Comments (56)

AA wrote on December 17, 2007 8:56 AM:

What did they expect when they caved in and confirmed Mukasey? The Dems aren't an opposition party.

danger wrote on December 17, 2007 8:57 AM:

If this is a three-branches free-for-all, then Fourthbranch is going to be lurking outside of the ring, trying to grab the Legislative's boots.

It'll be like one of those matches where he gets so caught up in his own puppeteering of the fight that he'll end up grabbing the boot of the wrong person (judicial) who will turn on him. Here's to hoping this ends up being the case.

Slim wrote on December 17, 2007 9:02 AM:

Wow.

I have every confidence that Jane "Feeble Gandma" Harman's (D-CA) take. And Rep. Pete "Nob Polishin'" Hoekstra's (R-MI) are going to come and save the day.

I think the Bush years have damaged our govenement's ability to function far worse than anyone realizes. They haven't even managed to get a contempt misdemeanor filed against those who ignored a congressional supeona nearly a year ago.

Why one earth would this worry Justice? Our government is disfuctional and needs to be rebuilt for the ground up.

bp wrote on December 17, 2007 9:06 AM:

The only reason Hoekstra is in is because of the NIE.

moondancer wrote on December 17, 2007 9:06 AM:

Something stinks. Hoekstra is a bush ass-kisser, and Harman a DINO. I dont trust either of them. This is some kind of theater in the style of Arlen Specter.

Duck Soup wrote on December 17, 2007 9:14 AM:

I am afraid that this new development points up that Hillary's primary experience is riding the Bill show as First Lady. Now that things are getting a little hot she has resorted to taking cheap shots at Obama and letting her husband take control again. Hillary has let Bill take over control of her campaign. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/us/politics/17bill.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

If only Bill had showed up for Gore in 2000, or to oppose this President's disastrous policies over the past 8 years. It makes me wonder what he is about. And his comment that he was against the Iraq war like Obama is, I am afraid, nothing better than disingenuous. It makes me question Bill's self control again.

Anyway, Bill is no Kennedy. His new attempt to copy Obama by saying Hillary is a "change agent" (see article linked to above) sounds like more marketing to me. As recently as a few months ago Hillary was going along with Bush to vote the Iraqi army as terrorists.

What Hillary and Bill should be doing is what Obama is doing. Talking about getting out of Iraq and starting to talk to other countries who are not friendly. Huckabee had it right when he said our President is in an "arrogant bunker mentality." And Hillary already has chastised Obama by saying she won't talk to suspicious nations unless she "knows what their intentions are." Well how are you going to know unless you talk to them? It's another more of the same catch 22.

kozmik wrote on December 17, 2007 9:24 AM:

"The only reason Hoekstra is in is because of the NIE."

"Hoekstra is a bush ass-kisser, and Harman a DINO. I dont trust either of them. This is some kind of theater in the style of Arlen Specter."

There's more to that.

As has been frequently mentioned, Republican voter enthusiasm is at an all time low. Their candidates stink, and Republicans are pretty disappointed in the party overall.

And one of the funny things about them is even when they don't like Bush and Cheney much, they hate hearing it from Democrats. And the one things that always gets the Republican base fired up is impeachment talk, which is of course bound to follow, even though it won't ever happen before 2008.

So, this gives the Republicans and DINOs a great chance to play upright citizen, while also baiting the left to get the Republican base fired up and in full reactionary mode again for 2008.

SteveG wrote on December 17, 2007 9:27 AM:

Hey Duck Soup...Don't hijack this thread. This is a lot more interesting than more Obama vs Hillary.

po wrote on December 17, 2007 9:31 AM:

So the GOP is ok with this investigation. Wonder why?

JohnW1141 wrote on December 17, 2007 9:31 AM:

1- Duck Soup is looking for attention, ignore him.

2- Kozmik is right.

3- I trust Harman and Hoekstra as much as I trust Mukasey and the rest of the Bush gang.

kozmik wrote on December 17, 2007 9:34 AM:

"Hey Duck Soup...Don't hijack this thread."

