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What Pelosi Knew About Torture in 2002
As we noted earlier, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's (D-CA) statement yesterday about a briefing on CIA interrogation techniques left a couple things unclear. A Pelosi aide, responding to our queries, walked us through.
According to the aide, the briefing Pelosi received in September 2002 -- when she was the ranking Democrat on the House intelligence committee -- did not cover any interrogation techniques then in use by the CIA. Administration officials "said these were possible techniques they might use in future but [were] not being used yet," says the aide. The aide doesn't know "if the term 'waterboarding' was used" by the briefer.
No objection was raised at the time by Pelosi to what she was told were "possible techniques." But the aide is unsure if Pelosi left the briefing clear on what those possible techniques actually entailed: "Her briefing [was] not as extensive as the Post story implies."
Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA) took Pelosi's spot on the committee in 2003. It was only then that the administration told the committee chiefs that the techniques listed in the 2002 briefing "were actually being used." Harman, and not Pelosi, was briefed at the time. "Harman objected, which Pelosi thought was the right thing to do and would have done if she had been ranker," the aide says. Pelosi, however, did not sign her name to a letter Harman sent to the CIA that Harman sent that February after receiving the briefing. Harman has asked the CIA to declassify the letter, which she has described as expressing concern over the interrogation techniques put into place and warning the CIA against destroying any interrogation recordings. "Harman told her she was sending it and Pelosi agreed with that decision," the Pelosi aide says.
"Pelosi and Harman [are] on same page on this," the aide adds, contradicting my earlier read on Pelosi's statement.
There remains a dispute about what exactly that September 2002 briefing detailed. The Washington Post quoted former House intelligence committee chairman Porter Goss as saying, "among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing," which implies that the briefing discussed techniques then in use. But the then-Democratic chairman of the Senate intelligence committee, Bob Graham, told the Post that he didn't know, despite the briefings, what the CIA was up to. "Personally, I was unaware of it, so I couldn't object," Graham said. How much of this is buck-passing and ass-covering and how much is true -- and who's engaged in which -- isn't at this moment clear.
Comments (35)
kaybeel wrote on December 10, 2007 4:49 PM:"Rep. Jane Harman (R-CA)"
D-CA
Please wrote on December 10, 2007 4:51 PM:The only thing I find that tortures is
Johann wrote on December 10, 2007 5:06 PM:whiney Pelosis face. She ain't done squat for you liberals.
If thats the best you can do then I soooooo look forward to the next election
so we conservatives can put a fighter forward against her kind - i.e. someone who has got some real clout like Huck.
How about releasing the minutes of the meeting in question? Or, at least seeing who objects to their release. That would indicate who is telling the truth in this matter.
Steve5117 wrote on December 10, 2007 5:11 PM:Please: Please go back to your hole. Pelosi is not a presidential candidate, and you are a troll.
p_lukasiak wrote on December 10, 2007 5:17 PM:"Pelosi and Harman [are] on same page on this," the aide adds, contradicting my earlier read on Pelosi's statement.
actually, I think that your original reading was correct. While both are now on the same page, Pelosi had to be PO'd at Harman for leaving the impression that they'd received the same briefing...
correctnotright wrote on December 10, 2007 5:33 PM:The important lesson here is that the Washington Post and the republicans are going to try and obfuscate and spread the blame for torture that is, was and remains a Bush administration idea.
Anyone who, reflexively, starts blaming Democrats is not paying attention. They did the same thing with Abramoff - "see Democrats are involved too!" - when it was almost all Republicans.
With the exception of McCain - the whole bunch of waterboarders running on the republican side would do the same thing.
Remember, the tape destruction, the illegal use of toture and the cover-ups are Bush administration tactics, period.
Bill wrote on December 10, 2007 5:35 PM:I wouldn't believe a word she or the aide says. It's all CYA. No wonder impeachment was not an option. They'd all be out on their ass.
Th wrote on December 10, 2007 5:52 PM:Isn't Bob Graham the guy who writes everything he does in a diary? Are we to believe he doesn't have something written down and hidden somewhere? I don't.
