Comments (74)

Chris Merrill wrote on October 9, 2007 4:12 PM:

I'd rather they not be granted immunity at all (aren't retroactive laws are unconstitutional?)
But if its the only way to find out what the heck they have been doing, I'll bite the bullet

chabuka wrote on October 9, 2007 4:12 PM:

Fu*king little wienies...

Margaret wrote on October 9, 2007 4:18 PM:

A) Hoyer is the majority leader, not the "minority whip" like your caption says and B) Steny Hoyer is the best Democrat that the Republican caucus has, with the possible exception of Rahm Emanuel.

Kevin wrote on October 9, 2007 4:35 PM:

Since the admin is never gonna tell, why offer them this carrot???!!! When will the Dems quit acting like their dealing with reasonable people who can be negotiated with? All it gets them is spit in the face, the perpetual finger and derisive laughter. Of course, now you can add to that list - growing anger and disillusionment from their voters.

Margart - spot on on your comments

P J Evans wrote on October 9, 2007 4:56 PM:

Why does Hoyer hate the Constitution?

The phone companies that agreed to the illegal wiretaps should not be protected. Neither should those officials who asked for them.

Punchy wrote on October 9, 2007 5:04 PM:

You can pass retroactive laws?

So, it's not really a crime if I can get Congress to pass a law years later not making it a crime when I did it, even though it was a crime when I did it?

Holy crap.

anon wrote on October 9, 2007 5:06 PM:

...first detail what those companies did...

I just don't get it. Does this congress have the common sense of, oh, my six year old? I don't think so.

Why would you grant immunity for something that could be anything? How can you possibly justify a vote for immunity in those circumstances? It's not imcomplete information--we don't know the first thing about what went down. It's a black hole and could be anything. The immunity could cover, say, continuous surveillance of Dems over the last six years or whatever. In fact, because the adminstration hasn't leaked any details, rational people might assume that it's because there's something seriously amiss.

Would this be a reverse Pascal wager? Betting everything on a bet that's likely to turn out bad?

judyinnm wrote on October 9, 2007 5:21 PM:

What say we lobby congress to pass a law that any public official who violates his or her oath to protect and preserve the Constitution of the United States be thrown out of office, and be forbidden to hold any other office of trust?

And, let's have that law made retroacive to, oh say, September 17, 1787.

'Twould be interesting to see how much support such a proposal would receive from congress, the public, and the mainstream media. Dana Perino would go into coniptions, and Cheney would shoot someone in the face. Bush would declare us enemy combatants.

Joe Buck wrote on October 9, 2007 5:29 PM:

Only retroactive punishment is unconstitutional. That is, you can't prosecute someone for breaking a law that wasn't on the books when they did the deed.

But retroactive amnesty is allowed (but in this case, very wrong).

Oh, and judyinnm, we already have such the law you're asking for (as I suspect you know): public officials who violate their oaths can be thrown out, and barred from further office. The court that decides such things is Congress, and the process is called impeachment.

jim wrote on October 9, 2007 5:40 PM:

the only reason they act like this is because there is no other party to appeal to liberal minded people

dexxjones wrote on October 9, 2007 5:59 PM:

the only hope we have is to vote the "steney hoyers" right the fuck out of office.

it is becoming increasingly apparrent that the current batch of democrats are going to let them allll get away with it.

there must be a STIFF price to pay for such betrayal.

they assume we will vote democratic no matter what they do and they are DEAD WRONG about this.

judyinnm wrote on October 9, 2007 6:02 PM:

Joe Buck - Oh, it's been done? Are you talking about that document those old guys signed 220 years ago has stuff like that in it??? WOW!!!

But I think you just hit on the big flaw - Congress are the ones who need to be held accountable, for (even considering) the atrocities they have committed over the past seven years, in trashing the concept embodied in that that fine, classic document. Maybe there's some way WE THE PEOPLE may override their override of it...

heh wrote on October 9, 2007 6:02 PM:

Steny Hoyer, yes well.......
he comes across as a DINO.

VictorLaszlo wrote on October 9, 2007 6:06 PM:

A top Democratic leader opened the door Tuesday to granting U.S. telecommunications companies retroactive legal immunity for helping the government conduct electronic surveillance without court orders, but said the Bush administration must first detail what those companies did.

