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Iraqis Order Blackwater out of Iraq -- But Will It Leave?
Following a Baghdad shootout yesterday that left at least nine civilians dead, security-contractor giant Blackwater will no longer be permitted to operate in Iraq, according to the Iraqi Interior Ministry.
The Interior Ministry's decision is likely to be a source of friction between the U.S. Embassy and Iraq. Not only does Blackwater guard many important U.S. officials there, but the embassy is unlikely to want a precedent established that allows the Iraqi government to kick out U.S. contractors for excessive use of force.
Yesterday's incident involved an insurgent attack on a State Department convoy in the Sunni neighborhood of Mansour in western Baghdad. Blackwater personnel guarding the motorcade returned fire -- "to defend themselves," according to a State Department official quoted by The Washington Post. A Post reporter on the scene in Mansour witnessed Blackwater's Little Bird helicopters "firing into the streets." Almost immediately, an Interior Ministry spokesman said the company's license to operate in Iraq would be revoked.
However, it's unclear how the Interior Ministry would expel Blackwater. Unlike other private U.S. security firms in Iraq, as of May, Blackwater hadn't registered with the Iraqi government to operate in Iraq. The Coalition Provisional Authority -- the now-defunct occupational government -- issued a decree in 2004 (pdf) immunizing security contractors from Iraqi prosecution and placing their operations under the jurisdiction of U.S. authorities.
Blackwater, one of many security firms safeguarding U.S. personnel in Iraq, has an estimated 1,000 employees operating in the country, and Iraq-related contracts with the State Department worth over $100 million. Official estimates place between 20,000 and 30,000 private security contractors in Iraq -- the equivalent of about six U.S. Army brigades. Their operations are controversial in and outside Iraq: in May, the company was involved in two firefights in as many days in eastern Baghdad, right on the doorstep of an incensed Interior Ministry. One of the incidents began after an Iraqi driver drove too closely to a Blackwater convoy, resulting in the contractors killing the driver after attempting, unsuccessfully, to wave him away.
In Congressional testimony last week, Ambassador Ryan Crocker praised private security firms working in Iraq. He is unlikely to allow the Interior Ministry to expel Blackwater without a fight: not only is Blackwater a contractor with the U.S. government, its personnel and those of its rival rival firms keep Crocker and many of his colleagues alive. Expect the ministry's decision to spark a serious diplomatic row between the U.S. and the Iraqi government, which will be under public pressure to demonstrate that it's holding the firm accountable.
Comments (78)
Chris Kapilla wrote on September 17, 2007 10:36 AM:We have to keep those goons killiing people in Iraq so they don't come home and start killing people here.
anonymouse wrote on September 17, 2007 10:51 AM:It's about time...
Blackwater... and other contractors were exempted from the laws ans regulations of both Iraq AND the United States since the company 1st went into the war zone.
It's just another way to easily start a war (these guys are contractors added to the number of soldiers we actually need. Anytime the administration talks about how many soldiers we need in a war, it can be minimized. After all, we can actually double, triple or even quadruple the number of folks we send off to war and still have few "soldiers".
It's also an easy way to later minimize the number of troops in order to appease us common folk... "WE only have 50,000 troops in Iraq!" (not counting the 350,000 contracted troops)...
Our leaders have completely dismissed (in their minds) the backlash of the public. It's much easier to go to war now that the draft is gone and we can just hire all the soldiers we need to fight for us.
Isn't it GREAT to be a superpower with absolutely no accountability and an unlimited defense budget! It won't be long now before our absolute power takes care of the earth's population explosion forever... (remember... we no longer have an equal rival so we ARE the bully town bully) IMHO
FMArouet wrote on September 17, 2007 10:52 AM:Blackwater looks like a prime candidate for some increased scrutiny from Congressional oversight committees.
If Blackwater does end up being expelled from Iraq, what would happen to its personnel and equipment? Might they be conveniently deployed near Washington, D.C. and other major cities, especially in Blue States?
Does anyone remember the political roles of Brownshirts and Blackshirts in the last century? Oh, and how about that Praetorian Guard two millennia ago?
Maybe Congress could increase pressure for a swift U.S. withdrawal from the morass of Iraq by defunding Blackwater as a first step. The last time I checked, Congress still retains the power of the purse--at least on paper.
And if corporate entities can be regarded as "persons" under the law, perhaps Blackwater as an organization should be a candidate for "capital punishment." No more federal funding, no more contracts, no more raison d'être.
johnnydoughey wrote on September 17, 2007 11:02 AM:Anybody really think that Iraq was ever (or ever will be) actually free...