Yeah, as an Obama supporter I second that.

merryll wrote on December 17, 2007 9:34 AM:

Much as I think the CIA is guilty of torture and lying about 9/11, I think the timing of this video scandal is very suspicious. The minute the CIA opposes Bush saying Iran has no nukes, the videos turn up. Just goes to show you what a den of snakes our current 'defense' establishment is.

merryll wrote on December 17, 2007 9:38 AM:

that's why the GOP is OK with the investigation.

kozmik wrote on December 17, 2007 9:41 AM:

btw, we should still have the investigation of course. And I'm sure anything revealed will be damning enough on it's own terms.

But, people should also keep their cool and play it smarty.

We don't need Feingold and Code Pink or whoever blowing their top, calling for impeachment to pander to the netroots (knowing full well it won't happen) and calling all the other Democrats spineless, so FOX NEWS can run it a zillion times and rally the Republican base.

merryll wrote on December 17, 2007 9:47 AM:

If this situation doesn't call for impeachment. what does? Fox will find something bad to say about Democrats [when they aren't talking about Paris Hilton] no matter what they do. Basing your actions on what FOX will say IS spineless.

Alex wrote on December 17, 2007 9:48 AM:

Heard it all before man. They're talking big now but will cave when the time comes to lay out the cards...you can set a watch to it....

linda wrote on December 17, 2007 9:48 AM:

i find it beyond laughable that leahy is 'disappointed' as this administration spits in his face one more time...

i'm sure that contempt of congress citation for bolten and rove has the tag-team of fielding and mukasey trembling...

what disgusting contemptible gutless cowards.

kozmik wrote on December 17, 2007 9:56 AM:

"If this situation doesn't call for impeachment. what does?"

As predicted, here comes the far left kooks, and Republican trolls posing as far left kooks.

The bottom line is it's too late for there to be an impeachment. At this late date and investigation and proceedings couldn't even be completed while Bush was still in office, and would just hurt Dems for trying.

Anyone still talking impeachment at this late date doesn't know what they're talking about and may either be a troll or just a total goof ball.

kozmik wrote on December 17, 2007 10:03 AM:

btw, if you're going to troll under different names... you could at least try to vary your trolling style... i mean writing style, to be a little less obviously the same person...

merryll wrote on December 17, 2007 10:04 AM:

Too late? You are assuming that the Machiavellians will surrender power in November. I hope you are right, but would rather not take that chance. These guys need to be hit hard now. Their rap sheet is endless. We need justice. If you have another way, let's hear it.

danger wrote on December 17, 2007 10:10 AM:

Oops, cat's out of the bag! I'm a goofball troll for suggesting we should still impeach, despite the ridiculous stakes that exist! Cast me into the circus!

kozmik wrote on December 17, 2007 10:14 AM:

"I'm a goofball troll for suggesting we should still impeach"

Yep.

danger wrote on December 17, 2007 10:21 AM:

I will continue to be the court jester then, for it's a more laudable position.

So what if they spend the next year trying to impeach him and nothing else? Bush is the allow-nothing President now and he's wasting our time. If the Democrats really wanted to they could stop everything, have a 2 month impeachment proceeding, and we'd be done with these guys. I'd rather they try rather than sit around playing the fiddle while Rome burns.

merryll wrote on December 17, 2007 10:24 AM:

So what do we do with these neocons, Kozmik? They have committed and are committing more. They are building a private army. They are building a power base that will not go away just because Bush reaches his term limit. Impeachment would at least take the ball away, even if it didn't succeed.

Anonymous wrote on December 17, 2007 10:28 AM:

Life became so much harder to slow roll embarraassing "state secrets" after Pat Roberts had to step down.

Jan wrote on December 17, 2007 10:29 AM:

re: (moondancer wrote on December 17, 2007 9:06 AM) --
"Something stinks. Hoekstra is a bush ass-kisser, and Harman a DINO. I dont trust either of them. This is some kind of theater in the style of Arlen Specter."

I agree completely.
My recollection is that the investigation into Iran-Contra was f'd up by some GOP rep looking really good about investigating Iran-Contra... while actually managing to completely screw up the convictions.
I don't remember the exact details, but I say Hoestra is still a Loyal Bushie, so be careful about trusting him to be anything but a Bush Republican in Congress.

Harmon was once my rep and was excellent. Her grandma comment? Really sad.

John Forde wrote on December 17, 2007 10:30 AM:

Meryll,

"I think the timing of this video scandal is very suspicious. The minute the CIA opposes Bush saying Iran has no nukes, the videos turn up."