"(H)elping"?!? Shouldn't that be "colluding with"?

randomness wrote on October 9, 2007 6:07 PM:

Besides suing the telecoms, can we sue Steny Hoyer?

sy wrote on October 9, 2007 6:08 PM:

Unacceptable.

Anonymous wrote on October 9, 2007 6:09 PM:

No, Hoyer, immunity is not on the table.

Bush Dog careers are on the table.

Craig wrote on October 9, 2007 6:11 PM:

I have two comments. One Anon is so correct. I have represented people getting immunity in Murder cases and the Prosecution would never give immunity without knowing what my client had to offer. Why give up something for possibly nothing when my client had been involved.

The second comment would be comical if it were not true. I sent a message to my Senator Lieberman regarding this issue of immunity for anyone involved relative to illegal wiretapping (unfortunately moved to CT just this past summer so did not get to vote against him). His form email response was atrocious. I will put it in a second note because it is somewhat long.

It basically tells the story of the shit that the Constitution is up against.

Anonymous wrote on October 9, 2007 6:11 PM:

Hoyer isn't "giving up" anything. He's a telco tool.

bholl wrote on October 9, 2007 6:17 PM:

Hoyer should be number one on the list of entrenched dems to go home.

We will have no change until we clean our own house.

Come on Maryland, elect a new dem.

Frustrated wrote on October 9, 2007 6:17 PM:

So how much could a telecom company sue for if it turned out that the advice they got from the Justice Dept. was wrong? Treble damages? Could the individuals be liable? Is Gonzo shaking in his boots thinking of being bankrupt or does he have his stash hidden in Swiss accounts and land in South America?

Missing the code words.

Al75 wrote on October 9, 2007 6:18 PM:

Our republic is built on law. "Retroactive immunity" is an obscenity.

Al75 wrote on October 9, 2007 6:18 PM:

Our republic is built on law. "Retroactive immunity" is an obscenity.

EH wrote on October 9, 2007 6:19 PM:

This is the same as the US opting out of the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague all those years ago. "Hey, prosecute all the bad people, unless they're us." The mere request for retroactive immunity for the telcos is an admission of lawlessness by the Bush Administration. Not to put too fine a point on it or ratchet up the shrillmeter, but this is a perfect illustration of "do as I say, not as I do" double standards as I've seen in the past few decades. Maybe I'm just older and more attentive to these things.

Al75 wrote on October 9, 2007 6:19 PM:

Our republic is built on law. "Retroactive immunity" is an obscenity.

Anonymous wrote on October 9, 2007 6:30 PM:

The other day I got a request for campaign donations from the DCCC. I sent the request back in the stamped envelope they had sent, telling them I had already donated money to MoveOn.org, and if they wanted money, they should ask them.

If all Liberals did this -- funnel all campaign contributions through the various progressive lobbying groups, such as MoveOn, the Democrats will get the message. In any event, that is the only way to fund progressives who will put these losing sad-sacks out to pasture.

joejoejoe wrote on October 9, 2007 6:35 PM:

Steny Hoyer is inspirational. He's inspiring me to become an independent voter instead of a Democrat.

Rick wrote on October 9, 2007 6:38 PM:

If they give immunity to Corp world then it is time to release 80-90 per cent of Americans out of prison.

EH wrote on October 9, 2007 6:40 PM:

I hear ya anonymous. I recently gave my first ever political contribution to MoveOn and my philosophy is that my money will go to those who take chances and don't play it safe in the interests of their goals. My money goes to people who are actually doing something, once they do something: a reward.

The Democratic Party banks on people giving money to the party they *hope* represent them. That the Dems (and Republicans I'm sure) take that money with a "hah, fooled ya!" bait and switch (or bait and hide) keeps me looking for a third party, but until then I'll give money to people challenging the issues after they challenge them. The political establishment has to regain their credibility with me and the only way they can do that is to stick their necks out and be tough *before* they get my money.

"Deeds not words."

Jano wrote on October 9, 2007 6:45 PM:

Elimates of the constitution should not be negotiable. It's wrong and leaders who advance the proposition are wrong.
I'm ashamed of Democrats who take an oath
to protect and defend and then fail to do so.

tbhull wrote on October 9, 2007 6:53 PM:

When will this republican leave office?

mickey g` wrote on October 9, 2007 6:58 PM:

I also sent back that DCCC questionaire with my own personal advice : Not another penny from me until I see some goddam backbone dealing with the repukes. I pissed away $250 on Kerry's non-campaign. My new "non-investment" immediately paid dividends, as the MoveOn-Petraeus unfolded two days later.......