Anybody really think any autonomous country on earth would EVER agree to exempt foreign workers from prosecution for felonies... of course not!
Only puppet governments would agree to that...
blained wrote on September 17, 2007 11:08 AM:I can't wait to see Bush explain what "sovereign" means again.
moondancer wrote on September 17, 2007 11:08 AM:Am I the only one that finds the fact that we employ 30K mercenaries in Iraq a problem? They aren't accountable, they're very expensive. Is there any govt oversight of this for hire ghost army? I'd like this to become a front page issue.
della Rovere wrote on September 17, 2007 11:20 AM:"Iraqis Order Blackwater out of Iraq -- But Will It Leave?"
No. Why should it. It's an AMERICAN company.
cynicalgirl wrote on September 17, 2007 11:21 AM:moondancer, Washington Post says it's more like 130,000.
modmom wrote on September 17, 2007 11:24 AM:Perhaps if the Democrats could pass legislation banning the profiteering in Iraq, we could put an end to this war. Blackwater, Halliburton and the rest of the bush corporate cronies who are obscenely profitting from this war have no incentive to end the conflicts. Legislation should be passed to stop this despicable practice and consultants need to be audited to regain some of the taxpayers money.
cskendrick wrote on September 17, 2007 11:25 AM:Blackwater's base in NC is ringed by United States armed forces bases.
Either that makes you feel good or bad. Depends on one's confidence that the oath of service, to protect and uphold the Constitution, is still being taken seriously for the most part.
Jolly Ranchero wrote on September 17, 2007 11:29 AM:Wait a minute. I thought Iraq had an elected leader? I thought the country was independent?
I fully expect the IoM minister to either retract the statement, or be dead in 24 hours.
Why WOULDN'T Blackwater off this guy? They're immune from prosecution!!
Jimbo wrote on September 17, 2007 11:32 AM:Don't be fooled, these people are not your friends. You should fear them more than the terrorists themselves - they get paid to kill.
Jimbo wrote on September 17, 2007 11:32 AM:Don't be fooled, these people are not your friends. You should fear them more than the terrorists themselves - they get paid alot of money to kill.
Me_again wrote on September 17, 2007 11:35 AM:Blackwater, one of many security firms safeguarding U.S. personnel in Iraq, has an estimated 1,000 employees operating in the country, and Iraq-related contracts with the State Department worth over $100 million.
Wow, only 1,000 employees, not much overhead for a $100 million contact is it? US government contracts are so fine. God bless Cheney and Bush for their generosity.
Todd wrote on September 17, 2007 11:38 AM:The sad part is that US taxpayers paid tens of millions to train each and every Blackwater employee - they are all ex US special forces operatives... Then we wonder why our special operations forces have a "retention" problem... Taxpayers pay to train these guys to be the toughest operators in the world, and then as soon as their military commitment is up, they leave for Blackwater, with no rules (ok, fewer, actually), and high six-figure salaries.
Montesquieu Grenouille III wrote on September 17, 2007 11:39 AM:It'll be of great interest to see how this plays out. If Crocker & Co. were really smart they would tell Blackwater to comply with the Iraqi order pronto. In fact, the whole business could be turned to the Administration's advantage, a big PR coup demonstrating the "independence" of Iraq's government. Another purple finger moment, in fact.
Little Bird Driver wrote on September 17, 2007 11:45 AM:Will that happen? Given the thumb-fingered incompetence already amply demonstrated, I doubt it.
When will you bleeding-heart liberals recognize that war is not a debate or contest waged by gentlemen. If it weren't for the concessions already made to pacify you and quell your unrealistic notions regarding such conflict, we'd still be employing tactics like those used by Gen. Lemay when he chose to firebomb Tokyo. Can it be that we hate al Quaeda and the insurgents they muster that much less than we did the Japanese? I, for one, don't think so. If we had the stomach to prosecute a war the way it should be, Fallujah wouldn't have two bricks still cemented together and our troops would have been home victorious two years ago.
Jim wrote on September 17, 2007 11:46 AM:The Iraq government can't be allowed to order people out of their own country. After all we've done to -- I mean for -- them.
molly wrote on September 17, 2007 11:51 AM:When they stand up we'll stand down. They just stood up.
jim wrote on September 17, 2007 11:52 AM:The Iraq government can't be allowed to order people out of their own country. After all we've done to -- I mean for -- them.
mike Mid City wrote on September 17, 2007 12:00 PM:Blackwater is Bush's corporate brown shirts.
It is also the poster child for the world's most dangerous idea, corporate for profit war.
