Comments (93)

Scud wrote on October 16, 2007 5:58 PM:

And Specter and Leahy have backed up their blustery talk with action how many times?

/Um.... Zero? Zero times?

Captain USA wrote on October 16, 2007 6:11 PM:

Oh well, if Senator Specter is on the case, nothing to worry about!

He's a paragon of stern oversight and an adamant bulwark against executive overreach!

When has Senator Specter ever made tough noises like this and then caved like a rain-soaked refrigerator box?

A Guardian of Freedom, I call him!

DallasNE wrote on October 16, 2007 6:14 PM:

We have heard this big talk before. Spector has a long history of making bold statements before caving. Can we really expect things to be different this time? I'm not holding my breath.

Today we learned that Verizon was asked to provide secondary source affiliated with 370 unsupervised taps. While Verizon said they did not capture such data they did not say they did not provide that data anyway. It would be a simple process to make a second pass of the data and pull that secondary data. The odds are fairly high that they revised their database to be able to query on secondary data. It is a technically simple thing to do With 40 years of IT experience I think I know of which I speak.

Tom In Maine wrote on October 16, 2007 6:16 PM:

Welcome to the "Straight Talk Express", Specter and Leahy style.

ken melvin wrote on October 16, 2007 6:17 PM:

Bait and switch. It's always bait and switch with Arlen.

improper wrote on October 16, 2007 6:19 PM:

When will these feckless fuck die?

kis wrote on October 16, 2007 6:22 PM:

And Lucy won't pull the football away THIS time, Charlie Brown.

Fractal wrote on October 16, 2007 6:31 PM:

Very encouraged to see experts like DallasNE are on our side. These Senators are making me sick. This month is shaping up as a disaster on two major issues where the govt. is actively working against the people, FISA and SCHIP, and the govt. is going to win, goddam it. It appears enough Dems in both houses will connive with the GOP that the GOP will gloat all the way thru the '08 election cycle that there's no difference between the parties. Nancy Pelosi didn't offer much hope for concrete action on FISA or getting out of Iraq, in Arianna Huffington's interview. See link.

jalbert wrote on October 16, 2007 6:32 PM:

should last until they realize that it was their phones listened in on.

litigatormom wrote on October 16, 2007 6:34 PM:

Don't bet the kids' college money on Specter standing his ground. Just sayin'....

Johann wrote on October 16, 2007 6:39 PM:

Behind all this arguing about whether or not Congress should be allowed to hear what the Bush Administration has done is the assumption by the Administration that members of congress lack the clearances necessary obtain the information required for them to provide any oversight of administration actions.

jello5929 wrote on October 16, 2007 6:39 PM:

GOP is running the standard play. See MCA2006.

Democrats will all line up and condition their support on Specter's support. Then Specter caves and there is no time to oppose so they all cave.

maxbarkly wrote on October 16, 2007 6:47 PM:

For fuck's sake, you can't pass retroactive laws!

ARTICLE 1 SECTION 9
NO EX POST FACTO LAWS!!!

SVH wrote on October 16, 2007 6:52 PM:

Spectre will cave; he hasn't failed to disappointment me yet.

And I'm not going to even discuss our congressional Democratic 'Capitulation Crew'.

anon wrote on October 16, 2007 6:52 PM:

Oh, great, I feel a lot better now.

EH wrote on October 16, 2007 6:52 PM:

Can the President pardon a corporation?

Mark C wrote on October 16, 2007 6:53 PM:

Ok, I read what I WAS going to post and it was a bit over the top.

So just let me say this instead.

Sure Mr Specter, whatever you say...

starwheel wrote on October 16, 2007 6:54 PM:

Specter's bark will be nothing but a pathetic yelp by tomorrow.

How many times do we have to watch this movie?

conniptionfit wrote on October 16, 2007 6:56 PM:

Oh, look! It's the Charlie Brown and Lucy show again! How many times does Lucy have to promise to let Charlie kick that football before Pat figures out that Arlen is a lying weasel?

ralphbon wrote on October 16, 2007 7:01 PM:

I'd take issue with the TPM headline asserting that Specter is exhibiting spine. How many times have we been here before? Specter shows us what looks like a sturdy spine, we all ooh and ah, and then the spine proves to be 100%Styrofoam.

