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Today's Must Read
Abu Zubaydah was:
A) A high-ranking Al Qaeda operative who largely confounded U.S. interrogators with his literary and tactical genius until they submitted him to waterboarding and other forms of torture. After that, he provided key information that likely preempted future attacks.
B) A low-ranking and mentally ill Al Qaeda operative who provided valuable information under gentle questioning, but whose confessions made under torture were useless. Much of the threat information he provided was "crap."
A is the CIA's version (and the President's). B is the FBI's. And in today's Washington Post, Dan Eggen and Walter Pincus walk through the competing profiles. Zubaydah, remember, was one of the two detainees whose interrogations appeared on the destroyed CIA tapes.
It's clear off the bat that the version of events provided by John Kiriakou, the former CIA agent who launched something like a PR blitz last week, is not quite right. In his telling, Zubaydah held out until waterboarded; after only 35 seconds of that, he gave in and "from that day on, he answered every question."
By contrast, both CIA and FBI agents tell the Post that he provided valuable information before he was waterboarded. And there wasn't just one session: "Instead, [other former and current officials] said, harsh tactics used on him at a secret detention facility in Thailand went on for weeks or, depending on the account, even months."
And then you get to the real discrepancies.
A CIA agent says that Zubaydah was a "wily adversary" under questioning who seemed "very selective in what he protected and what he gave up."
Retired FBI agent Daniel Coleman, "who led an examination of documents after Abu Zubaida's capture in early 2002 and worked on the case," responded that Zubaydah was talking before he was waterboarded, but the CIA agents couldn't believe that he knew so little.
Coleman, in fact, emerges as an effective foil to Kiriakou (who, incidentally, participated in the capture of Zubaydah but wasn't present during the torture) in the piece. Coleman says that Zubaydah was a "safehouse keeper" for Al Qaeda who had suffered a serious head injury years earlier.
Zubaydah's mental instability was manifest in his diary, Coleman says, which was "written in three distinct personalities -- one younger, one older and one the same age as Abu Zubaida. The book was full of flowery and philosophical meanderings, and made little mention of terrorism or al-Qaeda."
Former CIA Director George Tenet, by contrast, writes in his book that Zubaydah used a "sophisticated literary device to express himself" in the diary.
And you get the impression that Tenet's reading is typical of the way the CIA agents tended to see Zubaydah:
Coleman said reports of Abu Zubaida's statements during his early, traditional interrogation were "consistent with who he was and what he would possibly know." He and other officials said that materials seized from Abu Zubaida's house and other locations, including names, telephone numbers and computer laptops, provided crucial information about al-Qaeda and its network.But, Coleman and other law enforcement officials said, CIA officials concluded to the contrary that Abu Zubaida was a major player, and they saw any lack of information as evidence that he was resisting interrogation. Much of the threat information provided by Abu Zubaida, Coleman said, "was crap."
"There's an agency mind-set that there was always some sort of golden apple out there, but there just isn't, especially with guys like him," Coleman said.
Note: This tidbit reported by Newsweek last week seems worth noting here:
[The interrogation of Zubaydah] sparked an internal battle within the U.S. intelligence community after FBI agents angrily protested the aggressive methods that were used. In addition to waterboarding, Zubaydah was subjected to sleep deprivation and bombarded with blaring rock music by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. One agent was so offended he threatened to arrest the CIA interrogators, according to two former government officials directly familiar with the dispute.
Update: Here's Ron Suskind, the author of The One Percent Doctrine and who first reported what FBI agents were saying about Zubaydah, talking to Salon last year.
Comments (39)
dqueue wrote on December 18, 2007 10:31 AM:I highly recommend DKos user leveymg's recent series of diaries regarding the issue of waterboarding and torture. He proposes that waterboarding is chosen as a means of memory erasure, not for gathering information.
Trek over to
Anonymous wrote on December 18, 2007 10:43 AM:www.dailykos.com/user/leveymg. The hypothesis is worth our consideration.
From the day that Kiriakou went on TV it was obvious that the admin was trying to tie waterboarding to the ol' ticking bomb scenario. He said something to the effect that "several" plots were disrupted. That was the giveaway. It gave ammunition to Bushevik defenders and apologists.