I think we need to play both offense and defense at the same time.
Defense = keeping Cheney's dream of nuking Iran in check.
Offense = exposing to the public both the document that 'Waterboarding George' authorized torture and the video of waterboarding that almost certainly still exists. If the public is aware of both of these than Waterboarding George will almost certainly go to prison.

Anonymous wrote on December 17, 2007 10:35 AM:

@Merryll

Note that with the "promotions change" in the JAG corps, the Administration is making the military services lawyers accountable to political appointees, much as the US Department of Justice is "accountable" to political appointees.

Mr JJ wrote on December 17, 2007 10:36 AM:

AG Mukasey has a conflict of interest problem already, and should recuse himself and appoint a Special Prosecutor.

Jose Padilla"s lawyers argued before the Florida Federal Court that Abu Zubaydah was tortured into saying Padilla was an al Qaeda associate. The DOJ dismissed Padilla"s allegations as "meritless," asserting Padilla"s legal team could not prove that Abu Zubaydah had been tortured. Well, it"s clear now that they certainly COULD have, if the tapes of the interrogations of Abu Zubaydah had been made available!

Now here is where Mukasey"s role comes into question. U.S. District Judge Mukasey, now attorney general, was the one who signed the warrant used by the FBI to arrest Padilla in May 2002. Court records show the warrant relied in part on information obtained from Abu Zubaydah"s interrogation. So we have a problem Houston.

The Attorney General can only issue a warrant based upon legally obtained evidence, and confessions under torture are certainly not "legally obtained". So either Mukasey was misrepresented the evidence, and would be liable to be potentially a party in those who were presented with "perjured evidence"; or he knew that torture was used in obtaining the confession and ignored it.

In either case he is unsuitable to run an investigation, as it will, inevitably, involved himself. Thus a Special Prosecutor is necessary... Odds that this will happen? Zero percent.

annon wrote on December 17, 2007 10:39 AM:

Are you kidding to suggest the CIA is being paid back for opposing Bush on Iran? Did you forget who heads the CIA? Hayden is a Bush A$$kisser and the White House signed off on the report. Their internal polls must be showing disaster in the next election and if they continue their march towards war with Iran they will get trounced. This and this is the only reason. It shows the American people the Bush leadership is headed in the right direction as opposed to the faulty information the CIA had under Clinton.

kozmik wrote on December 17, 2007 10:46 AM:

"So what do we do with these neocons, Kozmik?"

1) quit trolling.

2) For the non-trolls: We have to get a Democrat in the Whitehouse so we can get a decent AG and do this right, and we need to focus on blocking immunity for the telcoms and other private companies that have been colluding in illegal wire tapping and data mining. Most of what this Admin has done, most of the crooks, will be in the private sector and outside government. That's who needs to be caught.

3) Anything which impairs a Democrat in the Whitehouse, or impairs a lengthly investigation by a Dem appointed AG, is foolish. Especially including an attempted and doomed to fail impeachment.

kozmik wrote on December 17, 2007 10:48 AM:

"Are you kidding to suggest the CIA is being paid back for opposing Bush on Iran? Did you forget who heads the CIA?"

Yeah, exactly. These guys are some pretty stupid Republican trolls if you ask me. their comments are all so FOX NEWS + FAUX Lefty Speak.

danger wrote on December 17, 2007 11:01 AM:

annon - I'm not so sure about your analysis. While I agree Hayden is a Bush suckup, it appears there's quite a sizeable faction of the CIA that is trying to prevent an unnecessary war with Iran (Plame faction?). It's quite a mess, since it seems like there could be infighting at the CIA, while the CIA itself is at war with the White House right now. Clusterfuck is the only real appropriate word to properly encapsulate what I imagine is going on.

kozmik - what makes you think a failed attempt at impeachment is going to impair a Democratic president?

Also, if there's one thing I agree on, it's the data mining thing that has to be stopped. The private sector will end up having unlimited power, yet I disagree that we have to wait until 2009 to do this. We don't have the time to chuck out the window because the matter is really that urgent.