His game here is to say that he would never consider immunity without knowing what the telecoms did. So the Bush administration authorizes the telecoms to engage in a modified limited hang-out, telling the senators a few fun GWOT stories, Specter thanks them for the clarification and edification, and the Styrofoam crumbles.

Is there anything more pathetic than progressives pinning their last shreds of hope on Arlen Specter?

Clay wrote on October 16, 2007 7:04 PM:

My mail carrier asked several of us in the community to watch things, you know, back in the days of the TIPS program. So, doing my patriotic duty, I checked the mailbox of my neighbor, who was Arabic, to see what he was getting. The fact that we were in an election for our homeowners association and that the rumor he was getting Penthouse mags got around worries me. What if people think I spread the rumor?

So, I would like for Congress to give me retroactive immunity. Like the Telecoms, I was approached by a government worker and I was only doing my patriotic duty. And like Verizon, it shouldn't be my job to decide what is and is not legal (I'm thinking of applying that standard to my tax returns too).

I won the election, by the way.

ProDem wrote on October 16, 2007 7:05 PM:

No question about it!!...We've heard this BS before, not only from "ChickenMan" Specter, but also from Leahy!! In the end, Dems will cave to the Facists just as they have done in the past.....regardless if the country needs them NOW to stand up and fight......sad indeed....

nellieh wrote on October 16, 2007 7:18 PM:

Specter making a declaration is the same as "the checks in the mail" and the number one lie.

Simon Terrell wrote on October 16, 2007 7:21 PM:

Isn't Specter the one who authored the magic bullet theory for the Warren Commision? He has spent a lifetime in politics finding ways to put up smoke screens for others, why would he operate any differently now?

Mark Richards wrote on October 16, 2007 7:21 PM:

Earlier this morning, I learned that Verizon has been giving Club Fed open access to its customer records without a warrant.

If there were another carrier that I could work with I'd switch in an instant. Unfortunately they're a monopoly.

Ivan Seidenberg, Verizon's Chair, most certainly must have been aware of what they did. He owes his customers the trust they placed in him to keep our private transactions private until a legitimate court order is presented. His Verizon may be a large corporation, but he should not forget the individuals and families who are his customers.

Verizon attempted to provide examples of how their lawlessness helped catch a child molester, etc, but in the end what they did is both illegal and a total violation of the relationship with their customers. Crime-busting has not been hindered with basic search warrants and subpoenas.

Seidenberg, his board, and others who approved and enabled the illegal activity should face trial and Verizon should get its act together. There should be NO retroactive immunity. Further, government officials who asked Verizon and others to hand over records without a warrant should NOT be immunized by virtue of their positions. The government is equally culpable and should face equal and severe consequences. Those that enforce the laws must keep them or face the consequences.

If the Democratic congress doesn't get this message and follow through, then they are equally culpable and deserve the same scorn.

Sailmaker wrote on October 16, 2007 7:25 PM:

How about we call it 'mirage spine'? All full of hot air making something appear to be there, but in the moment of truth - - nothing. Arlen is called Specter quite appropriately.

So how do we get the Dems not to cave? No AG confirmation and no retro active immunity until we know what they did? I'd say that is only the beginning. Since the telecoms are in every pension fund portfolio, no way are the feds ever going to collect what the taxpayers are due on the $5K per each violation. So dole out immunity little by little in return for revealing everything. The warrentless wiretapping? We'll give you $1k off each admission. The datamining? $500 off each admission. The secret government network? We'll give you $100 off the admission of each secret switch . . . et cetera.

Mark C wrote on October 16, 2007 7:33 PM:

If there were another carrier that I could work with I'd switch in an instant. Unfortunately they're a monopoly.

I wonder how Verizon and ATT would react if 25% of their customers didn't pay their bills for 2-3 months.

Hmmm...

Atlas Scruggs wrote on October 16, 2007 7:39 PM:

Oops... There goes Arlen into the Airplane again.

