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Today's Must Read
A lot of people want to talk to John Kiriakou. After the leader of the team that interrogated senior al-Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah in 2002 -- one of the detainees whose interrogation was secretly recorded -- went public, a lot of confusion remained. Did Abu Zubaydah really break after 35 seconds of waterboarding, as Kiriakou said? Or, as the FBI's Dan Coleman and others have said, did Abu Zubaydah's interrogation yield the best information through non-coercive techniques? Very few people are sure of the answer. Many want to ask Kiriakou more questions.
Not least of whom: the Justice Department.
Jonathan Landay of McClatchy reports that the CIA has referred Kiriakou's case to the Justice Department. No, the department isn't investigating whether Kiriakou's role in Abu Zubaydah's interrogation was potentially illegal. That would be an admission that the torture apparatus established after 9/11 is illegal, and you know that Michael Mukasey and Mark Filip can't make up their minds about that. Rather, the FBI wants to know if Kiriakou criminally disclosed classified information by speaking to ABC News about the interrogation.
What's more, Kiriakou's former employer, the CIA -- which surely wasn't happy about seeing Kiriakou confirm on TV that his team waterboarded Abu Zubaydah and then call waterboarding torture -- won't confirm that it dimed him out.
A CIA spokesman declined to comment when asked if the agency had sought a criminal probe of Kiriakou. But the spokesman, George Little, added, "Separate and apart from any specific instance, when the agency has reason to believe there has been a possible violation of the law, such as the unauthorized disclosure of classified information, it has an obligation to refer the matter to the Department of Justice."
Quoth Kiriakou's attorney, Mark Zaid -- your go-to lawyer if you're a CIA official in legal jeopardy: "it wouldn't surprise me and I wouldn't find it unusual" if the CIA turned around and got Justice to open a criminal investigation into Kiriakou for the disclosure. None dare call it retaliation.
But even if the FBI doesn't look at whether waterboarding is torture in Kiriakou's case, the investigation -- if it results in court filings -- could prove troublesome for the Bush administration in other ways. Lawyers for Guantanamo detainees (Abu Zubaydah has been one since September 2006, when he was moved there from a secret CIA prison) told Landay they could use prospective disclosures to help their clients:
"This could also be helpful in a civil action seeking damages from the abuse in the CIA secret detention program," said Jonathan Hafetz of the New York University law school's Brennan Center for Justice.
Zaid isn't taking this lying down, either. More on that in a minute.
Comments (36)
brian wrote on December 21, 2007 9:24 AM:Copies of the tapes still exist, folks.
The 'tapes' were copied before they were 'destroyed'.
Keep asking for the copies.
Alguien wrote on December 21, 2007 9:32 AM:brian wrote on December 21, 2007 9:24 AM:
Copies of the tapes still exist, folks.
The 'tapes' were copied before they were 'destroyed'.
Keep asking for the copies.
Brian: you are starting to sound like "Deep Throat" with his famous "follow the money" line.
jri wrote on December 21, 2007 9:35 AM:Whom should "we" ask for the copies?
Does FISA apply here?
Could this lead to Kiriakou's exposure as an administration shill? Might this be the reason for the investigation?
NCBlueneck wrote on December 21, 2007 9:38 AM:=
It is just like the "loyal Bushies" to not even bother refuting the message and to just shoot the messenger.
Jack Linthicum wrote on December 21, 2007 9:50 AM:I could think of several people with copies of these tapes, probably on DVD now. The guy who was the photographer, the guy who "destroyed" the tapes, several people who wanted them for "keepsakes" and probably someone who thinks he might be indicted for saying that torture is okay.
Oh, yes, never discount the guy who cleans up after the tapes are "destroyed".
SmileySam wrote on December 21, 2007 9:57 AM:A Father in Ca. yesterday was found guilty of not only killing his young child, he was also found guilty of Torture and given a life sentence. I would be curious how the Judge knew what Torture was, and the AG still doesn't know what it is.
thomas wrote on December 21, 2007 9:57 AM:Kiriakou was carrying water for the bushies and other various neocons. He obviously forgot that there are other, professional, members of the CIA community (i.e., the Plame etc crew) that take their job seriously and don't believe they exist to do dirty work for people who subvert the Constitution and what this country is supposed to stand for. He thought they had his ass covered, but...
Junior will have to pardon Kiriakao, along with many others on his way out the door. All the more reason to impeach him now.
moondancer wrote on December 21, 2007 10:04 AM:It's not likely there was only one copy of each. Anyone who knows gov't procedure knows that.
ww wrote on December 21, 2007 10:32 AM:As for Kiriakou, the essential item in his interview? Torture works, which is bullshit. I still think this guy is "working".