Anonymous wrote on October 9, 2007 7:09 PM:

Steny Hoyer is a quisling douchebag.

He should be removed from his leadership post.

Tross wrote on October 9, 2007 7:11 PM:

Hoyer is offering a false choice.

Congress has the power to insist that the Administration disclose what it has been doing with FISA. He's just too afraid to use it.

If the President won't sign the FISA amendment, then he can just use the original FISA law.

These feckless imbeciles who call themselves "leaders" are pathetic. Only these simpletons would even consider retroactive immunity for breaking the law.

electricphoto wrote on October 9, 2007 7:17 PM:

The surveillance has been used to control Congress

The surveillance was against members of Congress and members of the media. They have most likely been privately informed of the files that Cheeny has on each of them - an age old technique used since the days of J Edgar Hoover.

Watch key Democrats like Leahy and Pelosi, and Republicans like Spector talk tough and NEVER EVER pull the trigger on the law.

We all observe the Democrats and think them weak. They are not. The key Democrats are being blackmailed, along with Republicans, with files kept on members ready to go to Fox at a moments notice.

How many times does Cheeny go to congress and they ALL play ball.... that's not loyalty - it's fear.

That's what the spying program has garnered... damaging info on people from a party that has the process perfected and shows its power to use it every hour of every day.

Why did Kerry, who knew about the vote fixing shut up and never question the election?.

Why does Lehay let the subpoenas go unenforced? Why does Pelosi decide that no impeachment will happen - are they weak?

No - it is self preservation under threat of blackmail. Standard practice in the halls of politics.

Democrats who have evrything to gain by enforcing the laws against Republicans back off every time. Is it self preservation and fear, or weakness.

Evan wrote on October 9, 2007 7:19 PM:

This deal may be OK if 1) No amnesty for the entire chain of beaurocrats and elected officials that requested the illegal act, and 2) ONLY those crimes the Telcos lay out in detail and where they help prosecute the beaurocrats and elected officials get amnesty.

If the amnesty is conditional on full disclosure before a date certain, we may actually get disclosure, and if not, then we are still able to prosecute.

Johnny2Bad wrote on October 9, 2007 7:19 PM:

How do you spell immunity for crimes against the people of the United State?

P-O-L-I-C-E S-T-A-T-E.

Patrick Meighan wrote on October 9, 2007 7:25 PM:

I called DiFi's office (202.224.3841) on this same issue this morning. It was my second call to 'em on this subject (I'd previously called them on Thursday). It went thusly:

Got phone-answerer (a guy, this time) and asked if the Senator was in favor of granting retroactive immunity to telecoms who violated federal law by spying on Americans without a warrant. Was told, of course, that the Senator simply had not made an announcement on this issue, and that he'd be happy to relay my thoughts to the Senator.

I noted that the House Judiciary Committee, clearly, had, itself, made an announcement on this very issue, by virtue of the fact that it has now drafted a bill that does *not* contain retroactive immunity. Was told that the bill the Senator will vote for will certainly be one that conforms to the House bill.

I expressed my surprise at the above statement, given the fact that the WaPo reports that House Democrats lean against granting retroactive immunity (not to mention the House's recent draft bill which fails to grant retroactive immunity), while Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee (of which the Senator is a member) favor granting some sort of retroactive immunity... again, per the WaPo. Was told, by phone answerer, that he had misspoken in his previous answer. That what he meant to say is that there will likely be a conference committee, down the line, marrying these two bills, and that that bill is gonna be the one the Senator ends up supporting.

I said that I understood these bills will be reconciled in conference committee, and that my fear is that, at that point, it will be too late to effectively influence my Senator, particularly if she keeps her position secret until that time. I continued by confessing my fear that that may, in fact, be the Senator's strategy: to keep her position secret as long as possible (in contrast to my representative and my other Senator, who've already declared their stance on this issue), until such time as it's too late for constituents such as myself to respond effectively. Was responded to with silence.

I asked if the Senator, or any of her staffers, could confirm or deny the WaPo report that Democrats in the Senate Judiciary Committee favor some form of retroactive immunity. Was told that no one could confirm or deny that.