Think about this world, Blackwater can make donations to whatever politician promises war.
May God forgive America.
Me_again wrote on September 17, 2007 12:04 PM:Iraq ends US security firm licence
--Aljazeera.net
Red Herring wrote on September 17, 2007 12:05 PM:The nerve of these people in Iraq - what do they think they are? A democracy or something?
Is a CPA edict still operative at all? I would think not now that Iraq does have a government set up.
One way or another there's got to be some accountability for those contractors... it sounds like they get out of hand on a regular basis.
jeffgee wrote on September 17, 2007 12:08 PM:It's been some bad days for Blackwater lately. They were involved until recently in police training at the University of Illinois Chicago,
From the Chicago Tribune:
"The University of Illinois has canceled a partnership between its prestigious police-training institute and controversial military contractor Blackwater USA, citing a possible conflict of interest.University officials say the institute's director, Tom Dempsey, was not upfront about a personal agreement he made to work as a contractor for Blackwater, even as he planned the official partnership. The university continues to investigate the case while Dempsey remains on leave, using accrued vacation time to work for Blackwater in Afghanistan training local police in drug enforcement.
University officials began investigating the ties with Blackwater after a Tribune report in late July. Since then, the Tribune has obtained e-mails between Dempsey and other university employees showing he was arranging Blackwater's partnership with the university while putting a deal for himself into motion."
Hardly wrote on September 17, 2007 12:11 PM:Blackwater also has a training facility in western Illinois that is making some of the neighbors nervous with the weapons training exercises.
Why doesn't anyone call'em what they are....Mercenaries for hire.
Candyce wrote on September 17, 2007 12:11 PM:About 60 military troops have been subject to court martial for acts committed in Iraq. Not a single contractor. Not a single congressional oversight hearing into Blackwater contracts or activities. There is no accountability for contractors. I have found this use of armed contractors to be one of the more disturbing aspects of this war, and I hope this incident will finally move Congress to start asking questions, and indeed, even stop the use of these companies.
Of course, no contractors means we either must leave Iraq or institute a draft, so don't expect anything to be done about it.
TheraP wrote on September 17, 2007 12:12 PM:BlackWater may leave. But that's no guarantee it's employees won't take positions with other contractors. Indeed, in today's Washington Post, Walter Lipman tells us that the govt is already advertising for contractors to take the places of troops who are being transferred from supply units to combat duty.
JustOneGuy wrote on September 17, 2007 12:26 PM:This could be a major event, depending on how it is handled. To me, there are three possibilities.
1. The US government sides with the Iraqi government and orders Blackwater USA out of Iraq. This could be spun in a very positive light, generating all sorts of stories about the independence of the Iraqi government and the honor of the US government. Meanwhile, the mercenaries could just change employers and Blackwater could be "compensated" quietly by BushCo.
2. The US government sides with Blackwater USA and shows how ridiculously weak the "Iraqi democracy" is, generating lots of bad press for Bush, al-Maliki, etc.
3. Scenario 1 or 2 happens and there is very little mainstream coverage.
I'm betting on 3.
EH wrote on September 17, 2007 12:32 PM:People don't call them "mercenaries for hire," because that would be redundant.
JimBob wrote on September 17, 2007 12:38 PM:Blackwater had to pull a permit to operate in Iraq? Did the U.S. invasion forces apply to the same governmental body for a permit?
jeffgee wrote on September 17, 2007 12:40 PM:How grateful we should be to have people like tough guy Little Bird Driver in search of target-rich environments to bomb. He's another "more rubble less trouble" neocon warmonger.
moyockian wrote on September 17, 2007 12:42 PM:It was the cursed liberals who kept Gen. LeMay from bombing his enemies back to the stone age in the 60s. Yeah, that's the ticket. Blame the liberals for the Iraq mess that would have all worked out great if more bombing had been done. Bombing is a grat way to win the hearts and minds of the people being "liberated".
He may have one more chance to see his wishes granted if Cheney finds a way to start a war with Iran.
Stop comparing Iraq to WW2. There's no comparison.