Honest John wrote on December 18, 2007 10:48 AM:There's the real reason the CIA destroyed the torture tapes (and the Gitmo show trials haven't begun) -- the tapes showed torture is ineffective.
icondaemon wrote on December 18, 2007 10:53 AM:Remember, your tax dollars were used to torture innocent men, women and children in exchange for -- what -- exactly? So a sociopathic president and his handlers could wreak ruin on our Constitution and America's good name to line their own pockets, and the pockets of their supporters.
Weep for this country. Fellow Americans were so willing to believe the Bushit they voted for him twice. Twice!
My children, and their children's children, will sadly be affected by Bush's disregard for humanity.
Weep, I say again - weep for your lost country.
IconDaemon
Slim wrote on December 18, 2007 11:22 AM:Not to mention, that the Administration has demonstrated again and again that it is perfectly willing to disclose information, agents, operations, whatever when it suits the WH political machine - Do you really think that if they had something right now, that would vindicate their practices and methods, that they would withhold it from the public to save agents, or soruces, or anything else?
C'mon. If they had anything at all, and I mean a shred of evidencethat would legitimize their activity, it would have been leaked a long, long time ago. Really.
The motto of understand the behavior of the Bush Administration should be "Imagine the worse, then find out that you are just not that imaginative."
linda wrote on December 18, 2007 11:23 AM:the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen.
danger wrote on December 18, 2007 11:25 AM:Anonymous wrote on December 18, 2007 10:43 AM:
From the day that Kiriakou went on TV it was obvious that the admin was trying to tie waterboarding to the ol' ticking bomb scenario. He said something to the effect that "several" plots were disrupted. That was the giveaway. It gave ammunition to Bushevik defenders and apologists.
This is the key. Even though us sane folk who realize 24 is 'fiction', it lends validation to the crowd who thinks there's literally an army of terrorists poised to strike on American soil at any moment. In their universe, someone from an institution saying these things has credibility, because they feel secure and vindicated in their judgment. Meanwhile, the rest of us who sit here and call bullshit have to deal with the incoming storm of penguin-quacking about thwarted terror plots that nobody really knows if they're true or not. We've come to the conclusion that the total veil of secrecy regarding terrorism isn't really a veil to confuse the terrorist networks, but to cover up the administration's own crimes and incompetency.
I should really devise a flowchart of neo-con thinking. I imagine there's a constant feedback loop of 'but if we don't do x, then the terrorists will attack us/win/convert us all to islam!'.
linda wrote on December 18, 2007 11:27 AM:vanity fair had a very good article on the development of torture tactics (primarily by a couple known as the 'mormon mafia' among the fbi).
it's definitely worth a read. particularly this:
As Zubaydah clammed up, Mitchell seemed to conclude that Zubaydah would talk only when he had been reduced to complete helplessness and dependence. With that goal in mind, the C.I.A. team began building a coffin in which they planned to bury the detainee alive.
http://tinyurl.com/2zkg9p
danger wrote on December 18, 2007 11:36 AM:dqueue - Anybody who knows a thing or two about what happens when you deprive oxygen to the lungs, in this case in simulated drowning, is that it can certainly cause brain damage.
This is why waterboarding makes no sense. Why the hell would you want to destroy your source of information in an interrogation? I have to agree with leveymg's hypothesis in this case. If they're so hellbent on waterboarding, getting reliable information out of them isn't the true goal.
luneylegume wrote on December 18, 2007 11:40 AM:Duck cheeeny high kicking chorus girl , breaking from his studies on Lycanthropy , and Kung Fu vampire style . Amongst this brilliant amalgamation of limber limbic continues to amaze with his 'peek a boo' disguises . By merely closing his high kicking chorus girls eyes he makes the world go away . Where'd he Go !!! The ticking you hear is no bomb it is the metronome to assist his weary legs in time for his next high hatted gig . So if you have the time please donate a banana for his bestest buddy the deciding deserter and their comical dancing tour through the ancient laws museum . This weeks special is a dusty old goldy , mostly forgotten now , Habeus Corpus ! A good time guaranteed for all !
mr.curmudgeon wrote on December 18, 2007 11:41 AM:danger,
Remember, it's not "simulated drowning", it's partial drowning. We need to stop using the Bush approved terminology.
rogmath wrote on December 18, 2007 11:46 AM:Old news. See Ron Suskind's book.
danger wrote on December 18, 2007 11:46 AM:mr curmudgeon -
I didn't even realize I wrote simulated! Crap.