Things to look forward to in the next year:

- More money into the corporate money laundering pit (black hole) in Iraq, nothing for domestic necessities.
- collapsing dollar possibly precipitating a world financial crisis
- skyrocketing crime rates from a wave of subprime-related foreclosures
- everyone affiliated with Bush getting a pardon carte blanche to continue their criminal actions (if they all go into the private sector, they can't be prosecuted for crimes committed before the pardon!)

Sorry kozmik, but if they don't impeach, all of this will still continue after 2009. It's a free pass.

merryll wrote on December 17, 2007 11:03 AM:

anon, what you say could be true the CIA report COULD have been supported by part of the administration, but opposed by other parts. Cheney probably can't help himself.

merryll wrote on December 17, 2007 11:14 AM:

kozmik, you seem to be saying best not to fight because FAUX news will fight back. I think FAUX news will fold in a real fight. They already are. They are staying away from Bush as much as they can. My guess is FOX will cut these guys loose, before someone makes them give back the Wall Street Journal or something.

JohnG wrote on December 17, 2007 11:21 AM:

The Republicans would love to have an impeachment brought, because they could both denounce the Democrats and at the same time criticize Bush policies and separate themselves.

On the other hand, what will happen if the courts set aside convictions such as Padilla's on the grounds that the government failed to provide relevant evidence? That would wholly discredit the administration's anti-terrorist positoin.

Jess wrote on December 17, 2007 11:25 AM:

Who's to say the internal investigation
won't conclude with a conclusion similar
to "we destroyed the tapes because our
own people have found the tapes no longer
have any intelligence values,
or pertinent in any pending cases".
It is not for them to conclude the tapes
are not evidence in a court of law. They
can not be trusted to investigate
themselves. That's why we have multiple
branches of government.

~ Jess

jimi mosey wrote on December 17, 2007 11:39 AM:

Another indication that Pelosi's comment at the beginning of her tenure that "impeachment is off the table" is having the desired effect. Bush pushes his agenda unabated because he knows all he has to do is wait and the worst punishment handed to him by the dems are harsh letters. What a bunch of pussies...

johannesrolf wrote on December 17, 2007 11:46 AM:

the average impeachment took six weeks. plenty of time to get the lawless posse running our country. I imagine some of them will be in front of the Hague court in due time.

jimi mosey wrote on December 17, 2007 11:55 AM:

johannesrolf wrote on December 17, 2007 11:46 AM:
the average impeachment took six weeks. plenty of time to get the lawless posse running our country. I imagine some of them will be in front of the Hague court in due time.

You are talking to the air, johannesrolf... Bushco is so comfortable with their disdain for the law that its almost like they wait for the opportunities to embarrass the left. Now the new "gonzo" is on-board and the smirk on brush's face is palpable. Does anyone really think that any of these clowns are going to prison? Show of hands... No, I didn't think so. Sad. I wonder what will happen when we wake up in December 08 to the news that Bushco has imposed martial law and the brush will extend his dictatorship indefinitely. You think this has not been discussed? Scares the crap out of me.

caru wrote on December 17, 2007 1:22 PM:

cia = nazi (at least those at the top)

the whole capitalist approach to life, the whole jesus approach to life, the whole queenly approach to life and finally lets not forget the pyramid.

the debt slaves at the bottom.

the wiretappers are in the middle beneath the all seeing eye.

enjoy this awesome series over the holidays. search: THE SECRET RULERS OF THE WORLD on youtube. here is the first of the 29 clips.

_______________________________________
Series: The Secret Rulers of the World

01. That Morning of September
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAcxGD...
_______________________________________

JayDownSouthInDixie wrote on December 17, 2007 2:09 PM:

Agree with AA's Comment: "What did they expect when they caved in and confirmed Mukasey? The Dems aren't an opposition party." Amen, brother. You can put Diane Feinstein and Chuck Schumer in the Joe Lieberman camp of DINO's.

This administration is out of control and in control. I'll be totally amazed if the Congress has the cojones to do anything other than chest thump and then collapse like an accordion in a bag of milk.

It's only a matter of time before your kids will bug you for a pair of jackboots and a brown shirt for Christmas to make a "fashion statement."

Steve5117 wrote on December 17, 2007 2:14 PM:

JayDownSouthInDixie

But Daddy, all the little bushies are wearing the uniform. Some of the white boys beat up kids who don't wear a uniform to Sunday School.