Blackwater is a very dirty business indeed. Led by Erik Prince, the secretive former SEAL ultra right wing multi-millionaire (Opus Dei, Sovereign Military Order of Malta--yep, truth stranger than fiction), the company has been a conduit through which millions of dollars in "black" money (via classified contracts) have flowed from the hands of taxpayers directly into the hands of the GOP and Republican candidates. Even stranger is their general counsel, Joseph Schmitz, who is obsessed with all things Third Reich and who was forced out as IG at the Pentagon under criminal investigation. These guys need to be shut down, and fast.
moyockian wrote on September 17, 2007 12:44 PM:Blackwater is a very dirty business indeed. Led by Erik Prince, the secretive former SEAL ultra right wing multi-millionaire (Opus Dei, Sovereign Military Order of Malta--yep, truth stranger than fiction), the company has been a conduit through which millions of dollars in "black" money (via classified contracts) have flowed from the hands of taxpayers directly into the hands of the GOP and Republican candidates. Even stranger is their general counsel, Joseph Schmitz, who is obsessed with all things Third Reich and who was forced out as IG at the Pentagon under criminal investigation. These guys need to be shut down, and fast.
couser wrote on September 17, 2007 12:55 PM:Bring the US Military forces home...
TheraP wrote on September 17, 2007 1:06 PM:but
Leave the private security forces (the cost s would then be cut in half) and then the mercenary types could have their jollies and we are out of it.
Ok. All those who have killed Iraqis, please leave! It's as simple as that.
moondancer wrote on September 17, 2007 1:07 PM:Finding and cutting off the funds seems like a promising enterprise. Get Murtha to start screaming about the cost of a hired gun vs. a citizen soldier.
melior wrote on September 17, 2007 1:07 PM:I like the idea of having all these departments identifying their budget allocation and agreements and congress taking control of this. Seems like bushco is using these guys to shield themselves from high crimes and misdemeanors, also shrinking the visible scale of troop deployment.
Slaughtering civilians in the streets is unlawful without a proper permit!
clay wrote on September 17, 2007 1:17 PM:moondancer and cynicalgirl:
Depends on whether you are referring to "contractors" (130,000-actually probably more) or mercenaries (security types). Remember that the military contracts out a great deal of it's daily chores (food service, supplies, transportation, etc.)
George wrote on September 17, 2007 1:23 PM:If the Democrats in Congress do not rise up in anger at this abuse of power and lawlessness, and do something substantial to end this war, I am not sure that I can remain a Democrat.
Enough!
?W wrote on September 17, 2007 1:48 PM:We've heard many times that when the Iraqi's stand up, we'll stand down.
Well, it seems the Iraqi Interior Ministry is now standing up for Iraqi sovereignty.
Other recent Iraqi attempts to 'stand up':
1.)The majority of polled Iraqis who continue to want America out, and regretably, believe it's okay to kill us to make us leave.
2.)The majority of the Iraqi Parliment that has voted (multiple times?) to end foreign occupation.
3.) The Iraqi Prime Minister recently saying that America can 'leave whenever it wants', that Iraq can handle it's own security when the U.S does leave, and that Iraq can 'find friends elsewhere'.
4.) Iraqi lawmakers, just last Saturday, saying that America should stop blaming Iraqis for Iraqs problems and should admit it's own mistakes and take responsibility for them.
Hmmm... The Iraqis seem to be standing up more and more...
Naked Gun wrote on September 17, 2007 1:58 PM:"Just think, next time I shoot someone, I could be arrested."
- Lt. Frank Drebin, Naked Gun
Michael Lafferty wrote on September 17, 2007 1:58 PM:'Little Bird Driver?'
All Army rotary wing pilots are officers—chief warrant or commissioned—and hence clearly understand, respect and enforce the the rules of engagement in a theater.
Your 'implicit claim' that you are an Army aviator is clearly bogus: your words betray you as someone who has never trained for or deployed to a combat zone, and denigrates the hundreds of thousands of enlisted personnel, non-commissioned officers, warrant officers and commissioned officers who have fought in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.
Pretty clearly, the closest you have been to combat is your daily tussle with a keyboard, and the endless battles you play out in your feeble mind. I would suggest that if you ever crawl out of your hole that you sign up to serve, but realize that even with the greatly relaxed enlistment standards, you would not be accepted. Maybe there's hope, however: surely Blackwater would accept you…
Naked Gun wrote on September 17, 2007 1:59 PM:"Just think, next time I shoot someone, I could be arrested."
- Lt. Frank Drebin, Naked Gun
?W wrote on September 17, 2007 2:15 PM:RE: "Well, it seems the Iraqi Interior Ministry is now standing up for Iraqi sovereignty.
Other recent Iraqi attempts to 'stand up':"
I forgot one-
5.) The 16 Sunni and Shia "power broker" tribal leaders that participated very recently in the 'Helsinki Agreement', making both the termination of sectarian violence, as well as foreign occupation, top priorities.
Not sure if this is what the Bush Admin was thinking by Iraqi's standing up.