Lt wrote on December 18, 2007 11:50 AM:And just how did our country come to be in this ridiculous condition?
The bush crime family used the 'faith based bribe' to buy the ' mindless christian votes' that made the difference in the elections, stolen or not.
It is time to END tax free religion!
Dennis Connors wrote on December 18, 2007 11:58 AM:Only one thing to say...
"Former CIA Director George Tenet, by contrast, writes in his book that Zubaydah used a "sophisticated literary device to express himself" in the diary."
What else do you expect from a Straussian?
PB wrote on December 18, 2007 12:06 PM:I always note that we refer to these prisoners in the past tense. Why is that? Have we killed them? Are they alive in some prison somewhere?
John wrote on December 18, 2007 1:04 PM:At least they played the guy some Red Hot Chili Peppers, right? It's not all bad in secret prisons.
DallasNE wrote on December 18, 2007 1:10 PM:This just points out why it is so necessary to have an independent investigation.
All we are seeing to date are a bunch of self-serving statements in direct contradiction with each other. How can we set proper policy in such an environment. Rushing legislation through without first getting an independent evaluation is pure folly. This applies equally to proposed FISA legislation changes. We have the time to find the facts and craft proper legislation. Let's proceed on that basis.
wendy wrote on December 18, 2007 1:45 PM:Something is not right with that Kiriakou guy...I just saw him on the news AGAIN but in a totally unrelated story.
He is somehow involved in spiriting the child stars of The Kite Runner out of Afghanistan before the movie premiers.
He must be about to write a memoir or something. Either that or he's delusional.
Powkat wrote on December 18, 2007 1:55 PM:The US - the country that tortures and executes the mentally ill. Why can't we wrest our government from the hands of sadists and cowards? Not just the current administration (altho they are more extreme than most) but all of the 'traditional' polititians who allow this crap to happen and the ignorant populace that encourages it. I'm sickened by all of it. The US is NOT a civilized country.
August 2002 wrote on December 18, 2007 1:58 PM:Once again creative questioning and August 2002 interact...It's almost like an order came down at that time or something
Roberta wrote on December 18, 2007 2:03 PM:"Zubaydah's mental instability was manifest in his diary, Coleman says, which was 'written in three distinct personalities -- one younger, one older and one the same age as Abu Zubaida. The book was full of flowery and philosophical meanderings, and made little mention of terrorism or al-Qaeda.'
"Former CIA Director George Tenet, by contrast, writes in his book that Zubaydah used a 'sophisticated literary device to express himself' in the diary.
"And you get the impression that Tenet's reading is typical of the way the CIA agents tended to see Zubaydah:"
To me--with my background in literary criticism--this sums up the difference between the mindsets of the FBI and the CIA.
The FBI are law-enforcement agents whose investigations are based in demonstrable facts and corroborated testimony. They are the "New Critics" of intelligence: "Just the text, ma'am."
The CIA are looking for meaning that isn't there. They are the "Psychological Critics," who "can turn a work into little more than a psychological case study, neglecting to view it as a piece of [writing]. Critics sometimes attempt to diagnose long dead authors based on their works, which is perhaps not the best evidence of their psychology. ... some works do not lend themselves readily to this approach" [from the Literary Criticism Study Guide].
Although I agree with the CIA's MO that there are devious minds out there that need to be second-guessed and outguessed, there are more pedestrian thinkers than devious ones, and to attribute talents and brilliance to people that have neither does the "War on Terror" no good.
I'll take a solid, step-by-step investigation over the CIA's flights of fancy (based, I will admit with prejudice, on what I think is their own deviousness and paranoia). Terrorists don't seem to be rocket scientists, and even rocket science doesn't require the kind of imagination the CIA attributes to schmucks like Zubaydah.