RobbyLove wrote on December 10, 2007 6:05 PM:Well, I'd certainly like to know more details. If Pelosi and other Dems knew, then we have the administration on the one hand who claims they aren't torturing when they really are, and the Dems on the other hand who rail about torture but are hypocrits because they were briefed about it.
Fail. Fail. Impressively fail.
When are we going to start electing honest community servants like firemen and librarians to higher office, instead of these corrupt aristocratic career politicians? Throw the bums out.
Garth wrote on December 10, 2007 6:41 PM:The Washington Post quoted former House intelligence committee chairman Porter Goss as saying, "among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing,"
there is wiggle room you could drive a mack truck through in that statement.
"pretty full understanding..." so what exactly was left out?
Dennis wrote on December 10, 2007 7:00 PM:Please wrote on December 10, 2007 4:51 PM: "The only thing I find that tortures is whiney Pelosis face. She ain't done squat for you liberals."
I don't care too much to engage in a tit for tat, but I would bet you are one of the many who got a extra FEW bucks from Bush's tax cuts and that you honestly believe that Bush was thinking about YOU in the tax cut process.
And while I'm not a Pelosi fan, Bush "ain't done squat" for you conservatives except tighten the noose around your conservative necks.
You don't have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
Anonymous wrote on December 10, 2007 7:18 PM:I want to point out that Harman and Pelosi aren't exactly friends.
Anonymous wrote on December 10, 2007 7:47 PM:I am struck by the magnitude of this scandal, and of the underlying criminality of the Bush junta. "How does the crime of destroying video tapes compare to starting illegal wars premised on lies?" seems lacking in the discussion.
I'm also perplexed by public reactions, so seemingly devoid of any real context and more directed at witch hunting the oversight players than the criminals. Some "analysts" would have us believe that while the Bush junta was lying to the public, to the world, and to courts, all the while denying the USA tortures--not to mention jeopardizing any convictions of terror suspects by obstruction and concealing evidence--the same junta would be on Capital Hill informing the Democratic leadership of its crimes.
This scenario, the hypothetical of the focus on Pelosi and the Democrats, is so unimaginable and absurd, the idea literally has me rolling on the floor laughing in my pee. I haven't done that since Nixon resigned.
jw wrote on December 10, 2007 8:05 PM:Bill: "I wouldn't believe a word she or the aide says. It's all CYA. No wonder impeachment was not an option. They'd all be out on their ass."
Dittos. If Pelosi moves to enforce the law, the Administration will just post her own hypocrisy (doubtless much more than this) on every billboard. The entire U.S. government is a criminal cabal.
james addams wrote on December 10, 2007 8:40 PM:Nancy Pelosi was the ranking member on "The House Permanent Select Committee an Intellegence. Her job was to ensure Policymakers and the Military commanders are provided with timely and ACCURATE intellegence necessary to guide diplomatic initiatives. Her role in the Intellegence community was at the highest levels and when she attended such meetings as this, she surely knew exactly what was being discussed. If she didn't understand what was being said at these meetings(and I doubt that) she wasn't doing here job.
To coin her own phrase "what did she know and when did she know it?".
Seems like a reasonable question. Let's start a congressional investigation into that. Oh I forgot, she's a Democrat.
AT wrote on December 10, 2007 8:48 PM:Who are we to believe Pelosi or Porter Goss? let me think. Who is Porter Goss a former CIA operative; Republican congressman and cosponsor of the Patriot Act; appointed by Bush to unsuccessfully head CIA.
Now he makes pretty vague allegations, implicating Pelosi in tacit acceptance of secret CIA torture, saying, "among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing," What is the purpose of his allegation? Doesn’t this fit a familiar pattern for this crop of Republicans? When in trouble sling as much mud as possible to distract attention from the real issue, which is their own nefarious conduct.
And look hooray for the Republicans, its working.
Anonymous wrote on December 10, 2007 9:10 PM:Nancy "Armani-photo-op," "waterboarding-is-ok, impeachment-is-off-the-table" Pelosi. Has this nation ever had a WORSE Speaker of the House. Why don't the Democrats replace this embarassment?
lambert strether wrote on December 10, 2007 9:29 PM:As I wrote at greater length elsewhere compare the money paragraph in Pelosi's statement:
"On one occasion, in the fall of 2002, I was briefed on interrogation techniques the Administration was considering using in the future. The Administration advised that legal counsel for the both the CIA and the Department of Justice had concluded that the techniques were legal.