Powkat wrote on September 17, 2007 2:22 PM:How will Iraq get them out? Good grief, the country is overrun with weapons and people who are delighted to use them - all they need to do is whisper in some militia leader's ear to start targeting Blackwater agents and they will be gone in a month.
And yes, I do believe that when Bush /Cheney try to stage their coup they will use mercenaries, not US troops.
moondancer wrote on September 17, 2007 2:32 PM:Didn't bush send Blackwater into New Orleans after Katrina? The more I think about this, the more I want a tinfoil hat.
john wrote on September 17, 2007 2:39 PM:Chris Kapilla, you are a true idiot. you and your kind are the real out of control goons that keep killing people.
ACS wrote on September 17, 2007 2:42 PM:I can't wait to see these hired-thug war profiteers prosecuted for murder like they deserve.
dave wrote on September 17, 2007 2:55 PM:The shooting incident isn't the REASON for expelling Halliburton; it's the EXCUSE. That distinction is all too often lost in political discussions. Leaders decide they want to do something politically difficult, and wait for the opposition to provide them with a "reason" to do what they want to do anyway (cf Obama's snub of FOX News way back when, theoretically over the "madrassa" issue but really just an excuse to score points).
Someone, or a coalition of someones, within the Iraqi government finally thinks they have the power to get rid of Blackwater. That, or they want a bribe/cut of the money that Blackwater gets. Or they're sending an oblique message to Bush, or his cronies. Whatever, the real motives are too buried behind the politics for those of us on the outside to see. So don't make assumptions about WHY this is happening... just be curious that it's happening at all, and keep an eye out to see where it leads.
skinnychef wrote on September 17, 2007 2:56 PM:it would be great tro see these guys prosecuted, but i doubt it will ever happen....corporate mercenaries-- scary stuff!!!
skinnychef wrote on September 17, 2007 2:57 PM:it would be great tro see these guys prosecuted, but i doubt it will ever happen....corporate mercenaries-- scary stuff!!!
anonymouse wrote on September 17, 2007 3:27 PM:I believe Congress (yes, our loyal Democrats also) passed the regulations exempting those contractors from all military and nonmilitary restrictions.
If I'm not mistaken, several congressmen are attempting to investigate Blackwater alresdy due to tyhe deaths of some its own employees, but they are restricted due to the former regulations they had already signed...
Isn't it nice to know we have those folks back there in Washington who really care enough to read the contracts they sign... yeh, right!
Candyce wrote on September 17, 2007 6:06 PM:Don't count on Blackwater being thrown out of the country. Looks like Maliki will be muscled back into compliance with American objectives.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice plans to place a call to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki on Monday to discuss reports that his government has banned Blackwater USA after an alleged gunfight that reportedly left eight civilians dead.
http://tinyurl.com/327vb8
Teaeopy wrote on September 17, 2007 6:09 PM:Revenge for what Blackwater operatives do is sometimes directed against US troops. There should be an outcry over that.
DonnaG wrote on September 17, 2007 6:17 PM:How much of the 300 million per day of our tax dollars going to Iraq are for paying these mercenaries? Anyone know?
blogenfreude wrote on September 17, 2007 6:33 PM:Iraq's Bush-installed government is hiding in the Green Zone. Nothing will change.
palm pilot wrote on September 17, 2007 7:03 PM:how come there is no outrage when our troops or private contractors are fired on by hajis in a public market, or among a group of school children? We have tons of video of them setting up and firing crew served weapons from hospitals, mosques, schools, etc. Why does no one here mention that? Don't worry the news doesn't either. Do innocents get killed in war - yeah it's war. It's not debating. But the truth is that the US, be it military or private contractors goes to far greater lengths to assure the saftey of the Iraqi public than our adversary...who in fact use the innocent to gain tactical advantage. In fact we do so at he detriment of our own safety in the field. why no insightful comments about that here?
Chris Kapilla wrote on September 17, 2007 7:29 PM:John,
perhaps you don't do irony?
Adan wrote on September 17, 2007 7:53 PM:how come there is no outrage when our troops or private contractors are fired on by hajis in a public market, or among a group of school children?
Maybe because our guys chose to be there, chose to start the war, and the Iraqis did not?
palm pilot wrote on September 17, 2007 9:40 PM:I didn't "choose" to be there. I have an oath to uphold and I go where I'm sent. I there so you don't have to be. You should thank me.