"CIA -- which surely wasn't happy about seeing Kiriakou confirm on TV that his team waterboarded Abu Zubaydah and then call waterboarding torture."
The first key here is "team". The CIA did not torture Abu, but other members of the 'team' did, is my bet.
Who are the other members? The host country, from whom undoubtedly was secured, in one way or another, the promise that they would not not release 'their' tapes, which they no doubt posses.
Which then allowed the CIA to say the tapes were destroyed. Which they weren't. Nor ever will be. It would make no sense to. The so called discussions about WH layers saying they disapproved of the plan to destroy the tapes is merely a screen lending cred to the false story that tapes no longer exist.
Insist on the tapes.
moondancer wrote on December 21, 2007 10:41 AM:And just a rhetorical question. Do you or anyone think that they will let this connect into the White House? The best outcome might be a sacrificial H Miers or something. But I doubt even that. If no-one has been taken to task for the millions of communications they've already destroyed, they wont be worried about destroying a few thousand more.
nellieh wrote on December 21, 2007 10:44 AM:For Kiriaku's sake I hope the DoJ investigates his case with the same speed and thouroughness they investigated the Plame leak before Fitz. Chances are they won't give the FBI access to torture tapes, memos or any other thing that could or would prove he gave up classified information. That would also prove their guilt in torturing detainees and put them in legal risk.
nellieh wrote on December 21, 2007 11:01 AM:Apparrently the CIA realized their stupidity in calling for an investigation and called it off.
JA wrote on December 21, 2007 11:10 AM:With all of the cover ups and laws being broken by Bushco, does anyone really believe that they are going to go quietly into the night on January 20, 2009? Oh no, they have done too much and have far too much at stake to leave. I have a feeling that we arent' going to be rid of Bushco anytime soon.
Homefries wrote on December 21, 2007 11:12 AM:Could always waterboard the redoubtable Mr Kiriaku, see if he "breaks" in 35 seconds.
nolo wrote on December 21, 2007 11:32 AM:brian is very likely right, above.
note that two lawyers filed sworn
pleadings, and are right now averring,
at a hearing in the federal district
courthouse in d.c., before judge kennedy,
that more video-recordings (either orig-
inal tapes, or digital copies of them)
are very-likely being held at gitmo.
that is what their de-classified (as
of last night!) pleading averrs. . .
click on the link in my name
below to see the images of the
pleadings before judge kennedy.
we know why the govt. might lie,
and suggest no more exist -- but
why would lawyers for the detainees
risk their law licenses by citing
military officials with first hand
knowledge -- for the proposition that
additional torture videos may not only
still exist, but they are being kept
at the gitmo detention center -- by
our own governement? why?
they wouldn't risk their licenses
to lie for their clients. that much
is certain. we'll know more soon, as
judge kennesdy's hearing began at 11 am
local d.c. time. . .
p e a c e
MN USA wrote on December 21, 2007 11:33 AM:This guy was too good to be true. Sincere, wanting the public to know the truth...Waterboarding is torture, but doing it saved thousands of lives. So if you have a choice of splashing a little water in someone's face or saving thousands of American lives, which option would you pick?
It'll be a long time until we find out what Bushco has done to us. It'll be like the trickle down effect - drip, drip, drip...
PHB wrote on December 21, 2007 11:34 AM:Of course copies of the tapes do exist, Bush keeps them in a safe next to a supply of tissues and a supply of lube.
If you think that is harsh, consider the pleasure that Bush clearly derrived from executions in Texas. Why else be so insistent on a torture policy if not for personal sexual gratification?
The idea that the government would manage to get this particular indictment past a grand jury, let alone win a conviction is wierd. It is not even going to work as intimidation.
Clay wrote on December 21, 2007 11:36 AM:Kiriaku came out with his revelations just about a week after the NIE went public. The CIA wouldn't back down and let Dubya have his war with Iran, so the White House went after the CIA--again...at least that's my read.
This is a shot across the bow to agents that their greatest danger is from Lord Cheney.
Elc0chin0 wrote on December 21, 2007 11:42 AM:MN USA wrote;
"doing it saved thousands of lives"
That's easy enough to say. GW and this administration has said before that they adverted several "Terrorist Activity" and saved thousands of lives.
It was later found that many of these touted "Terrorist Activity" issues were just propaganda scare tactics created by Karl Rowe and Dick Cheney.
If you're so gullible I have saved millions of lives because I was able to allow a screaming lady an isle seat on a flight from Seattle to St.Louis.
Had I not, the lady would have threw a fit in a center seat, created a fight between all the passengers and caused the plane to crash in a heavy populated part of a metropolitan city somewhere in USA.
It's true. And I'm not even getting paid for what I did.