Dave in ME wrote on October 16, 2007 7:58 PM:

Same old deal with snarlin' Arlen. Talk tough, jr. calls him to the white house for a chat with cheney and a shotgun and what do you know? He folds like wet cardboard.

emal wrote on October 16, 2007 8:01 PM:

Look at how Specter has made that statement and couched that bravado (no immunity) talk. It's all wrapped with an easy get out of jail free bailout card for Bushco and the lawbreaking companies.

He says he won't give immunity to them until he knows what they did and why it was necessary.

So enter Bushco and the Teleco's. They come in and sweetalk him...they whisper in Specter's ear telling him in closed session (never under oath) just what happened and why they did it. Then they give him a few documents here and there (never the whole shebang, never the whole story or complete picture but still enough for to win Arlen over) and presto chango the next thing you hear out of Specter's mouth just prior to voting on this out of committee will be something to the effect that he's now satifified that the reason the teleco's did this was sufficient in his eyes and it was necessary for national security based on new information he's now seen and heard in closed session. Yup...it's easy to sound tough when you make it contingent on pretending to actually give a damn but knowing full well your'e planning on accepting the latest Bushit line and incomplete a pieces of information from Buscho and the Teleco's. Yup he's troubled by what they did but felt that it was still was necessary for them to do so indeed he's gonna vote for immunity.

Dave Adams wrote on October 16, 2007 8:02 PM:

Now introducing Arlen Specter: Team Captain of the Washington Generals...

jen wrote on October 16, 2007 8:18 PM:

Would Senator Specter be surprised to learn NO ONE believes him? Does he really think he's fooling anyone but himself?

MEG wrote on October 16, 2007 8:19 PM:

Ok, this is what we did!

We went to work in the morning and went home in the afternoon. There, that’s everything; now give us our retroactive immunity.

Mr. Leahy, would you like to know what really happened between 8AM and 5PM?

I know many telecom employees that are eager to fill you in, but they want to see if you mean business. They will not risk their lives on an empty suit.

If the suit is empty, you will be replaced in the next election.

Bill from Dover wrote on October 16, 2007 8:19 PM:

And the blowfish once again inhales...

MediaFreeze wrote on October 16, 2007 8:48 PM:

Lucy is at it again.

chard wrote on October 16, 2007 8:53 PM:

Arlen Spector with spine.

To quote my departed mother, "Oh pee!"

chard wrote on October 16, 2007 8:54 PM:

Arlen Spector with spine.

To quote my departed mother, "Oh pee!"

moondancer wrote on October 16, 2007 8:56 PM:

I have watched this dirtbag do this for decades. As soon as the camera turned off he'll be licking the bottom of Bushs' boot.

Thank God I dont have to rely on him for anything more than entertainment.

Hey Arlen, there is only 5-6 people left in Pa that aren't on to you , nitwit.

sherifffruitfly wrote on October 16, 2007 8:56 PM:

Gawd you're a sucker - falling for Snarlin' Arlen.

Sheesh. May as well write the mea culpa now.

via wrote on October 16, 2007 9:00 PM:

Leahy will be the dominoe that falls after Specter.

global citizen wrote on October 16, 2007 9:04 PM:

I am willing to bet theat the telcos will get immunity without anyone having any more than the vaguest idea what they were granted immunity for. Whatever they say they did (in closed testimony) may be some of what they did, but only a small part and it will not, for course, be acknowledged that they are still doing it and much more.

Who would have imagined that the damn phone company would be granted blanket immunity from obeying the law or the Constitution. Every corporation in America will want in on that.

global citizen wrote on October 16, 2007 9:06 PM:

I am willing to bet theat the telcos will get immunity without anyone having any more than the vaguest idea what they were granted immunity for. Whatever they say they did (in closed testimony) may be some of what they did, but only a small part and it will not, for course, be acknowledged that they are still doing it and much more.

Who would have imagined that the damn phone company would be granted blanket immunity from obeying the law or the Constitution. Every corporation in America will want in on that.