Georger Bradford wrote on December 18, 2007 2:14 PM:The CIA tapes could not possibly show or prove one scintilla of information about torture we do not already know. Moreover, how or why, we, as a nation, torture is beside the point. Regardless of the information sought or the associated devastation linked to that information, we cannot torture. There is nothing lofty or liberal about it, torture is not what civilized, democratic and world class nations do or subject their own citizens to in reprisal.
All the obfuscation will not change a thing, if we did it and someone, anyone authorized it, that person should be severely disciplined to the fullest extent of the law. How, in heaven’s name, did we get to this place? God save us all.
George Bradford
Sully18 wrote on December 18, 2007 2:46 PM:As the baseline tolerance for violence continues to be raised each day by the crap we perceive as entertainment and the slime we allow to govern us becomes increasingly sadistic,we throw up our hands and say,"What shall we do?"And next,we mindlessly finish our work day looking forward to the paycheck we will receive at weeks end so that we can collaborate with the little lady on buying the hottest new cell phone for our teens, and the best HDTV theater center to have the boys over to drink some beer and watch the Pizza Hut Bowl,NFL Today,the AT&T Spy Bowl,the Democratic/Republican Debate & Nominee Bowl; and what Tucker and the rest of the PUNDITS have to say about blah,blah,blah.
wg wrote on December 18, 2007 3:21 PM:And then we wonder why we feel so rageful all day,depressed and powerless at night.
No truth;no honor in Washington anymore.
Oh, the CIA and FBI, cats and dogs as usual. This brought not so sweet memories of finally receiving my FBI file (after unbelievable 7 year struggle to get it) and discovering that they basically gave me 80 pages of black ink (redacting even my name for good measure) with two exception, the first page which was the State Department letter informing the FBI that I'm arriving at the university (how sweet of them!) and the last one which was a letter from the CIA in response to the FBI inquiry (some 10 years later) whether they had any dirt on me. To their credit they claimed they had none which left poor FBI empty handed after 10 years of massive efforts trying to dig up some dirt or pin something, anything, on me. Still they didn't give up, and continued in their lovely Stasi ways, but that's another story.
Carl Gordon wrote on December 18, 2007 3:51 PM:So I take it that preznit's time has been dominated by productive pursuits, rubber products, and haphazard knowledge of the stars and other less recognized operating systems. His whole house of cads is hanging together barely by a thread, a ambiguous metaphor foisted by an individual with a flute, or a flinging of baloney at clueless people (media) trying to figure out which fork to use, as he embraces the promise of alienation and it’s various gifts it has bestowed on him. What is needed is dissolving boundaries, the latest tome by the Shulgins, ethno-botany as it relates to oemlets and other egg dishes, prepared remarks to fend off media dorks and the dopey 25%, the throb of the zeitgeist, existence in the indeterminate zone, and the opportunities of his dilemma. Wasn’t it Gurdjieff that claimed that people do not perceive reality, as they are not conscious of themselves, but live in a state of hypnotic "waking sleep." My motto: While sleeping, watch. I guess I’m disappointed with the revelation of no commonality of perception, and it bites me on the ass every trash night. It’s the monkey mind, post-Mcluhanist. No one is in control, absolutely no one.
Carl Gordon wrote on December 18, 2007 4:23 PM:The road Boosh has set out upon has been in a sorry state of disrepair for quite some time, six times, and for you loyal 25 percenters, that's the amount of toes you have on your left foot. The bridge he crossed to get to what appears as a sun blasted lifeless desolate tract out in the middle of nothing (Are you sure this is the way?) is out as well, blowed up real nice, or so rumor has it. At the very least it would take quite a bit of effort to get back to where we were, as they tell me there is a sizable hobo camp inhabiting it's forlorn and forgotten shell. The Caltrans worker he passed a day ago warned him that the rode ahead is in a dreadful condition as well, or at least that's what he denies he said, as it was filtered through a formidable chunk of a puffy sickly sweet jelly doughnut confection crammed down his gibbering maw with suicidal abandon, unaware of the lurking type II diabetes about to cap his ass. And us? I try not to worry about the various potholes of of this preznit's deceit, nor the road-kill that's the price we must inevitable pay to play. Ah, but the play's the thing, wouldn't you agree?