I asked for confirmation that the Senator's staffer, Dan Safire (sp?), is the staffer most responsible for coordinating the Senator's action on this specific issue. The phone-answerer confirmed. I noted that that I'd left a message for Mr. Safire (sp?) last week, and had not heard back. I asked to leave another message. Was transferred to said staffer's voice mail.

Left message on voicemail of Dan Safire (sp?), asking him to please explain to me why my Senator was unwilling to do what my Congressperson and my other Senator were already willing to do: declare an opposition to the granting of retroactive immunity to telecoms who violated federal law by eavesdropping without a warrant.

Am now waiting, breath held, for a return call.

Patrick Meighan
Culver City, CA

Winston Smith wrote on October 9, 2007 7:29 PM:

It's amazing how out of touch these Democrats are. I sure hope there are some decent primary contests on the Dem side in 2008.

Mary wrote on October 9, 2007 7:46 PM:

... providing the immunity will likely be the price of getting President Bush to sign into law new legislation extending the government's surveillance authority

Ok, let me get this straight.
Hoyer is saying that in order to EXTEND the President's surveillance power, Congress will have to "pay the price" of also granting criminal immunity to criminals who commited crimes for the President. In order to give him more power, they "have" to do that?

God in heaven.

Bob Cawley wrote on October 9, 2007 7:46 PM:

Is there any level on which this is not stupid? Sorry, there is one: campaign contributions from the telecom companies. But our elected representatives would never consider trading our constituional rights for campaign contributions, would they?

OCPatriot wrote on October 9, 2007 8:03 PM:

I sent a FAX (have given up on e-mail which they won't accept if you're not a constituent) to Steny, Leahy, Webb, Pelosi, et al telling them I was against the "bargain" and including this AP story and a few of the more trenchant comments, like "spit in the face". I despise them all now and will vote for alternatives as they come up.

Habanero wrote on October 9, 2007 8:08 PM:

If Steney thinks BushCo is going to give up the secrets of the NSA he is more mentally deficient than George Bush. The NSA sources and methods must be protected, but when they misuse them, they should suffer the penalty for treason.

BT wrote on October 9, 2007 8:13 PM:

"Steny Hoyer is a quisling douchebag."

This could be the best characterization I've heard in years.

It makes me think that this crowd got into politics because they're wealthy losers who couldn't do anything else. They are installed there like Junior to help grease the skids for some corporate assholes. How many telco jobs are there in Md. Anyway?

Nell wrote on October 9, 2007 8:14 PM:

Absolutely unacceptable deal.

Far better to let the FISA cave-in expire with nothing to replace it than to pass a law this bad -- especially since the Bush-Cheney regime is going to defy the part about revealing past activities no matter what happens.

IMPEACH THEM!

And use the process to compel testimony on the spying that's gone on.

BT wrote on October 9, 2007 8:31 PM:

I would check out who in Maryland Dem circles has some dealings with the SEC.

There's some sort of trading going on, some threat to S.H. or his Party. Or maybe he simply doesn't want to become the issue. It seems like it isn't so much as support for the Dems as opposition to Bush in MD, and Steny wants to stay above the fray, keep his powder dry, not screw it up. God forbid that they could screw it up.

wtf wrote on October 9, 2007 8:40 PM:

"Hoyer, D-Md., said providing the immunity will likely be the price of getting President Bush to sign into law new legislation extending the government's surveillance authority."

Great!! Let it sunset then!! I can't believe this guy. He has it completely backwards.

Gandolf wrote on October 9, 2007 9:02 PM:

IMPEACH!

And sue the Telecoms. They are should be sued until they are worthless - replace them with internet VOIP! I'm tired of being ripped off!

MichaelAOlson wrote on October 9, 2007 9:31 PM:

This "seeking immunity" is crime family thinking. The Bush Administration and their corporate bosses are running a "protection racket" on the people of the United States. "Keep giving us all your money and we will keep you safe."

The military/industrial/media/congressional complex is the biggest scam the world has ever known and the American people are suckers for supporting it.

Our government is severely broken; it is disfunctional.

db wrote on October 9, 2007 10:18 PM:

But you can't smoke pot even if your doctor prescribes it for you, your state legalized it and you're dying and nothing else will help you eat and let you sleep.

We are ruled by assholes.

phil james wrote on October 9, 2007 11:01 PM:

A while back I couldn't sleep at night knowing the Republicans were in control of Congress and rubber-stamping everything Dubya demanded. Then we had the watershed election of 2006 when even Dubya admitted his party had taken an ass-whupping. Now I can't sleep at night knowing the Democrats are in control of Congress and rubber-stamping everthing Dubya demands. But tell me this please. We are all safer now. Aren't we?