TJ Fresco wrote on October 16, 2007 9:12 PM:

Hum, Yeah, let's go after the Telecom companies. Sure, why not? Just sue them and shut them down. Not to mention perhaps 1.5 million workers would be discharged. No problem, Leahy, you can blame the recession on Bush. Take the jobs away from them, wipe out pension plans, medical insurance, loss of homes, broken families, financial ruin. All because you, Leahy, want your pound of political flesh. Go ahead. I have just barely recovered from Bill Clinton's buddy, Bernie Ebbers bankruptcy. Just take it all away from me again. You must really hate the middle class, because that is who will pay for this, Leahy, the middile class, millions of them.

fubar wrote on October 16, 2007 9:14 PM:

What a couple of liars. Didn't they give Bush/Cheney retroactive immunity when the cowards in congress passed the Military Commissions Act? They will likely give Bush what he wants. This congress is worse than the last one. What happened to the Democrats that were elected? We need a revolution. We need to salvage what is left of our Constitution. Can't the military just arrest Bush and have him put in a looney bin? You know, Section 8.

tbhull wrote on October 16, 2007 9:18 PM:

global citizen wrote on October 16, 2007 9:04 PM:

The Constitution limits government power, not corporate power. Therefore, the Constitution places no restraints on what Verizon can do. In the abstract Verizon is free to abridge free speech. What Verizon must do is abide by the laws, something that exposes them to liability absent the immunity that is sure to be delivered in a silver platter by the pussies and criminals that compromise Congress.

As the lines between corporations and the government continue to blur on our march toward a fascist state, I wonder when someone will try to make the argument in court that the telcos and the government are indistinguishable, therefore, the restraints on government enumerated in the Constitution apply to telcos.

Quackers wrote on October 16, 2007 9:22 PM:

Specter is all bark. Unfortunately it's his MO to come on tough as nails and then behind the scenes he wilts like a sinner in front of the Pope. I have far more faith in Leahy (maybe) doing the right thing here.

feckless wrote on October 16, 2007 9:28 PM:

That headline is the best laugh I've had all week, Spector, a spine, HA! Maybe a spine cast in a jello mold.

When Lincoln spoke in horror of 'tyranny alloyed with democracy' he kept picturing Spector's sorry mug, even though the mealy mouthed bastard would not be born for another 80 years.

Anonymous wrote on October 16, 2007 9:29 PM:

maybe someone from arlen's office can slip another last-minute provision into legislation, and then arlen can play dumb. again.

dopey-o wrote on October 16, 2007 9:40 PM:

It's not about the telecoms; they have their good-faith defense, and tousands of NSLs to present in evidence. The immunity is intended to protect malefactors of great power inside the administration.
If there is no pursuing the telecoms, we can't follow the trail to the White House. In the same way that Bush I pardoned Weinberger to keep his own skin out of court, Junior has a whole bunch of friends to save. Probably starting with Gonzales.

Mike H. wrote on October 16, 2007 9:41 PM:

Is our Congress seriously considering granting retroactive immunity for past secret crimes? Who is making this shit up?! I feel like I'm living in an Arthur Koestler novel ... or a Mel Brooks movie.

Why aren't the Dems just laughing at these jokers? Just hold a big news conference where you read out loud the latest request from the White House and everyone BELLY LAUGHS. That's the amount of respect these things should be getting.

Cal wrote on October 16, 2007 9:41 PM:

Specter: No Retroactive Immunity for Telecoms</block

...unless they ask very nicely. They must say "please."

What a putz.

CalD wrote on October 16, 2007 9:44 PM:

9/11 ate my last post.

MEG wrote on October 16, 2007 9:45 PM:

Shut down the telcos?

Never happen, they are part of infrastructure and a necessity.

Sanctions have been used in the past and are more likely.

And a bigger dose of regulation and transparency would regain the public trust.

midwestblue wrote on October 16, 2007 9:52 PM:

Specter said:
"If there was a need for it at the time, and if the telephone companies were good citizens and if they supplied information which was important, then I’d be prepared to look at it."

Yep, as long as the government wanted important information, and the companies, being good citizens, supplied important information, it should be okay.

Disgusting--they're going stop the civil suits. We'll never know what went on. I'm frightened of the Legislative as well as the Executive branch.

california jim wrote on October 16, 2007 9:53 PM:

Spector. Yea right. Have not we heard this kind of spine before.