Anonymous wrote on December 21, 2007 11:56 AM:MN USA wrote
This guy was too good to be true.
That was my take from day one. It's the old ticking bomb scenario. Someone put this guy up to this of course. He had to know that he could be prosecuted. We're told that the CIA put the FBI up to investigating this guy. So, question is, who put him up to it and most likely assured him he would not be prosectuted.
vdomeras wrote on December 21, 2007 12:08 PM:tis a puzzlement this palace intrigue, n'est pas, mes amis?
Wow. An awful lot of the comments here are based firmly on gut feelings. With all this truthiness Colbert really doesn't need paid writers. He can get all he wants right here.
JC wrote on December 21, 2007 12:12 PM:This the same guy that 'advised' on The Kite Flyer' and probably saw himself as a high flyer - the real reason his wings got oiled up ??
Pollm wrote on December 21, 2007 12:14 PM:Do you believe former CIA agent John Kiriakou's open discussion of Waterboarding of Abu Zubayda amounts to disclosing state secrets?
http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=1347
.
Rob Wagner wrote on December 21, 2007 12:23 PM:Certainly the tapes exist because someone present when the tapes were made recognized their monetary value. It's only a matter of time that the tapes will go to the highest bidder, end up on YouTube, and will become the new icon of all that is wrong with the the United States, surpassing the Abu Ghraib photos.
http://13martyrs.blogspot.com/
RandyR wrote on December 21, 2007 1:55 PM:
Nat wrote on December 21, 2007 4:21 PM:How about this!! What about the family's of those who were prosecuted and imprisoned for waterboarding after WWII and Viet Nam suing the US for false imprisonment and wrongful prosecution. Or it seems that it's only when the Bush administration does it.
It was not 'Kiriakou's team'. Kiriakou was part of the capture and was gone in 3 days. He went back to the states and Zubaydah was taken to a third country. Some months elapsed before enhanced interrogation because Zubaydah barely survived 3 bullets from an AK 47.
All of Kiriakou's information was second hand at best.
The interview posted with Kiriakou was terrible. The guy doing the interview had barely a clue. His main point was eliciting the 'dozens of plots foiled.' He did zip in establishing Kiriakou's sources of information.
Anonymous wrote on December 21, 2007 8:16 PM:"Rather, the FBI wants to know if Kiriakou criminally disclosed classified information by speaking to ABC News about the interrogation."
This assumes Kiriakou is a real person. Rumor has it, the man's kind of a fabrication of sorts. Is this true?
Then again, if he "disclosed" information, that would -- har, har -- suggest the information was "true". But where have we heard that before? That's right: Iraq WMD. "Disclosures" were "classiifed" about the "Iraq WMD intelligence", but that didn't make them real disclosures.
To what extent is the FBI 'investigation' part of the distraction into what really happened?
taraka das wrote on December 21, 2007 9:59 PM:heh heh
brian rocks.
that's right, folks.
There are copies of the tapes.
keep digging. they will surface.
Doran Williams wrote on December 22, 2007 12:45 AM:It is illegal, in most jurisdictions of the United States, including those subject to federal law, to fail to report a felony criminal offense of which one has knowledge. Assuming the waterboarding to have been illegal, then Kiriakou was in a double-bind, or Catch 22 position: Either report the illegal activity, and be prosecuted for doing so, or refuse to report the illegal activity, and be prosecuted for doing so.
Of course, spilling one's guts on national TV is not exactly the same as reporting the felony to law enforcement. But it may be close enough for government work.....
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Were the tapes ever edited...?
If so, they may still be on a hard disk somewhere...transfered from the source tapes to computer for deleteing sections or compiling important sections - its a trival matter, as an editor, to make a quick copy of a file, and then show that youv'e errased the original files from the editing computer.
Video Editors hard disk's usually have several months of projects on them, to keep from having to re-capture footage when a revision is needed.
Find any video editors, and there are yet more copies...
When I worked in video production facilities, the tape dubbers who worked at night had copies of every important tape that ever passed through their hands...
Find the grunts in the video services the CIA uses...
merryll wrote on December 26, 2007 11:50 AM:The thing that's being ignored by everybody is the CONTENT of the tapes. The alleged torture, of course makes any confession invalid. Therefore the 9/11 story, which was largely based on these confessions, must be rewritten. But, since the Zelikow, Kean-Hamilton Commission supposedly never saw the 'confession tapes' how do they know they confessed? How do we? Perhaps they maintained their innocence.
merryll wrote on December 26, 2007 12:01 PM:As more and more details of the 9/11 Commission story are proven false, Zelikow, Kean, Hamilton and others are looking to blame the CIA or anyone else available for their lies.
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