Melanie wrote on October 9, 2007 11:09 PM:

Steny -

No! Don't do it!!!

Melanie wrote on October 9, 2007 11:09 PM:

Steny -

No! Don't do it!!!

Chuck wrote on October 9, 2007 11:45 PM:

F'ing COWARDS. Find your guts and fight the good fight. Enough already.

X wrote on October 9, 2007 11:59 PM:

Steny Hoyer is a weakling, a sellout piece of sh!t, and doesn't deserve to be in office. He swore to protect the Constitution, now he pisses all over it.

dorothy morris wrote on October 10, 2007 12:03 AM:

Every time the Democrats give in to Bush, it drives another inpregnable impediment to one red cent from our bank account

Where do they keep their sense of honor to those who voted for them in the mid-term election? As long as they vote like Repubs they don't deserve any praise.

I have no idea what URL means. Univeral Retarded Link?

Anonymous wrote on October 10, 2007 12:04 AM:

Every time the Democrats give in to Bush, it drives another inpregnable impediment to one red cent from our bank account

della Rovere wrote on October 10, 2007 12:21 AM:

That Hoyer is one tough cookie. No wonder the Dems are driving these hard negotiations so well. Under Hoyer they ain't no do-nothing party. Hot damn,.

anonymouse wrote on October 10, 2007 12:22 AM:

Counting the democrats in office, we now have... about 400 republican congressmen...

And we democrats voted in about half of them....

When are we going to get it through our thick heads that almost ALL of these mobsters are... well... MOBSTERS!

Vote the ALL out while we still have voting priveleges...

CruzBustamove wrote on October 10, 2007 12:39 AM:

Those who are interested in granting immunity to the telecoms are probably already getting, or expect to get campaign contributions from the telecoms. After all, money speaks to both sides of the aisle.
Cowardly whores, one and all.

Sailmaker wrote on October 10, 2007 12:50 AM:

Each and every singular FISA violation is worth $5000. We will never collect without massive shareholder problems: every pension fund in the US has some telcom stock. So negotiate: you give us the info we want, we will reduce the fines to $4K. You know those 5 million missing emails, some of which went through telcom 'pipes'? Give us those and we will reduce it to $3k.
You know those datamining structures that you have not given us? $2K. Agree to judicial oversite on datamining? More reductions. And so on. $2K remaining are still a lot of barganing chips. Maybe we want to 'keep the pipes open'? Reduce fines to $1.9K. Maybe we want text messaging to be common carrier (no more blocking NARAL texts to subscribers). Reduce it to $1.8K and so on. We have leverage here.

parrot wrote on October 10, 2007 2:26 AM:

So, let me get this straight again? In order to extend the government's survailence capabilities, we are supposed to give immunity to those who knowingly violated federal laws in the past? With deals like that, who needs a Constitution?!

Yes, it just goes to show that whatever it is that has infected the minds of the GOP has gotten into the drinking water in the Democratic Causus. The Democrats seem to have forgotten that they got into "power" (and I use that term very lightly in their case) based on the distrust of the President's policies...and so, to show their fortitude they're...caving in and doing what the President wants! Way to go Dems! That's showin' them! You are so very, very cool, I'm sure many more folks will vote for you in the next election...I mean, after all, we all feel so much better this time around, we might as well just give you the benefit of the doubt? No...we might as well either not vote, vote Republican, or, even better, and I daresay some major candidate does this in the next election...run as an independent or form a third party.

Oh, and BTW Dems, let me just predict that Dem problems with the Green party in the past few elections is going to look like a picnic in the one coming up. I'm going to guess that even progressive candidates are going to be losing votes to Greens in the next election. I mean, why not? What have voters got to lose? Either a GOP war criminal gets elected...or a Dem who is too afraid of power to save the Republic gets elected.

Again, the problem here is that the two national level parties are run by incompetents and boobs, not by anyone with any sense of how to right the Republic...except to just roll over and let the legal system just plunge into the abyss.

(Can you imagine the shock on the Dem leadership's face when Germany declares the United States a rogue nation? It could happen...yet everyone around here is just sitting on their thumbs and fiddling while our Republic goes down the tubes.)