Fool me once, shame on me, Fool me twice... three times... four times...
five times. Spector is a classic woose.

Richard L. Adlof wrote on October 16, 2007 9:59 PM:

No immunity at all for telcomms and throw in a couple of paragraphs toughening the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

Put corporatism run amok and fascist plutocracy where it belongs . . . in the waste bin of history.

nofltwlt wrote on October 16, 2007 10:05 PM:

Sounds to me like Arlen is fishing for large amounts of behind the scenes money from the White House and/or the GOP.

CruzBustamove wrote on October 16, 2007 10:30 PM:

The telecoms will line a few pockets (Dems included) and all will be forgiven. Money talks and bullshit walks.

oddjob wrote on October 16, 2007 10:34 PM:

I'm surprised to read this post on TPM as if it's some source of comfort or something!

How many times has Specter publicly said something in such a carefully crafted way that when he later backs down & rolls over it's all become clear that all he ever does is bluster?

Please...........

parrot wrote on October 16, 2007 10:38 PM:

Hey, I've got a novel idea...let's prosecute folks for violating the law! You know, actually respect the Acts of Congress...rather than just roll over.

benjoya wrote on October 16, 2007 10:40 PM:

If there is no pursuing the telecoms, we can't follow the trail to the White House.

ding ding ding
We Have a Winner!

dotsright wrote on October 16, 2007 10:58 PM:

Wake up Senator Leahy. Specter is the Lucy Van Pelt of the Republican Party. How many times does he have to pull that football out from under you before you realize that you're being had?

jdw wrote on October 16, 2007 11:23 PM:

I'm stunned Paul posted this without pointing out what every posted instantly jumped on:

Specter 101 is to talk about be concerned, then to go along with whatever the Administration wants.

I mean... this is *known*.

Dennis wrote on October 16, 2007 11:35 PM:

We can bet that whatever it is that Spector claims he wants from the Telecom industry before they get immunity, he is willing to compromise and get it with the following conditions;

Behind closed doors, no vocal/pictoral recordings will be made, no notes will be taken, no oaths will be taken, only a chosen two/three from each party will be present, whatever is revealed will be kept among those who are present.

You don't have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

sparrow wrote on October 16, 2007 11:53 PM:

The guy's name is Specter. In the end, he'll cave after making a few pronouncements about defending the Rule of Law and standing up for civil liberties. And Leahy...well, his sentiments may be in the right place, but he just ain't no pit bull.

Kent Mueller wrote on October 16, 2007 11:53 PM:

Can't count on Specter.

The Democrats should try turning this deal on its pointy little head.

Civil immunity for the Telecoms?

Sure, as long the bill includes blanket immunity for honest patriots and whistleblowers in the intelligence agencies, the telecoms, the libraries, the banks, the ISP providers, the credit card and wire companies, and so on, include the ability to communicate what they were asked to do under National Security Letters, without the fear of Federal prosecution.

O-or how about a rescindment of all those Bush Signing Statements on the grounds that the President has no right, beyond the veto, to modify laws formally passed by Congress, as a condition.

At least we'd find out what happened and could pass legislation to prevent a future occurence. Maybe.

You're right, that is a laugh.

global yokel wrote on October 17, 2007 12:39 AM:

Wish I had a dollar for every time Specter has huffed and bluffed and then rolled over for the Bushniks. He and McCain have the franchise on being 'maverick' Republicans, when in fact they are nothing but garden variety bootlickers for the Right.

RobbyLove wrote on October 17, 2007 1:22 AM:

Hate to break it to you, but witnesses are given immunity all the damn time. Giving immunity is not the same as passing a retroactive law. You're just saying "We won't prosecute if you give us testimony we want". I mean gee whiz, does nobody watch Law and Order anymore?

Hopefully that won't happen in this case. If Leahy and Specter do stick to their guns, maybe Reid and Pelosi will learn by example and grow a collective spine, too.

theWalrus wrote on October 17, 2007 1:39 AM:

C'mon, this is Specters little game that he plays over and over again. We've seen it too many times. Big bark followed by subservient whimpering. There's NO WAY he is going to follow through on his statements. Trust me. Na ganna happan.

