was so disturbingly cavalier in all his testimonies, especially the last one.
would that reid saw this possibility and refused to recess the senate. given the publicly stated opinions of schumer and specter (and likely private ones of many others) regarding the way roberts and alito have broken their promises to keep to judicial precedent, i'd say the leadership should just set up a recess-free zone for the duration of the 110th!
if reid did that, i'd be thrilled to give the whole crew a raise!
Richard L. Adlof wrote on August 2, 2007 2:14 PM:I think that Specter's real issue here is that there so farging many bullets . . . He has never been able to wrap his mind around more than a single shot.
Ralph Kramden wrote on August 2, 2007 2:27 PM:Atrios - right again!
Matt wrote on August 2, 2007 2:36 PM:http://atrios.blogspot.com/2007_07_29_archive.html#5481808051559734143
I agree with what Specter said.
What Gonzales said was wily but not demonstrably false.
And Specter seems right- why pursue the perjury case if it cannot be won?
I liked what he said about ending Gonzales tenure. But he didn't specify how that would happen.
lll wrote on August 2, 2007 2:50 PM:to my mind, gonzalez will be gone by mid-august and replaced by one of bush's infamous recess appointments.
that would explain why they've drawn it out this way and also why gonzo was so disturbingly cavalier in all his testimonies, especially the last one.
would that reid saw this possibility and refused to recess the senate. given the publicly stated opinions of schumer and specter (and likely private ones of many others) regarding the way roberts and alito have broken their promises to keep to judicial precedent, i'd say the leadership should just set up a recess-free zone for the duration of the 110th!
if reid did that, i'd be thrilled to give the whole crew a raise!
Bill from Dover wrote on August 2, 2007 2:57 PM:And the blow-fish ... deflates again.
johnnydoughey wrote on August 2, 2007 3:00 PM:Another example that proves we have entirely lost the ability to govern ouselves. The bureaucrats have been practicing oligarchy for a long time now. Apparently we folks, despite the facts and data, are still in denial. The water is coming close to a boil and we are still sitting there enjoying thhe warmth.
Does anyone reading this believe for one moment, that if you were standing in front of a judge at a local level giving these answers, that the judge would conclude that misleading the court... although wrong, was not enough to throw you in jail?
Of course not. any of us would last about five minutes before we were hauled off.
None of these rules apply at the "important people" levels. People at this level cannot be treated like a common criminal because, after all, if a few important people were to begin to be treated like the common folk, the nation, as it is today, would not last.
Well, I for one am praying that our nation as it is today does NOT last. I kind of like the idea that "All men are created equal". I somewhat remember that from school. I think it was important to some country in the past for one reason or another. I don't believe that country exists today... wish I could remember it's name...
beachcomber wrote on August 2, 2007 3:10 PM:I'm quite amazed how many people feel it's OK to mislead when under oath. If there is ever a time that you must testify under oath, why don't you try to mislead everyone. See how fast you are brought up on perjury charges.
Specter is nothing but a tool. He will huff and puff, but he will never blow the house down.
JEP wrote on August 2, 2007 3:37 PM:...so now Inspector Specter's got a "magic liar" theory to go along with the magic bullet theory?!?
betty wrote on August 2, 2007 3:41 PM:It makes ones stomach turn to see how Spector vascillates constantly. Hes in Bush's pocket and does exactly what Bush wants. I think hes up for re-election and should get thrown out. Why isn't there a law that they should only have 2 terms in office and then they are out. Also, if convicted of any criminal offenses they loose their pensions and healthplans. The democrats haven't got the balls they were born with. The republicans are heartless bastards who don't care one thing about America! So where does that leave this country?
Dave Adams wrote on August 2, 2007 4:00 PM:Crust:
I copied and pasted your citation of 18 USC 1505 and 18 USC 1515 to the emeial I just sent to my Representative.
I hope you don't mind.
Anonymous wrote on August 2, 2007 4:16 PM:Don't be too upset with Arlen. He's just admitting his impotence whereas the Democrats, like caged gorillas, are still trying to act out their virility by thumping their chests.. What a bunch of losersand do-nothings. Bushco criminality is the irresistible force and the Democratic Congress is a feather.
The Skeptical Cynic wrote on August 2, 2007 4:22 PM:Specter has been a stooge for the powers that be his entire political life. Remember the single pristine bullet making two 90 degree turns after exiting Kennedy's neck,and on and on and on. That leopard has not changed his spots in more than 40 years. One would have to be delusional to think good ole Arley would do the right thing now.
Anonymous wrote on August 2, 2007 4:23 PM:...so now Inspector Specter's got a "magic liar" theory to go along with the magic bullet theory?!? Posted by: JEP
Yes, and perhaps the Dems will imminently disclose the existence of a "secret plan" for ending Bushco's Rape of America.
Security Code "sound" and fury, signifying nada.
Dennis wrote on August 2, 2007 4:42 PM:Specter is attempting to speak for the committee. Witness after witness has told this committee and the entire Congress to go to hell, we are above the law. Specter is doing his damnedest to stretch this out until nothing can be done. Talk about a forked tongue, Specter is the epitemy.
You don't have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
Richard M. Mathews wrote on August 2, 2007 8:01 PM:Why Specter is wrong:
The relevent law is not perjury, it is concealment from Congress of a material fact (18 U.S.C. 1001).
While perjury might not cover a wily witness telling the literal truth, section 1001 explicitly covers a witness who "falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact."
A wily witness is using a "trick" and so is covered by this law.
The U.S. Attorneys Manual even states that "The statute also covers half-truths where there is a duty to speak the truth."
mbbsdphil wrote on August 2, 2007 9:17 PM:Sen. Specter is a Quisling; he is a govt leader, a Senator who often mouths noble and ethical statements and demands performance as promised. When it comes time to act, he does whatever his overlords tell him. He's like a pill that cautions against four-hour long erections, when all it really does is make it difficult to use the bathroom. All huff and no puff. The voters of Pennsylvania were kind enough to relieve us of Rick Santorum. When will they do the same with Mr. Specter?
mbbsdphil wrote on August 2, 2007 9:18 PM:Sen. Specter is a Quisling; he is a govt leader, a Senator who often mouths noble and ethical statements and demands performance as promised. When it comes time to act, he does whatever his overlords tell him. He's like a pill that cautions against four-hour long erections, when all it really does is make it difficult to use the bathroom. All huff and no puff. The voters of Pennsylvania were kind enough to relieve us of Rick Santorum. When will they do the same with Mr. Specter?