Gas is a small price to pay for the high fiber diet of Boosh's life closely examined. Sometimes the pressure becomes too much to hold back as it attempts to escape in a barrage of born-again floppy-doodle, and we are ultimatley left with little choice but to reply to the unanswered question, squeezing out a joyous but cacophonous fanfare for this miscreant. Everybody by now has been warned or notified of his delicate mental condition, some getting more than a rebuke, others constantly thrown off kilter with every new geyser-like revelation.
So we plug along, equally puzzled by where we're going and the eternal battle with the con inside the White House, seeking freedom from all external constraints on our behavior. And ask anybody - he's definitely misbehaving! The fear of being overwhelmed by, what lately seems to be the boogey-man of his impending discovered lies has foisted an extra heaping helping of denial and guilt, inserting severe limits on his normal exercise of desire, need, and deception. Afraid to move forward, fearful and preoccupied by the past, his uneasy self-hate a way of generating and then explaining his perpetual sense of being downtrodden and defeated throughout his life. When one gets chopped off at the knees by fate, it's easy to feel defeated, which I guess is better than be fetid. The electorate has now jumped out of a plane twice without admitting how dangerous it is - Now there's the possibility that some of the original mouth-breathers will do it again, and constantly run the lousy film back over and over. This movie sucks! The springs in the seat are goosing us big time, we can't get comfortable, there's sticky gak all over the floor, the popcorn is stale and over-priced, the media all around us constantly yammer, and we can't get our money back.
So what do you think? Do you think the tires need to be properly inflated? Or do you feel like a lot of people that the resale value on this car is going to be nil?
Paul Thompson wrote on December 18, 2007 4:28 PM:I have a lot more about the torture of Abu Zubaida in a detailed timeline about the CIA tapes scandal, here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&complete_911_timeline__war_on_terrorism__outside_iraq=complete_911_timeline_destruction_of_cia_tapes
It basically confirms what this Washington Post article says, that the FBI interrogation was working well and then the CIA screwed things up with their brutal and ineffective torture methods.
YogiBear wrote on December 18, 2007 7:12 PM:They torture people NOT to get the truth. They torture people to MAKE THEM CONFESS.
People being tortured will SAY ANYTHING.
They don't want the higher up terror planners. They want low level guys they can torture and make confess. The U.S. does business with the high level planners. They are basically untouchable.
Music fan wrote on December 18, 2007 8:06 PM:Hey, when the CIA plays the Red Hot Chili Peppers during a torture session, does the Agency pay the required music royalty to the group? Or - gasp - did some CIA agent just download some tunes onto his/her I-Pod and use it for business purposes without paying?
And exactly how do the RHCPs feel about their music being transmogrified into a federal government torture soundtrack? Has anyone asked them?
What agent(s) at the CIA get to select the torture music? What other groups are on the playlist? What are the specific songs that the CIA tortures by? Does, say, Ray Charles singing "America the Beautiful" make the cut?
Inquiring minds want to know.
VNJD wrote on December 19, 2007 3:30 PM:"They torture people NOT to get the truth. They torture people to MAKE THEM CONFESS.
People being tortured will SAY ANYTHING."
Would "anything" include the truth?
Georgann Marks wrote on December 19, 2007 3:41 PM:I am so ashamed to be an American. How did we get to this point?
Question? -- was the CIA agent a Jew? My understanding is that the Israeli trained agents are sadistic towards Arabs in ways that are offensive to Western sensibilities.
When I readin the English papers that IDF use Palestinian children as target practice -- I am disgusted.
I don't think Americans understand just how much the Israelis and their American counterparts are corrupting our morals.
I think Jews are the new nazis.
John Moore wrote on December 19, 2007 3:49 PM:Let's see if a different viewpoint can be posted here...
Torture doesn't always produce information. Neither does quiet conversation or other techniques. Neither does waterboarding, which is not torture by the international law definition.
Each of these are sometimes the only way to get information.
So how about this: don't do anything that our own citizens don't allow to be done to themselves.
That means... we can waterboard. Our troops are routinely waterboarded as part of training in, yep, how to deal with interrogation.
I went through that training in an earlier when they used other less legal techniques. Voluntarily. Part of our training was how to deal with the fact that we had given away useful information, because we were taught (by people who had been there and done that) that many of us would.