Nell wrote on October 17, 2007 2:20 AM:

Immunity should be off the table period, not subject to a deal. Leahy and Specter are offering the same crappy deal as Steny Hoyer, only it's being framed as courageous and defiant.

No sale!

anon wrote on October 17, 2007 2:33 AM:

It's been said a zillion times now but that head really is, as they say, fair and balanced. It's annoying. I don't mind punchy heads but, in part, I read TPM to avoid completely humorless news. If I want Onion, I read Onion (or CNN.) Just the usual formulation for this head--Specter Says No... is funny enough.

jimbo92107 wrote on October 17, 2007 2:49 AM:

Oh, shit. If Arlen Specter says he won't give them retro immunity, then you know damn well he'll give them retro immunity.

And I still can't drop kick a dead cat more than three feet.

PJ White wrote on October 17, 2007 3:16 AM:

Specter always takes a tough line - and then invariably votes with the Repugs, doing exactly what he swore he would not do. Just wait and see. He talks tough and then turns into the Dough Boy.

714Day wrote on October 17, 2007 4:27 AM:

maxbarkley you say

"For fuck's sake, you can't pass retroactive laws!

ARTICLE 1 SECTION 9
NO EX POST FACTO LAWS!!!"

When did anyone in the current federal branches of government find themselves constrained by the constitution, or congressional codes, or federal law, or legal statutes?
They do what they damned well please.
They know all that anyone is going to do in retaliation is flap around blowing hot air and maybe, clack away at keyboards.
They're keeping a close eye on that annoyance and listening to all of the hot air and have the smug certainty that nobody will stop it.
Sure as hell, it won't be Leahy or Specter, they LEAD the hot air brigade.

Helena Montana wrote on October 17, 2007 4:43 AM:

What everybody else said. Specter will cave--he always caves. Leahy and the Dems will cave--they always cave. The Democrats have no more respect for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights than Cheney does. If they did, we'd never have lost our civil rights. 95% of senators and congresspeople, GOP and Dem alike, are whores for money, postion, and power. And we elect them and we pay them.

Alan wrote on October 17, 2007 7:01 AM:

Yep: agree. Specter is totally untrustworthy. Leahy is a gasbag. Before they cave each will remind us that the former was a DA and the latter was a prosecutor eons ago. As soon as you hear that switch off. That is the point at which the cave in begins.

The Obnox wrote on October 17, 2007 7:02 AM:

If we're hoping Arlen will save the day, we are well and truly fucked. I'm with maxbarkly: no ex post facto laws.

hquain wrote on October 17, 2007 7:02 AM:

"If there was a need for it at the time, and if the telephone companies were good citizens and if they supplied information which was important, then I’d be prepared to look at it."

Also sprach Arlen Specter.

The way out is through the door --- this one.

gtash wrote on October 17, 2007 7:24 AM:

Spine? Specter?
HA HA HA

gypsy howell wrote on October 17, 2007 8:14 AM:

If there was a need for it at the time, and if the telephone companies were good citizens and if they supplied information which was important, then I’d be prepared to look at it. But I’m not going to buy a pig in a poke, and commit to retroactive immunity when I don’t know what went on.

As others have said above, it's important, especially with Specter, to read what he actually said, not what you wish he had said.

What he said was that he won't give immunity until he finds out what telcos have been doing. THEN he will give them immunity.

This can't even be considered "folding" on his part. He's just laying out for us exactly what his gameplan is.

Leahy will go along with it.

Political Kabuki is becoming America's national dance.

gypsy howell wrote on October 17, 2007 8:17 AM:

Sorry -first graf above was the quote from Specter. All my carefully prepared html formatting was for naught, I see.

LarryE wrote on October 17, 2007 9:04 AM:

Three things:

1) To maxbarkly, who said "NO EX POST FACTO LAWS!!!" - The ban on ex post facto laws has always been understood to refer to making something illegal after the fact. This is more a case of making something legal after the fact, and there seems to be no constitutional problem with that.