John McCutchen wrote on September 17, 2007 10:05 PM:May the Farce be wtih you
Uncle Kudzu wrote on September 17, 2007 11:04 PM:these mercenaries are highly-trained and are paid much, much more than the citizen soldiers, right? why don't we put their badasses at the front? let them do the heavy lifting that the tax-payers are shelling out for and let the troops out of heavy rotation?
chupacabra wrote on September 17, 2007 11:14 PM:Michael Lafferty:
Hear, hear. Let's send "Little Bird Driver" a copy of Bob Mason's CHICKENHAWK, so that he can talk the talk much better.
Moondancer: "Didn't bush send Blackwater into New Orleans after Katrina?"
Indeed he did. Among other things, they provided us with Security at the many port operations we had going. Two of them lived in the room next to me.
Not the dumbest clowns I've ever seen, but they need to come up the ladder a bit to qualify for Thugdom. Mediocre poker players...
Jim Mooney wrote on September 17, 2007 11:28 PM:I am all for a draft. If we think this war is important to quell terrorism we should be willing to sacrifice. If we think it was based on lies and that Iraq had no WMDs or Al Quaida ties, then maybe we won't like the sacrifice.
But without a draft and without sacrifice we allow our government to do anything it wants, stupid or not. We shouldn't have Any war, declared or undeclared, without a draft. That would make politicians think more seriously. Throwing two trillion dollars down a rathole while America is going broke doesn't seem to faze them.
questioneverything wrote on September 17, 2007 11:30 PM:Latest figures I've read are that there are as many US contractors in Iraq as US military--@160,000. And no oversight. And they make up to 10 times what our military members make. They are only accountable to the company. It's about high time that the senate addressed this. Where do you think over half of the "emergency appropriations" are going every month? Is everybody stupid and blind in Washington? Of course.
Steve wrote on September 18, 2007 12:29 AM:Why are we paying private-sector soldiers 10x more than we pay our volunteer soldiers? I thought we had the best army in the world.
Answer: It's part of the bogus Rumsfeld/Cheney privatization plan. It costs more, and delivers inferior results. But GOP cronies have made fortunes.
For example, Haliburton, which paid Cheney $35 million weeks before he took office ("severance pay" or pre-emptive bribe?), has made many billions of dollars -- and last year, they moved their HQ to Dubai. They're not even an American company anymore. The depths of corruption and depravity in this administration knows no lower limit.
Ferruge wrote on September 18, 2007 1:45 AM:how come there is no outrage when our ... private contractors are fired on
I believe you answered your own question:
Do innocents get killed in war - yeah it's war
Actually, it's an Occupation, and a horribly run one at that, and mercs aren't really innocent, but I digress.
In any case, you clearly don't think people should give a shit about the killing of innocents, so why do you think we should care about the killing of heavily armed mercenaries? Are you one of them? You seem awfully ungrateful considering that I'm unwillingly paying your salary.
Mary Waynick wrote on September 18, 2007 2:45 AM:My nephew works for Blackwater and is a very good man! Blackwater is filling jobs your children do not have to fill. If it wasn't for them (Blackwater), what do you think would happen next? The draft!
Patrick wrote on September 18, 2007 3:07 AM:What do you expect a person to do if they are fired upon?
Think people! They are not over there shooting up good people!
Do not believe every thing you hear!
Mary,
perhaps you see different news in America then we see in Europe. They DO SHOOT up good people.. and lots of them. And are above the law. Again a very ethnocentric point of view like so many: WE get the draft if WE do not hire mercs to shoot up others... ever considered the fact "the others" might object ? Is THAT the reputation of America YOU THINK, that will make America secure: private armies shooting around civilians ? If the whole world is convinced that that is the case, do you think that helps American interests ? (Purely from an egoistic perspective... can you take on world opinion.. ? Do you think that is smart ? )
in the shit wrote on September 18, 2007 5:42 AM:Ferruge,
You seem ungrateful that I'm willingly keeping your ass safe and sound in front of your computer.
in the shit wrote on September 18, 2007 7:25 AM:Patrick,
Don't worry about the draft... My humble oppinion is that the US will never return to that. It was screwed up in Vietnam and I don't think, with all the granted waivers for whinning liberal rich kids, that it could ever be fair in the future. Soldiers don't want to be in a foxhole, or any other military location, with dirtbags, who don't want to serve their country. We want to be there with other Volunteers. People willing to stand up, and not just talk about what to do.
I don't understand what is with the negative attitude toward the military or mercenaries. For money or personal pride, we do something. At least we are doing something. Our advesaries from Alqaeda are doing something motivated by hate and manipulation... they are intent on defeating the USA, UK, and even the European Union. Just because the US and UK (a few others also) are the ones on the front doesn't mean that no one else is there enemy. Don't think for a moment that Iraq is a non-issue in regards to the GWOT. It is the primary front.