As to the ticking bomb scenario, it's real. As to the "armies of terrorists out there" - that is a red herring. There are millions of people who, according to polls, would be willing to be suicide terrorists. Some of these people are actively trying. Even it is one percent, it's a lot of danger.
Those who didn't learn from 9-11, where a few dozen determined terrorists killed 3000 innocent people are bound to see it repeated. This is true whether Bushitler is in power or anyone else, because the problem is the bad guys, not us.
Why did the CIA destroy the tapes. Wouldn't you, knowing how the congresscritters like to broil people (the same ones, including Pelosi, who were briefed on and approved waterboarding starting in 2002? For that matter, would you want some toad leaking tapes to the media that contained the terrorist giving out information that still has intelligence value? All you have to do is keep the tapes and they will sooner or later leak out.
Is that why they destroyed the tapes? Don't know. But don't assume that you do.
Ryan from Philadelphia wrote on December 19, 2007 4:50 PM:Let's waterboard the Neo-Cons. Start with GW.
Chris wrote on December 19, 2007 5:04 PM:The CIA should be disbanded. Maybe Carter was actually right when he gutted the CIA.
They are so consistently wrong that the only way they should be used if we keep them around is to learn what NOT to do.
If the CIA says a country has nukes, they we know they do not. It is only when the CIA says that a country does not possess nukes that we should be worried.
What a bunch of paranoid self-important delusional imbeciles.
Nick wrote on December 19, 2007 6:01 PM:They know it is torture. When you ask a republican if it is, he dances all around the question or worse says he does not know what waterboarding is exactly! Even if you just describe what waterboarding is and ask if that is torture they dance. The man that understands it best John McCain tells you the truth. If what they are doing to these people were done to Americans or their sons and daughters would be ready to go to war.
ProTorture wrote on December 19, 2007 7:28 PM:I have no ethical qualms about torturing the enemy to get information. It doesnt even matter if the information is right wrong or indifferent.
As long as they know that the information, if incorrect, will lead to more horrendous torture, I think that they will give up that golden apple.
I just think we should be up front about it. Don't hide it, bring it out into the open. If you want to bomb us, cut up our soldiers and children. If you want to destroy our way of life - then get ready to man-up because we are coming and we are bringing devastation with us.
No secrets, no apologies.
There is no such thing as rules in a street fight - and these guys made it a street fight by sending women and children in as suicide bombers to kill women and children.
wmforr wrote on December 20, 2007 1:49 PM:I'll give you this, protorture, at least you are honest. No shilly-shallying. You just downright LOVE the idea of inflicting pain. You think of life as a streetfight.
Since I presume that you have already served your tour of duty killing and maiming for our country, I suggest you find a good dominatrix and experience the other side of the equation for a while. It will make you feel oh so patriotic.
ProTorture wrote on December 21, 2007 6:57 PM:No, I didn't serve. I was graduating high school during the first Gulf War in the early 90's. My grandfather, a retired Navy man, received a letter stating that he may be reinstated. He asked me not to enlist.
I have regretted it.
Life isn't a street fight - it is a no-holds barred cage match to the death. It has rules and limitations, but ultimately, no one gets out alive.
I don't love inflicting pain. But I don't shy away from the responsibility once it is placed before me. I grew up in ghetto slums where I watched people stab and kill each other over card games. That is real life. I am sorry that you seem to be unfamiliar with it.
If violence is the only lexicon that someone understands, then that is the language that you must use to dialog with them. Good, bad or ugly.
So, my point is - if we are going to torture, then do it. Don't play around and pretend we don't. Show videos. Bring it out. Let our enemies know how horrible it is to try and kick in our door and kill our families. I subscribe to the Teddy Roosevelt philosophy of "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick". We have big sticks, now it is time to use them.
By hiding our torture of terrorists - it makes us liars. And to me, being a liar is worse than being a torturer or a terrorist.
When people decide to behead people, kill children, rape and mutilate women and blow up innocent people based on their religious beliefs, they stop being a person at that moment and have devolved into a sick animal.
We put down sick animals all the time. We do it for our safety and for their safety. It is a good policy and we should adhere to it in all cases.