Jim Pharo wrote on December 17, 2007 2:57 PM:

Meanwhile, back on the topic...

I don't see why anyone's excited about this so-called investigation or the Republican support. First of all, ain't nothing being investigated just yet. They're sort of fixin' to get ready to have a meetin' and Do Something.

Secondly, the recent past shows that Congressional Republicans occasionally talk a big game, but when the rubber hits the road, they'll line up like good little back-benchers, even Hoesktra.

It's fine for the Dems to go hard after the tape-destroyers, but why would that "investigation" fare any better than the countless others that have been launched? And, just how lame is it that we're not even investigating whether the interrogations on those tapes were lawful, even though we've had ample grounds to suspect it for years?

Hard...to stay...hopeful...

Taan wrote on December 17, 2007 3:01 PM:

Despite any public utterances to the contrary, the end game of the current Administration by its open sluice gate of money flowing out of the country and to its ineffectual post 9/11 mushroom bureaucracy is to stave off all congressional attempts to fund the many national social program extant and those contemplated in the near future. The billions flowing unimpeded into the Middle East is the prime example, one in which both parties are complicit. They could not cajole the electorate into accepting their bankrupt Social Security fix so there is another way to redirect income tax revenues. Don't expect any new future changes in the way Washington operates until both public finance of elections becomes fact and the voting system is overhauled and foolproof. If the power of the big ticket lobby can be drastically reduced, this would be a major step in helping to put democracy back into our fading democratic system.

Marvin Meaors wrote on December 17, 2007 3:17 PM:

What did these representatives expect when they approved Mukasey as Attorney General even after he would not answer a direct question as to whether waterboarding was torture? He obfuscated then and suggested his loyalties lie more with the Bush administration than the rule of law. Bush has a way of identifying candidates for critical positions who will side with him over the constituion. His success in this regard is stunning! It says something of our age that people will trade integrity for high position so easily and without question. As many can testify, Colin Powell, Tony Blair, and others, once you surrender your integrity to Bush it can not be redeemed.

Anonymous wrote on December 17, 2007 3:22 PM:

Kozmick...It is never to late for justice! Just ask anyone who was sentenced to die and found to be innocent. Regarding THe criminal Bush and his cabal So what if time runs out on an Impeachment proceeding! That fact that justice is being pursued is its own reward and if you will pardon the over used expression..THE RIGHT THING TO DO! If nohting else it may lay the ground work for a continuing criminal prosecution of the Bush crime cabal after he leaves office for as far as I know there is inherent protection against prosecution crime even if you di dhappen dto be the PResident of the United States. I would like to see an organisation set up specifically and for the sole purpose of hounding Bush until his corrupt soul finally is released from his mortal coil! Bush should be hounded from the day he leaves office until the day he dies just like they did to that criminal Pinochet.....hound him so that the only place he will be safe is his little rabbit hole in texas.

Robert Egan wrote on December 17, 2007 3:40 PM:

All these investigations serve to get our hopes up, then demolish them again!

This is a great way to increase the anxiety of the American people.

We are neurotic enough!!

agitator wrote on December 17, 2007 5:00 PM:

gee, Hoekstra wants to SUBPOENA the CIA?

How's that been working SO far?

Didn't the White House already IGNORE subpoenas?

Hoekstra IGNORED the subpoena HE got re: the Duke Cunningham case.

what a joke!

Evadt wrote on December 17, 2007 5:18 PM:

Moderator Koztic: “…2) For the non-trolls: We have to get a Democrat in the Whitehouse…”

As I recall, son, the coin of the realm has two sides, Republican and Democrat. You boast Dems can be relied upon to cure all; but the historical record tells a different story.

Throughout the Bush/Cheney experience, Democrats quietly acquiesced and/or rolled-over and died on just about every issue beginning with the buildup to and occupation of Iraq — enhancing the Unitary Executive Theory — continuing right on through giving Mukasey his DOJ/AG pass — whipped and compliant plantation servi. The failures began long before America voted in Republican House and Senate majorities…. Do you remember how it happened, or were you still in grade school?