With the money paragraph in WaPo:
For more than an hour, the Bipartisan group, which included future-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA’s overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.
Pelosi: "fall of 2002" WaPo: "September 2002"
Pelosi: "One meeting." WaPo: "For more than an hour"
Pelosi: "interrogation techniques the Administration was considering using" WaPo: "harsh techniques interrogators had devised"
If you agree that the salient details for any meeting are the date and the subject matter, then there's no smear here, because WaPo and Pelosi are in agreement. It doesn't really matter if Porter Goss was quoted in the story, at least if your perception is that:
1. The Democrats knew that Bush was using or about to use torture since 2002.
2. Become a nation of torturers is bad. Torture is bad, and bad people torture.
3. Only now are we having any oversight, and it's only about destroyed tapes, and not about the program in its entirety.
So tell me how pointing this out is doing the Republican's work?
Ferruge wrote on December 10, 2007 9:49 PM:I think the obvious solution to this whole torture miasma is to go ahead and approve more complete unfettered funding for Bush's pet war in Iraq. At least that's what Steny tells me. I hear Harry's on board for that too. How's *that* for leadership.
Ah, Democrats. I want to think you guys are better than the Republican scum who've been driving this country into a ditch these past 7 years, but frankly, you're not helping.
digdug wrote on December 10, 2007 9:58 PM:Pelosi needs to own up to this right now. Admit it. Admit the context. Admit she screwed up. And move on.
I like Pelosi, a lot. But she's not pushing hard enough to exercise Congress' oversight DUTY.
She's made a terrible mistake here. Hopefully it was within the context of the immediacy of 9/11, and not some core belief of hers to condone torture.
I'm still waiting for one, just one, member of Congress to finally find their true courage and patriotism and admit they were cowed by the fear of being portrayed as un-patriotic by opposing torture immediately after 9/11. We all know it's true. We need someone to be willing to admit it, admit this terrible mistake, acknowledge their very human failing as an example for everyone to take to heart, and move on.
rich in fla wrote on December 10, 2007 11:26 PM:Spencer,
Thank you for your direct, no BS
retake on the issue.
While I'm not likely to let Pelosi off
the hook, this will give her a little wiggle room.
And, like some other commenters point out,
Johnny2Bad wrote on December 11, 2007 2:35 AM:there is the big Repug push back machine in
full tilt operation on this issue.
I don't give a damn which party they belong to...She (and Harman and Rock) needs to resign. What unbelievable cowardess.
random wrote on December 11, 2007 3:14 AM:digdug said: "I like Pelosi, a lot. But she's not pushing hard enough to exercise Congress' oversight DUTY."
Pelosi is a weak, ineffective, Bush enabler, who protects the corporate-profiteering status quo by presiding over faux "grid-lock" with a Democratic Majority.
Do something Nancy! Why is this Bush lapdog Speaker of the House?
lambert strether wrote on December 11, 2007 7:30 AM:Correction:
I wrote about "the Democrats knew" when I should have written "the Democratic leadership knew."
Fortunately, the two are not identical.
bakho wrote on December 11, 2007 8:02 AM:Given the way the Bush administration lies or withholds information about EVERYTHING why should we believe that they fully informed Congress on this matter? Congressional OK or NOT it is still WRONG for Bush to torture people.
When Bush gets caught doing wrong, his big whine is "They did it, too". Accept no responsibility. Hold back no blame.
james addams wrote on December 11, 2007 8:21 AM:To bakho,
SacrAmerican wrote on December 11, 2007 9:11 AM:I think your comment about "Bush lies or withholds information" is just a scapegoat for all those Democrats who held positions of power but failed to do their job. Nancy Pelosi had a duty to insure that the information was correct after all SHE was in the position to do so. To blame others and not herself is nonsense. She and others were not doing their jobs. Now she is the Speaker of the House and says she didn't know what was going on. Give the American people a break. Fess up and take it like a man.
Water boarding is torture and no matter how often the corporate media tries to soften that harsh reality in hopes of minimizing any possibility of rightful prosecution the war crime has been committed.