AKHarpboy wrote on October 10, 2007 2:43 AM:

Stoyer obviously doesn't want to hear from anyone. You can't send him an email: there is no way to send him email from the Majority Leader's web site, and his district site will not allow anyone to send email who doesn't have a zip code in his district.

What an asshole --- first he joins Bu$hco in pissing on the Constitution, and then he ignores people who want to complain about it.

It's seriously time to get rid of the so-called Party Leadersheep.

PJ White wrote on October 10, 2007 3:20 AM:

NO IMMUNITY! Are they out of their fucking minds????

SUE COHEN wrote on October 10, 2007 6:22 AM:

Steny Hoyer and his ilk continue to astonish me--Do they not realize who elected them in 2006?

WE WANT FULL ACCOUNTABILITY!! No immunity for anyone--

Democrats control the agenda--no war funding bills, no immunity for no telecoms, no Spakovsky's for the FEC...WHY IS THIS SO DAMN HARD FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND?

We need AL GORE!

RichardM wrote on October 10, 2007 7:55 AM:

This action by Hoyer does not surprise me. Remember the big tussel between Hoyer and Murtha for Armed Services Chairmanship? Hoyer won, Pelosi all of a sudden went soft, Murtha silent. Yes it will be a long painful process but it is time the Democrats be faced with a reality of a third party as well. Not the Green Party but say the MoveOn Party?

Dennis wrote on October 10, 2007 8:37 AM:

The Democrats have become nothing but wimps. All they have done is threaten, compromise and collapse. They either have no idea how the American people feel about their spinelessness, or else they don't care.

Pelosi is a joke. Hillary is a joke. The Democratic party is one step away from being a joke.

You don't have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

Betty wrote on October 10, 2007 9:11 AM:

Well the solution is simple isn't it - now that we know we can make retroactive laws.

Jane wrote on October 10, 2007 9:50 AM:

Subpoena the information about what the telecoms have done. Act on the matter when the answers are received .....

Easy way to see that they are retroactively granted immunity only after hell freezes over and it remains the reThugs' problem.

Mary wrote on October 10, 2007 10:14 AM:

There's some sort of trading going on, some threat to S.H. or his Party

They don't really want the real story out, bc half the "gang of 8" were Democrats and none said or did anything. And if you notice how careful Pelosi and Harman and Rockefeller have been - - they tend to do things like deny that they were given copies of the Bradbury torture memos, but avoid questions on whether they were advised of the torture POLICIES or even confess to being briefed on "operational" aspects of torture, etc.

It is the same kind of situation with the rest - - if too much comes out, the threat to Hoyer and his party will be that the Dems who look "kinda complicit" right now will be shown to have leadership that was FULLY complicit.

No wonder that Pelosi has impeachment off the table.

Or that the Sup Ct is refusing to take cases like el-Masri's that would require the judicial branch to have to undertake what the Constitution says Congress should do - try a sitting President for high crimes.

What I wouldn't give to see Feingold, Leahy, etc. actually split off and form a third party so that candidates could be fielded - let them promise to keep caucusing with Dems (like Lieberman, except the opposite of) but make it that clear - that there would be A party out there with already sitting representatives and which stands for the Constitution and inherent decency.

Carolyn, Simi Valley, CA wrote on October 10, 2007 10:25 AM:

I sent steny a fax. Suggested he reach way down in his soul and see if he could get hold of whatever integrity he had left, pull it out, shine it up, and as the old hymn says, "let it lift you out of the mire and set you free."
If you would like to send your own thoughts his fax is 1(202)225-4300.
By the way, I cc'd to make sure somebody besides him knew what I sent.

Anonymous wrote on October 11, 2007 12:01 AM:

Having trouble with this "Presidential-Congressional" immunity for telecoms.

1. Separation of Powers/Illegal Assertion of Non-Delegated Powers

"Immunity" appears, from this corner in this case, to be an exercise of JUDICIAL power by the President and Congress. Can't do that.

2. Pre-Judging the Case

If the President and Congress want "immunity", then that can only come after a PARDON. The cases need to go to trial first to establish facts; determine what we're immunizing.

3. Governing Law At Time Of Alleged Crime

The law of the land -- FISA -- as it existed WHEN the violations, did NOT include any immunity. The court can only apply the law as it existed; not as the Congress and Presidet wish it existed.

Wynefreed wrote on October 11, 2007 10:17 AM:

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