I'm saddened to hear that some civilians lost their lives due to the actions of this organization. However, the rest of the world has a list of innocents lost due to terrorism and Islamic extremism. However, these MERCS didn't go out trying to kill innocents like the advesary, they were protecting both Coalition and Iraqi assests and the rest are casualties of war. Shit happens and we make the best of the situation.
Those of you who are complaining the loudest are those who are doing the least.
VETERAN wrote on September 18, 2007 8:42 AM:I work in Iraq. Been here since 2003 with the Army and differt companys. I think that some OK,most have no cluce what goes on here. Look up the word mercenary. By deffintion,this Company IS NOT MERCENARIES OR KILLERS. The job is Procetion that is what I do. This is for both GOVERMENTS. All I ask is, before you make a comment GET BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY AND BE INFORMED.
Sean wrote on September 18, 2007 3:17 PM:Thank you for reading.
the best source of info on this topic is a book i read by Jeremy Scahill called Blackwater: Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army. It will give you a better understanding of what these men and women go through and then your prejudiced, misinformed logic will no longer be misinformed.
David, Roseburg OR wrote on September 18, 2007 7:05 PM:To Palm Pilot
Perhaps and because that is not the subject being talked about here, stay on subject.
“I didn't "choose" to be there. I have an oath to uphold and I go where I'm sent. I there so you don't have to be. You should thank me.”
Oh? So someone forced you to sign up in the first place? Sounds to me like you enjoy war.
To all those that are supposedly over there or been there, do you and your mates ever sit together and discuss a better way of dealing with the issues rather than the constant killing on either side? Surely it saddens you to have to kill another or watch a mate die beside you? I do care about you, no one on this earth should have to be in the position you are in and I truly hope you all make it home safely and those in Iraq find it to their home safely. I do appreciate what you do, I have no beef with you at all and would gladly share a beer with you and shake your hand.
It is the politics involved that bother me. I have to ask one more question here, do you resent the huge amount of money these private soldiers are being paid? Do you truly think it is fair?
Look around you, surely there is a better way of dealing with this. My thoughts have been along these lines listed below and if you disagree then please tell me why.
1. Rebuild the infrastructure we blew up on the first day of the invasion.
Give them dependable electricity, running water and sewage. It's amazing how much gentler people become when they can go to the bathroom or get a drink of water from the faucet instead of having to go outdoors for that purpose. Imagine being able to run your refrigerator every hour of every day, wow, fresh food.
2. Feed them. A happy belly is a happy and contented person and those that provide the food are treated with due respect.
3. Get them medical treatment. Get their hospitals up and running at capacity. Treat not just their body, but also their mind, they have been through a lot more horrors than any of us will ever see unless we are stationed there. Give them counseling to understand the issues that are controlling their country.
4. Educate them, get their schools up and running and teach them what has happened and why and what the future plans are. (oops, this one might not be feasible as we never have had a future plan for them.
5. build city, county and state commissions so the public is involved with their day to day life. It's truly amazing what people will do when they know their actions will be helping to change things for the better.
6. Get us out of there and let them stand on their own two feet.
Jon` wrote on September 19, 2007 3:23 AM:David in OR,
Very insightful! Great Plan! What do you think we are doing over there? We are doing all of those things.
Yes, we have a plan for the future. Yes, we are educating them and treating them.
Yes, we are helping them build a government and community.
Yes, we are rebuilding the infrastructure that we blew up on the first day of the war. (That is a tactic of any military planner during an invasion... you can question it, but that would be why you are not in charge of leading an Army into battle)
I do like what you said about those over here getting together and talking about better ways to deal with it.
Yes, we do! And then, we get up the next day and we try to go out and do it. What you fail to understand is the other working pieces here. Iran, and Syria, and Alqaeda. All are trying to stop the progress. We aren't going out daily and blasting people away. You've obviously never been here to know the situation.
You speak about the politicians... Yes, soldiers hate all politicians, because they're purpose is to get re-elected. To include your democratic politicians. They claim to come over here and see the situation and understand the situation, but they return to the U.S. with there agenda of reclaiming the white house in 2008. They do not care about the situation and the Soldiers, they care about themselves, there party and there extreme liberal financial support of MoveOn.org, and others. Things are improving and the Surge is working... but that doesn't fly with their ability to attack the president and the GOP.