At the time, Pat Buchanan accurately described Dems as a cabal warring tribes who only come together in anticipation of common plunder. It remains true today, a Brave New Global Economy World where Democrat and Republican Reps/Sens went up For Sale in favor with K & Wall influence — out of sync with traditional American constituencies wanting socially responsible, good faith leadership. That, son, is how specious legislation has been conducted by congressional overseers — Republicans and Democrats — both responsible for putting the ugly spin on “Compromise” — it’s been expensive.

Recently, Democrat leadership is finally beginning to hear cries of the mob, but they fail to show courage beyond occasional, safe skirmishing… they stick a toe in the water, and quickly duck back into hiding and/or cave to B/C Administration demands: not inspiring to people on the front lines. Democrats will be fit to govern only when they stop eating each other and/or the spineless are retired/replaced.

Presumptive Troll Accuser / Inquisitor: It is possible Duck Soup mistakenly posted in the wrong thread…. Further, you went after Danger who wanted to post under a different pseudonym (So what?!!)…. Then you took a cheap shot regarding Merryl’s impeachment comment. You strut about TPM as if blessed with clear vision, but drift off thread-topic delighting in provocative personal attacks and speculative truth; you seem possessed by what John Dean [Conservatives Without Conscience] referenced as the signature “Double High Authoritarian.” We are left to suppose you will next start correcting spelling and syntax — giving out grades. Notions of human perfection should be left to Evangelicals.

al simon wrote on December 17, 2007 6:29 PM:

Its time the Dems stood up and fought back. If Reid and Pelosi don't have the
courage then its time for new leadership.
The Constitution is being chipped away,
our liberty and freedom are at stake. We
need leaders who are willing to represent
the American People and we need to send
that message. Sen. Dodd is a Profile in
Courage with his filibuster we need to
support him

Leslie wrote on December 17, 2007 6:41 PM:

It seems a little strange that no one has mentioned that Rep. Wexler, a senior member of the House Judiciary Committee, and 2 of his colleagues are calling for hearings on the Cheney Impeachment. The Articles of Impeachment against Cheney were recently read on the House floor by Dennis Kucinich, and sent to the Judiciary Committee for consideration, on a bi-partisan vote.

Wexler said in a letter that the charges were just too serious to ignore, and that it is the duty of the Congress to hold him (Cheney) accountable.

Check it out for yourselves, at
www.wexlerwantshearings.com

George Bell wrote on December 17, 2007 9:25 PM:

The Dems are getting exactly what they deserve for confirming Mukasey.

d.w.king wrote on December 17, 2007 9:28 PM:

Before "Kozmik" and others accuse me of being a troll for having a different opinion, I'd like to say I was raised by proud Democrats and have been a registered Democrat since I became elgible to vote (a very long time ago). I hope those bonafides are good enough. Now to the question at hand - Article II, Section IV of our beloved Constitution is not a suggestion. It isn't based on polling numbers, political calculation (unless you're the GOP), personal opinion or even the hope of a Democratic president in 2008. It is a requirement for high crimes and misdemeanors perpetrated by the president and vice-president. And if ever there was a criminal cabal that required impeachment, it's this gang of outlaws. It must be done. There is no wiggle room. If that makes me a "Lefty" (I'm not) then so be it. Calling people lazy, stereotyped names doesn't change a thing and we aren't allowed to change this Constitutional requirement either. So to Kozmik and the rest I ask - do you believe in this system of government or do you not? That is the only question.

kozmik wrote on December 18, 2007 6:20 AM:

Like I said, the only people who want an impeachment investigation at this point, which, won't even complete by 2008 when Bush leaves office, are 1) a small fringe of the left, basically Nader types, the ones with zero clue how things work in reality and are always bleating about principles they don't actually understand, and 2) Republican trolls hoping for anything to help get the Republican base resuscitated.

dr7854 wrote on December 18, 2007 11:22 AM:

It seems to me that the leading "troll" here would be Kosmik. He is the one fighting to stop impeachment procedings that are LONG overdue. He is the one who appears to be trying to protect the criminals in the current administration. Whether an impeachment would work, or not is unkown, but it's a matter of principle at the very least. Besides, having to deal with impeachment procedings would at the very least shine additional lite on the crimes this administration continue to commit, and would also help to slow down these criminals.

Instead of worrying about "trolls," and the comments they may be making,maybe Kosmic should be talking about the true subject of this article, and stop trying to change the subject to who's writing what in the comments!