We the people of this great nation know darn well the truth and demand that appropriate legal action be taken to punish all those reponsible regardlessof what position they hold. That of course includes the current rouge President George W. Bush and his counter part Dick Cheney.
Let there be no mistake, every single person involved in this well defined criminal act, those authorizing or administering torture themselves must be expediciously prosecuted for their war crimes. And torture is a war crime no doubt about it!
Torture is by no means a trivial offense. It's very acceptance removes reliability of intelligence and opens the door to further perhaps even domestic use during criminal investigations.
People, it is imperitive that these people be held accountable. If respect for American law and authority at any level will survive the perpetrators must be punished according to existing domestic and internationallaw.
SacrAmerican wrote on December 11, 2007 11:42 AM:The modern conservative movement is nothing more than a united a pack of constitution ignoring religious hypocrites and corporate hawks who care little about anything but pushing their own agendas at everyone else's expense and fleecing the American economical and banking system. Justifying and protecting the illegal activity of the Bush administration now defines the party. Just in case any of you actually buy into mainstream media's version of reality, let me be the first to inform you that you folks have earned zero credibility among real Americans. If any one of you had even an ounce of conscience you would be ashamed of your party's illicit behavior and would try to do whatever you could to bring change instead of defending the indefensible. Until you collective begin this process most of us just see the Republican party as the political party of crooks and liars.
SacrAmerican wrote on December 11, 2007 2:12 PM:One thing is for dang sure, it doesn't actaully mater what political party you belong to, if you torture another human being you are a criminal in the worst way.
We can lie to ourselves or one another, but standing before God nobody can deny that advanced interrogation meathods like Waterboarding easily meet the definition of torture. Who of mankind would stand before God and tell him that doing this to one of his children was necessary?
Robert Mendez wrote on December 11, 2007 7:20 PM:I got a call from Obama's people looking for more money. I told them, until he speaks out on Harmon and Pelosi, I vote for Nader and give to Nader. Democrats, and liberals, who settle for this sort of crap, will get more and more of it. I'm sick of Dems, and Republicans are criminals; let those with expectations know what they need to do to get your vote.
james addams wrote on December 11, 2007 8:15 PM:To SacrAmerican,
The topic is about Nancy Pelosi knowing that the CIA was using waterboarding and she was fine with it until her cover was blown. You libs need to prosecute one of your own on this point, however you can only focus on President Bush and Dick Cheney. It is clear that Nancy Pelosi and the others who approved this tactic (and she did approve it) be prosecuted as well. So to YOU SacrAmerican, what will YOU do to see that justice will also be served by Prosecuting Nancy Pelosi as well.
She was the Ranking Democratic member of the "House Permanent Select Commitee on Intellegence" while this was going on.
Nancy Pelosi is the topic here. The typical tactic of the Liberal Left is to deflect, demean talk over people and change the subject.
The Realist wrote on December 12, 2007 9:15 AM:While i am disappointed in Pelosi's leadership, i and everyone else must remember that this administration has never been interested in seeking democratic approval on anything.It is laughable to think the CIA and DoJ were upfront and truthful with any presentation on torture techniques being used or considered.Anyone who thinks it was going to matter whether Dem's approved or not is in need of a proctologist. It was going to happen, regardless.
james addams wrote on December 12, 2007 11:40 AM:The problem is that Nancy Pelosi was in the position to ensure the information was correct. That was her job and if she failed to do that then she was and is the wrong person in office. If you can't see that then your Liberal views are clouding your vision. She was on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intellegence long before George Bush was elected President. It's time to open your eyes to the type of woman she really is. Not very good at her job and should be removed. Stop making excuses for her just because she's a Liberal Democrat and do the right thing. You want to do the right thing don't you?
You can't blame George Bush for the type of person she has become.
Lescoeurs wrote on December 12, 2007 12:47 PM:Pelosi should step down(Ha ! As if that's going to happen) so impeachment can be put on the table.
james addams wrote on December 12, 2007 5:49 PM:To Lescoeurs,
That will never happen. She is a Liberal Democrat and they do not investigate each other. They are blinded by their ideology. It's become a religion with them. It will only happen when the High Priest of Liberalism, George Soros, commands it.