I do have a problem with your attack on "Palm Pilot" that was unfair and cowardice. Soldiers don't enjoy War. We want to be home with our families and our activities. However, Soldiers care enough about their country to stand up and do something. Unlike yourself. I assess from what you have written, that you know nothing about the Arab culture. You know nothing of the Iraqi culture. You know nothing of the Islamic culture. You know nothing of the history of this region. The claim by politicians and attackers of our presence here in Iraq is that we've been here 4.5 years. My response is Yeah. And if we are to do this correctly, we need to be here for an additional 16.
Finally, and I apologize for the length of this diatribe, I want to address your question of high paid blackwater employees. These contractors provide an invaluable service. Many are retired or former military who are contributing their expertise to this situation. They may make more than the Soldiers, but they were once Soldiers. Who are you to attack their service?
Unless you've served, you have no place to comment about how this war is being ran. And don't claim that you are a tax payer. You probably pay no tax unless you make over $100,000 a year. And DOD is funded by corporate tax anyway not personal income tax.
Eric Riley wrote on September 19, 2007 9:55 AM:Jon Said:
"Unless you've served, you have no place to comment about how this war is being ran. And don't claim that you are a tax payer. You probably pay no tax unless you make over $100,000 a year. And DOD is funded by corporate tax anyway not personal income tax."
While you had a lot to cover, it's your final sentence that really sticks with me. I have to say that I *completely* disagree (and not because I haven't served - I joined the Army in '85 and left with an honorable discharge in '05 (not retired since I was not in the entire intervening period).
There are two comments that I often hear - one is yours, paraphrased as, "If you weren't there, shut up", and the other is, "Soldiers protect your right to free speech, so shut up".
It *is* our place - everyone's place - to comment on what is being done, especially when it is constantly claimed to be done in our name! I hear, "we're there so you don't have to be" and "we're there so they are in America", and at some point I just have to call BULLSHIT.
Soldiers are there because you are *ORDERED* to be there. To motivate you in following orders, you are given a story - and you believe it. You *must* believe it, because to not believe you you must question your own morality.
Every citizen has cause to question what is being done, how it is being done, to suggest alternatives, and to say, "NO! I do not want you to do this for me".
Further, Jon says, "...we are educating them and treating them. Yes, we are helping them build a government and community. Yes, we are rebuilding the infrastructure that we blew up on the first day of the war..."
I would say that certainly *some* of this is being done- *BUT* when I was at Ft. Bliss, I do not remember any briefings about how to build anything. I don't remember receiving any training about how to monitor an election, or how to run a school. No religious education about how to tell the difference between Sunni and Shiite.
Also- notice that most of the units sent are combat units- not military police or engineers.
Finally, the *mission* as it was presented to me was primarily one of force protection. Our number one priority was defending oil installations, the few surviving power plants and each other. So while all that (rebuilding infrastructure) might be going on, it is not a priority for US forces in Iraq, and I suspect that we are still destroying as much as we are rebuilding.
To all you soldiers reading this, I do respect what you are willing to do for me, but I ask you to stop and come home.
jvill wrote on September 19, 2007 10:03 AM:Little Bird Driver wrote on September 17, 2007 11:45 AM:
When will you bleeding-heart liberals recognize that war is not a debate or contest waged by gentlemen. If it weren't for the concessions already made to pacify you and quell your unrealistic notions regarding such conflict, we'd still be employing tactics like those used by Gen. Lemay when he chose to firebomb Tokyo.
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Good point. And we'd be getting regularly hit by terrorist attacks after alienating the entire world because of our genocidal war crimes.
Got beat up a lot as a kid, huh?
palm pilot wrote on September 19, 2007 2:45 PM:David OR,
You don't hear about this for reasons that are "off topic" but we are buidling, we are feeding and we are educating & training. are we doing enough? probably not. are we keeping up with what the insurgency is undoing, not even close. but we are trying. I know you guys won't like this but the reason the Halis, KBRs at Blackwaters are in Iraq is for the reconstruction....and yes to make a buck off it. well alot more than a buck, I agree that is wrong. They are training IPF and ING to stand on thier "own two feet" the problem is the insurgents see all this as a threat to their survival and do what they do to the people of Iraq in the attempt to stop us from doing more. Lately it seems the average Iraqi is catching on to that as the insurgents have nothing to offer to fill the void. But, that part never gets discussed, by you all or by the media. never. It's just, "another bomb went off at a school today, blame the US" not "another bomb went off at a school that the US just completed construction for the Iraqi people and was prompty destroyed by AQI." Same with water, electricity, etc. - of which I can tell you from first hand experience we spend more time guarding and fixing than we do oil pipelines. Get over their, see it for yourself and get your sh*t correct David. You owe it to the people on this board. oh PS, yes "war" is a freaking blast. I'll be back to it in December.