2) To RobbyLove, who wrote "Hate to break it to you, but witnesses are given immunity all the damn time." - I hate to break it to you, but the immunity here is not just from prosecution but from civil lawsuits as well. And the kind of immunity you refer to is used to get evidence to prosecute someone else. Who would that be in this case?

3) No one, it seems, has commented on the wiggle room: "I certainly would not give them immunity retroactively on programs that we don’t know what they are." So he would give immunity if he did know what the "programs" were?

Apparently: "if the telephone companies were good citizens and if they supplied information which was important, then I’d be prepared to look at it." It seems to me part of being a "good citizen" (as opposed to a cliche "good German") is expecting the government to obey the law and the Constitution, but apparently Arlen Specter doesn't agree when it's about - gasp! - TERRORISM!

sd wrote on October 17, 2007 9:06 AM:

what Captain USA said.

Anonymous wrote on October 17, 2007 9:47 AM:

Arlen Spector's office added the law that made the US Attorney crisis possible.

NCBlueneck wrote on October 17, 2007 9:59 AM:

>>EH wrote on October 16, 2007 6:52 PM:
>>Can the President pardon a corporation?

Presumably so. The Supreme Court in the case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company ruled that corporations are to be treated as a "person" under the law and be afforded the same rights and priveleges. (So, how come we don't have any "three strikes and you're out!" laws for corporations?)

Tom wrote on October 17, 2007 11:20 AM:

Bush and company desperately want immunity for the telcoms because they know if there is ever an investigation and/or legal action that the telcoms will be sued for billions in damages and will subpoena reords from the Bush administration to try to avoid being found guilty. These records will be the one thing that brings down the Bush presidency and will likely land Bush, Cheney, etal in deep legal trouble in the United States and possibly even before a war crimes court in The Hague.

larryc wrote on October 17, 2007 11:39 AM:

This is intimately tied in with BushCo's threat to veto the bill passed in the house that would shield the ID of confidential sources who leak info to reporters. If it looks like it might produce evidence for the upcoming trials of these public servants, he's going to veto it.

Kevin Hayden wrote on October 17, 2007 12:36 PM:

Morgan Stanley issues Strong Buy on Verizon stocks. Sets 12 month target at Elebenty Katrillion yuan.

Goldman Sachs issues Strong Sell on Arlen's soul.

Kevin Hayden wrote on October 17, 2007 12:38 PM:

Morgan Stanley issues Strong Buy on Verizon stocks. Sets 12 month target at Elebenty Katrillion yuan.

Goldman Sachs issues Strong Sell on Arlen's soul.

Facilitator wrote on October 17, 2007 5:03 PM:

Tell these jokers, along with the others in Congress that we the people are far, far, far beyond believing any leaders, including those in Congress. We are no longer willing to wait for you to enforce the law and protect the Constitution. We want Bush and Cheney to resign and to resign now. We have no patience nor time for an impeachment that you and Pelosi blew off. It is now a matter of protecting the integrity of the Office of President and preserving the Constitution. Stand out of the way. Do not step in front of us and pretend you are leading us. We know longer want you or need you. We can find our own way, thank you. We will now take the action needed because you have failed us, the Country and the Constitution. What a sorry excuse for Democracy and the Rule of Law you are. What am embarrassing body for Democracy you represent to the world. Bush and Cheney need to know that they need to resign. And, then this nation needs to bring them to justice for breaking the laws of the land and ignoring the Constitution.

Stephen Keese wrote on October 17, 2007 8:45 PM:

Could there be utility in granting immunity? If a future Congress with a spine were to investigate these activities, the companies and their officers would not be able to plead the 5th. That means we have to get a better Congress.

sherifffruitfly wrote on October 18, 2007 1:03 PM:

Wow - it took a whole 2 days for the idiotic headline to be shown wrong.

One wonders if "centrist" TPM has learned anything about stenography.

sherifffruitfly wrote on October 18, 2007 1:06 PM:

Wow - it took a whole 2 days for the idiotic headline to be shown wrong.

One wonders if "centrist" TPM has learned anything about stenography.